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Question About Kajira - 12/6/2009 12:42:19 PM   
AislynLass


Posts: 28
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline 		Please forgive my ignorance on the subject, but I have a question which popped into my mind as I was reading various threads. I would appreciate an answer to the question as it will help me put what I am reading into context. Asking in reference to what would actually occur on Gor (not what happens in relationships in our society), do kajira submit to a man of their choosing? Or does it occur without any choice on their part, and they have no choice but to just accept it?
 
Thank you in advance for the responses.

_____________________________

Aislyn

Life is short. bend the rules, forgive quicky, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile.
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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/6/2009 1:35:36 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings,

within the novels slaves did not choose who they got to serve . they did not have the choice of whom would Master them.slaves within the books were thought of much like chattel
Of course however Gorean men took good care of their slaves, viewing them as precious property and to brutalize them would only lesson their value because if they wanted to sell and gain a profit, they could not do so with damaged goods.

So,while a slave did not choose or have a choice who she served, she did come to accept her enslavement by whom ever came to own her......because...she had no choice to do otherwise...lol...apologies for being repetitive

I wish you well,
FW Maahsatti

< Message edited by Maahsatti -- 12/6/2009 1:39:39 PM >

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/6/2009 2:18:59 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Asking in reference to what would actually occur on Gor (not what happens in relationships in our society), do kajira submit to a man of their choosing? Or does it occur without any choice on their part, and they have no choice but to just accept it?


They are, in fact, livestock.

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
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Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/6/2009 2:24:49 PM   
bondmaid123


Posts: 131
Joined: 6/6/2009
Status: offline 		Actually, on occasion it was possible for a woman to submit to man of her choosing.

Of course once she did that she was no longer entitled to any legal rights and the guy had no obligation to keep her.

Obviously on this planet it typically plays out somewhat differently. ;)

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/6/2009 2:34:11 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

it was possible for a woman to submit to man of her choosing.


He then had to kill her or enslave her.

Dating services are tough on Gor.




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http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/6/2009 3:01:36 PM   
Demspotis


Posts: 49
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The overall context is an entire planet (or as much of it as has been mentioned and described in the various books), so there is a wide range of circumstances, and a range of possibilities. There are some cases, but probably not all that many, relatively speaking, in which a woman becomes a kajira by submitting to someone of her own choice. more likely, she is forced into slavery by being captured by an enemy warrior. She might then be offered the choice of the collar or death.   Someone who IS a kajira is not very likely to have any choice in who owns her. She may be bought and sold, or given away, and has no say in the matter. It's conceivable that there might be rare occasions when a kajira might be given a choice, but... not very likely.

But, after all, an owner can treat a slave as he or she likes, even nicely! As such, a slave can be given choices, at the whim of the master. However, slaves have no right to choices... if they are given a choice, it is exactly that, a gift.

One of my favorite scenes does show a kind of choice, but it is not typical of events in the books. As part of a ruse in the process of invading a city, a young man in disguise blocks the city gate open with a wagon, and then dives underneath it, along with several innocent passersby, as his people storm through the gate. Taking shelter under the wagon with him is a young free woman of the city. He asks her, "Would you like to be my slave girl?" She shakes her head "no". So, he escorts her to her home and posts a guard to make sure that no one else bothers her. (I apologize for not being able to properly cite and quote the book and passage; I don't have the book available to look it up at the moment.)

~Demspotis

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/6/2009 3:36:38 PM   
AislynLass


Posts: 28
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline 		Maahsatti, I appreciate your clear response. It helps to better clarify some of the discussions that I have been reading. Slavery being a non-consensual state for kajirae is what I assumed, but some postings seemed to infer something more akin to BDSM and/or D/s relationships where submission and slavery is presumed to be consensual. This is why I asked the question in the context of what would occur on Gor.
 
Thank you once again for your response.

 


< Message edited by AislynLass -- 12/6/2009 3:39:09 PM >

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Aislyn

Life is short. bend the rules, forgive quicky, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile.

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/6/2009 3:57:46 PM   
AislynLass


Posts: 28
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline 		Thank you for the link, Musicmystery. That was an interesting thread to read and I am mulling over it.
 
Reading your well-written post in that thread made me think of a line from the film, the Ten Commandments when Ramses tells Nefertari that she will be his property like his chariot or his dog, but that he will love her more and trust her less. For some reason that line came to my mind from that film while reading your post.
 
And no, this is not a reflection on how much I think that Gorean men trust their kajirae.....though perhaps that might be an interesting topic for another thread?

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Aislyn

Life is short. bend the rules, forgive quicky, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile.

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/6/2009 4:09:15 PM   
AislynLass


Posts: 28
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline 		Demspotis, so chivalry did exist on Gor? Thank you for the example...it provides an interesting counterpoint in a way. And I do take your point about there being a wide range of possibilities and circumstances. From the responses already posted and my understanding though it seems the kajira's status was one of being non-consensual chattel though the Gorean ideal (if I may use that term) seems to be that the kajira would develop a deep love for her Master? 

_____________________________

Aislyn

Life is short. bend the rules, forgive quicky, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile.

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/7/2009 5:58:03 PM   
FrankAr


Posts: 571
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

it was possible for a woman to submit to man of her choosing.


He then had to kill her or enslave her.

Dating services are tough on Gor.





Imagine if Gor had RSVP, or match, friendfinder....just chuckles and nearly cries with laughter..



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Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/7/2009 11:45:37 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1564
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		Tal Frank....

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankAr
Imagine if Gor had RSVP, or match, friendfinder....just chuckles and nearly cries with laughter..


Well...for Earth Goreans there is the GoreanPersonals email list. It won't work on the planet Gor tho. <grins> Perhaps they had a Yenta equivalent?

Be well....

Malkinius


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http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/8/2009 4:02:33 AM   
FrankAr


Posts: 571
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Tal Frank....

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankAr
Imagine if Gor had RSVP, or match, friendfinder....just chuckles and nearly cries with laughter..


Well...for Earth Goreans there is the GoreanPersonals email list. It won't work on the planet Gor tho. <grins> Perhaps they had a Yenta equivalent?

Be well....

Malkinius



Tal Malkinius,

Yep the Yenta equivalent...since I had to goggle it and then go onto Wikpedia....would have been the slave traders....chuckles.

Frank Ar.


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I am just me, simple ol me.

Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/8/2009 7:33:30 AM   
Nephilim


Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		Don't forget that women also became slaves by games between villages where each side provided free women.  Then they had a match where the men of the villages would attempt to put all of the women supplied by the other village in a pit.  The first side to get all of the women of the opposition village in the pit got to keep the women.  Also, there was a game/challenge system where each side would supply free women to be challenged for.  Becoming a slave or slave of a specific man was never the slave's choice although they could hope to become slave (by walking the high walks hoping a tarnsman would snatch them up) or by submitting (with a possible consequence being death).  In most cities treatment of slaves was up to the owner, many of the characters did take good care of their slaves but in many situations punishment of the slave was being hamstrung or killed which was fairly common in some cities.  It was also a common theme for owners to sell their slaves because they were becoming too fond of them and they couldn't be held in the most strict slavery.  Most characters believed love for a slave was weakness and it is illustrated as an error that Tarl makes.  He loves several slave women and because he is too weak and like Earth men, they basically chew him up and spit him out.  A slave doesn't really want a weak master.  Also, slavery in the books is not internal or metaphorical, it is literal romanticized chattel slavery.  The alternative to being a good or true slave is death or being hamstrung as an example.

< Message edited by Nephilim -- 12/8/2009 7:39:41 AM >

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/9/2009 8:14:04 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15303
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Most characters believed love for a slave was weakness and it is illustrated as an error that Tarl makes.  He loves several slave women and because he is too weak and like Earth men, they basically chew him up and spit him out.


While this is true, many men in the saga also find their "love slaves."

We've debated this vigorously on this board before (it's in the FAQ threads). Love certainly CAN be a weakness, and no doubt, often is. Some men here believe it will always be so in the case of a slave. Others believe a man can master his emotions--including love for a girl--and still maintain control of both himself and his girl(s). Both cite many passages from the books.

It comes down to reading literally or seeing the events as personal struggles the characters face, growing, learning, overcoming. From there, people tend to see themselves and their perceptions, no matter what's on the page.

Live well.

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/9/2009 8:16:40 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15303
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Gor/love threads

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: Question About Kajira - 12/11/2009 8:26:14 AM   
Saffleur


Posts: 247
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Lenoir NC
Status: offline 		Tal Aislyn,

quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass

Please forgive my ignorance on the subject, but I have a question which popped into my mind as I was reading various threads. I would appreciate an answer to the question as it will help me put what I am reading into context. Asking in reference to what would actually occur on Gor (not what happens in relationships in our society), do kajira submit to a man of their choosing? Or does it occur without any choice on their part, and they have no choice but to just accept it?
 
Thank you in advance for the responses.


On Gor the woman generally would have no choice if she were enslaved, won at the love wars or did something that a magistrate deemed as slave-like. Her choices are to obey or be whipped/punished in some manner. Aelgifu said that she would never heel The Forkbeard but after a few hours on the oar she was an eager, compliant heeling free woman. I say that she was free because at the time Ivar had not put her within the bond circle.

From the standpoint of Earth the woman also does not generally have the choice. From the outside looking in she certainly does. However relations are more subtle than that. In her submission to a single particular Gorean man she admits that she is slave, her rights stripped and with that admittance comes the truth that she had no choice. She would submit to no one else but him. From a philosophical standpoint, she had no choice.

I wish you well,
Scott


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When we see men of worth, we should think of equaling them; when we see men of a contrary character, we should turn inward and examine ourselves.

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