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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM


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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 2:46:59 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline 		Greetings Artie,

You paraphrase....so that isn't exactly what it says?  Yes euphemisms for SM but not the definition of BDSM. Your quote refers to sexual magic but not to sexual magic being the SM in BDSM...which  btw actually stands for Bondage/Discipline/Domination/Submission/Sadism/Masochism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM

Zeph


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(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 2:51:21 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings Master Arturas,

When considering the full quote from that book:

quote:

Euphemisms for SM abound in sexual circles. If you have ever investigated the world of sexual alternatives, you may have run into labels like erotic spanking, dominance and submission, guidance and surrender, bandage and discipline, and love bondage. In this book, we dump all these terms into the same basket. Since they all apply the same fundamentals, we call them all sadomasochism. The finer distinctions are simple a matter of taste and degree. Actually, we would rather call it Sexual Magic, because that's what it feels to us. (This is not our term, by the way; it was the title of a wonderful photo journal by Michael Rosen, written in 1986, and has been kicking around the SM community for quite a while. See our bibliography.)


To me, it seems to indicate that the authors state that SM commonly stands for sadomasochism, and that they personally feel they would rather refer to it as sex magic, but that this is not a widely accepted general term within the BDSM community.

It seems that everybody reads certain quotes/books with a different point of view, as I think this topic has proven multiple times…

I wish you well,

ishy


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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 3:00:09 PM   
Arturas


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Joined: 2/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

Greetings Artie,

You paraphrase....so that isn't exactly what it says?  Yes euphemisms for SM but not the definition of BDSM. Your quote refers to sexual magic but not to sexual magic being the SM in BDSM...which  btw actually stands for Bondage/Discipline/Domination/Submission/Sadism/Masochism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM

Zeph



you are squirming again.

actually zephie, I said it was an alternative definition used by many actually close to this. I am close to it in real real real life, gosh, yes zephie there actually are goreans out there and those who use "sexual magic" skills to keep their lives exciting without hanging on supposed gorean forums and being queen bee.

Oh, you did NOT just use a web reference after asking me not too...

Oh, I get it! This is a small pond, your play pond and you are afraid of the big fish.

Splish Splash...


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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 3:08:03 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

which btw actually stands for Bondage/Discipline/Domination/Submission/Sadism/Masochism.


Actually zephyroftheNorth that to I believe is incorrect. BDSM acronym at its coinage stood simply for bondage/discipline sadism/masochism.
The inception of dominance/submission and master/slave came about way later and only did so because everyone wanted to be included cause it was the cool thing to do.

starshine


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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 3:46:57 PM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maahsatti

quote:

i was starting to feel like it was just me


LOL...nope, you are not the only one, breatheasone.

FW Maahsatti


's at the Lady.


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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 4:02:43 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


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From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

quote:

which btw actually stands for Bondage/Discipline/Domination/Submission/Sadism/Masochism.


Actually zephyroftheNorth that to I believe is incorrect. BDSM acronym at its coinage stood simply for bondage/discipline sadism/masochism.
The inception of dominance/submission and master/slave came about way later and only did so because everyone wanted to be included cause it was the cool thing to do.

starshine



Greetings starshine

At it's coinage yes, but the current definition is as I typed it......please don't make me type it out again .  Regardless,  nowhere in there do the words sexual magic appear which is my point.

I wish you well,

Zeph


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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 4:08:51 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Okay stupid question, but why are people arguing what BDSM means as in terms of the letters in the Gorean forum, wouldn't this argument be better served where people use it rather than on a forum where it doesn't mean much?

angel

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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 5:07:20 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline 		True 'nuff Angel.....I'll say no more about it

Zeph


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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 7:14:56 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings,

Indeed, The High Priest and Priestess' would often practice sex magik during specific rituals, while surrounded in a circle by the coven.

It has been practiced during solstices and while perhaps sounding quite gross to us many times practiced while a woman was in her monthly cycle as wiccans found that time for a woman to be very powerful as well and able to enhance spells using that energy, greatly.

I believe that is where orgies played a role as well considered to all be part of sex magik.anyways, it has zero to do with BDSM or Gor.
artie speaks about what is natural for women here all too often, if they would only give in and admit to our (natural) place and being true to it.

I think and suggest that if artie would just confess that he is a sniveling suvbmissive who worships women, feeling we possess power that he and other men could only dream of obtaining...that HE may be a happier and wiser male.

*grinz*

well wishes

< Message edited by Maahsatti -- 12/10/2009 7:15:40 PM >

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Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 8:28:04 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		While many forms of sexual magic have been practiced for thousands of years, and indeed in many religions was a central tenant of their religion I have never heard of it being one of the aspects of what BDSM stands for.

If anything I would imagine it would be in opposition to the dominance and submission part of BDSM as in sexual magic both the male and female who attempt to be the avatars of the “God and Goddess” are equal and opposite polarities, neither being more dominant or submissive to each other instead being opposite and complimentary to each other and so equal in power, like the two poles of a magnet being able to both attract and repeal each other.

The only time I have ever known sexual magic to be used in a dominance and submissive way is during the high mass of Satanism where the high priest always is dominant to the priestess, but that comes under the heading of black magic.

Of course others most likely will disagree, some always do, but I have never yet come across a pagan sexual ritual where male and female were not equal in power during the rite.

Cheryl

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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 9:11:17 PM   
Elisabella


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Joined: 5/22/2008
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In the Gnostic Mass it seems as though the Priestess is the dominant figure as she is the one who consecrates the priest and raises him to his throne.

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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 9:17:30 PM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

-FR-

In the Gnostic Mass it seems as though the Priestess is the dominant figure as she is the one who consecrates the priest and raises him to his throne.

Where can you sign up for THAT job


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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 9:29:41 PM   
InvisibleBlack


Posts: 865
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
We who are closer to it know it alternatively....


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
It is the most highly rated BDSM book on the scene...

I am astounded by the reluctance of the regulars here to avoid any opportunity to learn from those who actually practice the lifestyle...


I think you might have more success in persuading people with your arguements or engendering rational discussion of your points if you started by treating everyone as an equal in experience and understanding. No one likes to feel like they're being talked down to.

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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 9:41:16 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		~FR~

By the way, here is an important point for this Gorean discussion.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 9:44:23 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Cheryl,

While the majority of the old pagan religions are as you pointed out, on an equal basis, both people representing the God and Godess, there were indeed religion's that practiced a more male dominating basis.

In the case of  Zeus who was in all intense purposes to his followers, the Father and his wife the Goddess Hera. The Mother
Now while many felt Zeus was considered the more dominant and stronger of the two, Hera was indeed a force to be reckoned with and even Zeus did not want to get on Hera' bad side.

However you are 100% right about none of this having *any* basis, rooted to or from BDSM.

Hope you are well,
Babs

< Message edited by Maahsatti -- 12/10/2009 9:49:19 PM >

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 9:54:18 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..

Apparently just has the original tenets of bdsm have evolved as pointed out by the wikipedia definition..it is and has now encompassed (atleast for some) the use of sex magick as part of the bdsm jargon. No idea how recognized it is yet..I'm guessing not widely since it hasn't acquired its place in a dictionary definition but just a matter of time I suppose. http://www.evilmonk.org/A/terms.cfm#wiitwd

Just because I thought it was funny...the uncyclopedia lists bdsm to mean: Bloody Disgusting Sexual Manners. Say it long enough and it to might step up from a parody..hehe.

starshine


_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 9:58:47 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 6362
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

If anything I would imagine it would be in opposition to the dominance and submission part of BDSM as in sexual magic both the male and female who attempt to be the avatars of the “God and Goddess” are equal and opposite polarities, neither being more dominant or submissive to each other instead being opposite and complimentary to each other

Shiva (the Great God) and his Shakti (the Great Goddess) are one, inseparable, neither being greater or lesser than the other. But, there is a subtlety here. Shakti (pure energy) is the expression of Shiva (pure consciousness), and as such she always follows her Lord. Incidentally, you will find this knowledge that energy follows consciousness (with variations in terminology, e.g., ki, mind) central to Aikido and other martial arts.

The goal of the Tantric union of male and female is for each partner to experience within themselves the fundamental at-one-ment of all consciousness and all energy, which is expressed in the union of Shiva and Shakti, through a consecrated act in which they imagine each other as Shiva and Shakti and join in sexual union with their complement's living image.

There is neither domination nor submission here, that is true. But there is a leader and a follower; Shakti follows her Lord; energy follows consciousness. Such is the nature of consciousness and energy, Shiva and Shakti. But the extent to which John Norman might find this consonant with his view of the model of male and female human nature that Nature follows most often, I will leave up to your own thoughts and reflections.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/10/2009 10:22:49 PM >

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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/10/2009 10:26:31 PM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		~~FR~~
Aquaticsub has this as her tagline/signature...

"Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different." - Valyraen

i have always thought that was beautiful.  Everyone may not agree with the sentiment, but i thought it was nicely put.


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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/11/2009 1:41:22 AM   
MAWarGod


Posts: 174
Joined: 1/6/2007
Status: offline 		A apple is a apple of its seed, oranges are oranges of their seed..
The meat of the fruits are both nourishing and help sustain life. Biting into the apple or orange and consuming its meat… We may find some differences in texture and taste..

We can even take the apple and with playing with its dna make up color it as a orange
But throw the meat at the seed don't we still have a apple?


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RE: Gor vs Traditional BDSM - 12/11/2009 6:18:06 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Okay stupid question, but why are people arguing what BDSM means as in terms of the letters in the Gorean forum, wouldn't this argument be better served where people use it rather than on a forum where it doesn't mean much?

angel


Interesting, isn't it? And now pagan sex magick and tantra--interesting subjects in their own right, but strange.

Gor, a counterearth on the other side of the sun, featured in Norman's series, should not be confused with this world:



My public service for the day.




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Profile   Post #: 60
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