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slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 6:35:48 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		greetings all,

i have been speaking with the most interesting Gorean Master and he threw me for a loop this morning asking me...

"what rights did i feel a slave should have?"

well my answer was...."whatever Master gives to me"

but he asked me to think on it
and basically my answer doesnt change

so is this a trick question<lol?

i mean c'mon i guess its a given.... basic needs,ie maslow hierarchy but when you get beyond the first level into the second level ...

you start with the difference tween needs and wants

it is a need to serve

its almost a peaceful relief to think about giving up control...

but as long as one isnt abused(but whatever that persons perceptions are) and basic human needs are met...

what else is there besides service and having a good Master....rasing your family

.....of course i still would wish to work but maybe thats not even in the cards.....*shrugs*

i would like some others opinions on what they think their needs are as a slave

and i wish if some Masters could state what they feel/think a slave's rights are...

grateful ponderer this morning

be well

and thanks


_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades
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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 7:01:27 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Slave's Bill of Rights.... Automatic rights = 1 The right to quit.

All other rights are what she is granted by her Master

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to fyreredsub)
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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 7:10:21 AM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings to the Free
Greetings slaves.

There is obviously a major difference between the "rights" of a slave and the "needs" of a slave..both clearly defined and not really difficult to understand. The "rights" of a consensual slave end when the slave begs collar. At the moment of collar, the needs of the Free are always the first and only focus of a slave, whereas, the "needs" of a slave are not really the concern of some Masters.
In the real world however, all of U/us...Free or slave have "needs". As cory sees it between a slave or a Free the relationship between them is made by them not a convenient quote in the books if a going is to last beyond many days. The relations of Master/slave or Mistress/slave is individual to the two, and seem more like a "rainbow" of opinion and emotions than simply"black or white"...

There is a lot of juggling that can be done with "words"...i guess. On earth and in a Gorean setting lifestyle, as long as each is happy the "relationship" is "perfect". In the real world, life is too short to take the words of the scrolls that totally please only one side n o matter how burning the desire of the slave to serve...but this one probably has a lot to learn of Gor and slavery versus submission.


cory found some of the quotes in an old "Gorean Voice" posting that still seems relevant these days...
"Shall men be required to cater to the whims and vanities of the women? The books are succinct in commentary; Gor is a man's world."
http://www.pantheus.com/TGV/archive22000/TGV/Guest.shtml

(in reply to fyreredsub)
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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 8:04:44 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..~smiles~


I see alot of persons argue the fact that consensual slaves have the rights given to them by the laws of their land no matter what. On this I can only say...that does not fly, and is a very weak and deflated arguement simply by virtue of History showing that Free persons voluntarily went into slavery for their own reasons, and were then without individual rights for as long as they remained slaves.


From Masters household it is pretty much along what Master IronBear stated: I have the right to quit serving. The moment thought that I exercise that right..I'm not a slave then..so that sort of puts the inference of which came first the chicken or the egg.


starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to corysub)
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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 8:07:01 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 1482
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		greetings

In a ideal world a slave has no rights but this is not that world. I do not see a "Bill of Rights" for a slave but I have always developed rules with a slave. An understanding of what each expects in the relationship. Yes there are limits and either can quit.

I wish you well

Nosathro

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to fyreredsub)
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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 8:08:12 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I would think an example would be "I have the right to be treated appropriately as a gorean slave"

From what I understand, there ARE honorable and behavioral codes for how slaves are to be treated and not treated?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to fyreredsub)
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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 8:33:55 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I would think an example would be "I have the right to be treated appropriately as a gorean slave"

From what I understand, there ARE honorable and behavioral codes for how slaves are to be treated and not treated?



Just out of curiosity, why do you understand this and what are you basing your understanding on in terms of Gorean? Another question is who defines "appropriately" and who gives you this "right" in your example?

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 8:46:19 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Fyreredsub,

quick question, could you tell us how is this Master defining rights? Legally, within the relationship, personal etc?

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 9:14:55 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10836
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		If a slave has rights, the word "slave" doesn't mean anything.

(in reply to fyreredsub)
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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 9:21:09 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 4181
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
God, you are one pesky ass editor......

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 9:36:00 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		greetings angel,

Master meant within the relationship, (ie as in if he owned me) so maybe life would be the answer to your question....???


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Fyreredsub,

quick question, could you tell us how is this Master defining rights? Legally, within the relationship, personal etc?

angel



_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 9:37:18 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		thank you LAM, been awhile since i have seen your wisdom on the boards.
sometimes i guess i do overcomplicate things, this one needed a swift kick in the butt to keep it simple

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

If a slave has rights, the word "slave" doesn't mean anything.



_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 9:39:43 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		thank you Master IB

this one had learned about the right to quit while being under consideration but to fully be owned and think about having to quit gives this one a bellyache

(keeps fingers crossed, toesie n eyes too)
maybe one day i'll get it right

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Slave's Bill of Rights.... Automatic rights = 1 The right to quit.

All other rights are what she is granted by her Master



_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 9:43:04 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
Just out of curiosity, why do you understand this and what are you basing your understanding on in terms of Gorean?

Because I've often seen people on the gorean boards talk about some standard of "honorable" and "appropriate" gorean behavior. Therefore I assume there must be some standard of how to treat a gorean slave or how a gorean slave should expect to be treated.

quote:

Another question is who defines "appropriately"

Ultimately individuals decide for themselves, but there are always cultural norms and general expectations.
quote:


and who gives you this "right" in your example?

What right has been given to me?

In the case of my example, I don't think it's a right that's given or taken, it's simply true. Would we say that a gorean slave does not have the right to be treated appropriately as a gorean slave?

I suppose there could be debate over whether that is a "right" or whether it's a simple truism.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 9:44:05 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
If a slave has rights, the word "slave" doesn't mean anything.

Why? Why would "rights" somehow negate "slave"? Especially if their owner told them they had rights.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 10:34:45 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline
Hi fyreredsub,

in a relationship helps alleviate the whole the slaveminsts ideals out there whom tend to see the "no rights" idea as feminists see seeking rights for women, and this clarification lol snatches away the complexity and constant debate of rights afforded us by law etc. lol..but within the relationship it is easier defined being slave with "no rights" so to speak. Which is why i asked in hopes it wouldn't cover every aspect of rights.

The way i see it, rights "belong" to the person. A rights mentality in a slave tend to complicate the manner of slave because essentially a Master doesn't necessarily give rights to a slave because she doesn't own them, he gives allowances. To me these are very different in terms of mentality. Therefore, if a slave starts thinking she has rights within the relationship then she is in fact thinking along the lines of she can enforce something on her Master within the relationship because she has rights. If that makes sense.

When you have the mentality of being allowed something, then you understand that your exercising of such is in the hands of what your Master would allow you to do and there may be conditions and circumstances that change how the allowance is rendered and/or carried out.

This is just how i think of such. As for needs, everyone i believe has needs, what comes to pass in a Master slave relationship is the priority of those needs in a slave and the prioritizing capabilities of the Man and his wish to achieve his objective of enslaving a woman. In other words, i believe the Man will utilize your needs and what he sees as priority to best master and enslave you; the process may involve rejecting a need of what a slave defines as a need. I see as a need of most slaves within ownership is the need to be shown the boundries, expectations, and discipline under the hand of the Man who owns them, i see a need for a slave usually to be the understanding of that ownership. Without this need satisfied, there is no real establishment of mastery over her and the process of enslavement is compromised.

As you said, rights, needs, wants, desires, are all very complex within the scope of a gorean relationship between a Man and his slave. But in the end it comes down to the simple fact that the exercising of those by the woman is dependent on the Man who owns her.

great topic.

angel



_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to fyreredsub)
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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 10:39:59 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
If a slave has rights, the word "slave" doesn't mean anything.

Why? Why would "rights" somehow negate "slave"? Especially if their owner told them they had rights.


Rights bestowed by and measured from an owner are vastly different from "rights" in general. One form is universal and inalienable, the other is correlative and adaptable according to the wishes of another.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 10:41:26 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10836
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Only the free have "rights." If your rights derive from your owner, they're not rights; they're privileges that your owner grants you--and could just as easily take away. If they're really RIGHTS, they trump the owner, and if your owner's power over you is limited in any way, you're not really a slave.

I think the main problem is that we have a way of fixating on, and therefore misusing, the word "right." We're accustomed to using the word in this country because it is so much a part of our political culture, but sometimes we neglect to think about what the word means.

Edited to add: Amayos's answer, which must have appeared while I was writing this, is good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
If a slave has rights, the word "slave" doesn't mean anything.


Why? Why would "rights" somehow negate "slave"? Especially if their owner told them they had rights.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 3/16/2006 10:42:16 AM >

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RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 10:45:14 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Posted in error and edited out and added to my following post

< Message edited by IronBear -- 3/16/2006 10:53:34 AM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: slave rights??? - 3/16/2006 10:50:11 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Greetings LA

mmmm, i guess i can see how people can draw that conclusion, but honestly, i don't believe there is a standard of treatment of slaves as most men keep their slaves very individualistically and rarely do i see much overlap of standard, beyond i own her and will enslave her in the way i wish. I guess one can see aspects of enslavement as standard, but as for treatment, i will have to think more on this. In my mind a Man does not "have" to act honorably towards a slave, (even in this honorably is defined completely different depending who you ask) it is to his benefit to do so if he wishes to keep her i imagine, but i don't see how they treat a slave as having a consideration of being Gorean. There is a standard of being Gorean, and that in turn transfers to how one would enslave a woman, i imagine, and what ideals and beliefs you use when doing so, but i don't know if i would consider it honorable and appropriate treatment standard. i doubt a Gorean Man would cast aside his philosophies, beliefs and ideals of himself and enslave a woman outside of those.

The reason i asked for your clarification of appropriate and rights is in most of your posts you tend to make all ideas individualistic with no real definitions other than what the individuals want.

i wouldn't say either a gorean slave does or does not have a right to be treated appropriately as a gorean slave because to me that implies boundries on the Men who own those slaves. i would say a gorean slave will be treated as her gorean Master deems fit. In his mind, he defines appropriately which is very arbitrary in nature. And no its not a right in my mind. As you said it simply is.

interesting wording you have used,

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 3/16/2006 11:27:01 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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