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RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans


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RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 6:01:21 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

angel I wish you would just shut up and go away. Once again you are ruining a perfectly good topic of conversation and turning it into a personal attack.

i have been on collarme for a while, and most (but, not all) of this persons posts are, well they tend to be on the sharp side.


_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 6:20:29 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Aww gee mom ummm breathsome, i deleted this post to simply say --

you seem to make a habit of talking ABOUT people instead of to the person you have an issue with, especially in this forum. I know what it says to me, i wonder what it says to you.

I admit i am bitch, i am an aggressive poster -- always have been. But you, you instead like to run into places and talk about people pretty much. Personally, i would rather people be like me than like you -- i would never be able to turn my back on anyone if they are like you -- in my opinion.


angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 12/15/2009 6:25:53 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to breatheasone)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 6:29:51 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Aww gee mom ummm breathsome, i deleted this post to simply say --

you seem to make a habit of talking ABOUT people instead of to the person you have an issue with, especially in this forum. I know what it says to me, i wonder what it says to you.

I admit i am bitch, i am an aggressive poster -- always have been. But you, you instead like to run into places and talk about people pretty much. Personally, i would rather people be like me than like you -- i would never be able to turn my back on anyone if they are like you -- in my opinion.


angel

Thats cool, but i don't have an "issue" with you.


_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 8:11:21 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Awww gee kisshou, let's see you wish i would shut up and go away. Chuckles, sorry but ummm welll -- no. i haven't attacked her -- i am asking her questions and clarifying what i am seeing. But i guess that's wrong to do because well you don't like it.

angel



Greetings Angel,

*lol* I knew it was too much to hope for! I do sincerely apologize for my rudeness in saying it though.

I don't see where she was dictating to the Free , instead I see it as expecting more. Maybe as Master AnimusRex pointed out that is not realistic but I think that is something every slave girl does. I think the reason so many slaves are drawn to Gor is because of the Gorean Free and their uncompromising attitude. It is very easy to place them on a pedestal and expect more from them then the average human being walking around. Out of the total population there are so few Gorean Free people.

I think everyone has preconceived notions of what a Gorean Free person is or believes but it is only through studying the philosophies as a whole that we learn the Free people encompass the whole spectrum of personalities. It is their declaration and self determination to live by their principles that makes it so.

well wishes
kisshou

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 9:25:44 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Mornin',

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
Every manjack of them were Goreans. Real, authentic, TWUE Goreans.



I disagree with this wholeheartedly & completely. There are ZERO "REAL" Goreans in the books. None, zip, nada, zilch.

Those are books....filled with words...which describe fictional, allegorical, exaggerated, unrealistic characters from the imagination of one man. That man seems to be trying to impart some morality lessons through illustration of various successful AND failed examples. It is my contention that being a "Real" Gorean would require a greater degree of success in manifesting those morals so illustrated. The failures are not to be emulated....they are, after all, failures...

Unless, of course, one seeks to BE a "failed" whatever.....

o,O

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 9:46:57 AM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

Mornin',

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
Every manjack of them were Goreans. Real, authentic, TWUE Goreans.



I disagree with this wholeheartedly & completely. There are ZERO "REAL" Goreans in the books. None, zip, nada, zilch.

Those are books....filled with words...which describe fictional, allegorical, exaggerated, unrealistic characters from the imagination of one man. That man seems to be trying to impart some morality lessons through illustration of various successful AND failed examples. It is my contention that being a "Real" Gorean would require a greater degree of success in manifesting those morals so illustrated. The failures are not to be emulated....they are, after all, failures...

Unless, of course, one seeks to BE a "failed" whatever.....

o,O

~Kimveri


Greetings Mistress,

this post of yours, as well as posts you have made in the past makes me wonder about something, and I hope you would be indulgent enough to explain your position on the subject to me, seeing that I have a hard time wrapping my mind around it on my own.

From what I understand you have said before (and I hope you will allow me to paraphrase here) that you consider Gorean morality to be a morality in which people strive to personal responsibility and accountability - makes them strive to be "free and great."
As such, from what I understand, you do not think a kajira can be a Gorean because they do not live up to the premise of the Gorean morality to be "free and great."

So far I understand what you mean. (I think.)

Now in this post you say that Master Norman sometimes illustrated the Gorean philosophy and morality by showing how it does not work, instead of showing how it does work.
And that, because of that, not all examples in the books should be emulated.

But does that mean you consider the kajirae in the books to be examples of what it is to fail to live up to the Gorean morality? And as such as examples that we should try to avoid emulating at all costs?

Or were you talking about the examples of Free people in the book failing to live up to the Gorean morality? (And usually ending up paying the price for that in either death or slavery.)

And do you consider there to be a difference between slavery in terms of a mastered female, naturally compelled to follow a man to the degree that she can be considered his slave, and slavery in terms of a loss of legal freedom because the swords of others set somebody’s limits? In other words, is one considered a "failing" in your eyes, while the other is not; or are neither or both of them "failing?"

I wish you well,

ishy


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 10:09:44 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		kisshou, As for your apology, in the end, your conduct towards me i could care less about -- i never have held any of the slaves on the board to address me any specific way especially not with regard to a slave interacting with me as if i am a FW in general and adhere to such deference by slaves lol -- therefore, your conduct towards me and with regard to this issue is your Master's to determine, not mine.  When you discuss your decision with your Master, if he feels your conduct warrants discipline i am sure he will address it.  Otherwise, your apology is not needed to me, i have no expectations of your conduct towards me specifically.

kisshou, i never mentioned ANYTHING about what she was wanting -- whether it was incorrect or correct to want.  What i am speaking about is as a slave, due to her perception of the world around her which for any slave who is held in slavery -- its from her knees.   She doesn't have the PERCEPTION to accurately assess, determine or yes even expect different behavior from Free people.  She is not privy as a slave to what definitions they have placed upon their determinations of what it is to BE a Gorean Free person.  So to demand or expect or even want more is on many levels a slave feeling she as a slave somehow has the knowledge to circumvent that which the Free have determined for themselves.  She has judged the Gorean Free as a whole and as a slave has determined they are doing it incorrectly.

Sure every slave out there through intelligence etc have the ability to decide they don't LIKE actions of people even that of Free, but to believe they as slaves have the ability to make determinations of conduct Free should adhere to and strive for is even more so place THEIR definitions of what Free should be on Free IN GENERAL - which is you read what she has said -- she is doing.  

She would have been better off in my opinion specifically stating to specific people instead of generalizing Goreans as a whole and determining Gorean Free are somehow not living up to HER a slave's determinations of what being a Free person is.  I wouldn't have said a word if she had addressed her thoughts at specific Free people who she deems are lacking and failing in being what she deems a Free Person is -- my issue is her presumption to the whole of determining what being Free is as a whole concept to all Free and their conduct.   At least with a specific person she would have the ability to deduce whether she has permission to dictate to them how Free should conduct themselves.

The fact of the matter, as a slave unfortunately in the concept of Gor, they don't have the luxury of determining for the Free -- especially with regard to what it is to BE Free and portray same.  Her shrugging off the well they can just do a, b, or c, if they don't like it -- isn't the point. Its the mindset she fully believes that a slave's determinations of the Free MEAN something to the whole of the group.

Not sure if this is making sense.   Its what i see in her posts.  Again, it was never about her wanting more or her determinations being correct or incorrect -- its about her generalizing as a whole concept of her determining things for the Free as a slave.   The same could be said if she came on and said, based upon what i know of Gor and i am a slave, all Gorean Free drink chocolate milk and from what i have determined they should be drinking white milk because that is what i deem bring Gorean Free is.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 12/15/2009 10:23:53 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 10:34:32 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Hello, ishy,

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
From what I understand you have said before (and I hope you will allow me to paraphrase here) that you consider Gorean morality to be a morality in which people strive to personal responsibility and accountability - makes them strive to be "free and great."


"Free" in the sense of personally sovereign, determining what constitutes "right conduct" for themself, on their own, according to their own standards..... yes. It's not that responsibility & it's flip-side -- accountability -- are ALL that makes up Gorean Morality....but they are part of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
As such, from what I understand, you do not think a kajira can be a Gorean because they do not live up to the premise of the Gorean morality to be "free and great."


Some might, under the direction of their owners, do exactly that -- be "free & great". The obstacle to the kajira's ability to BE Gorean is that she does this (if, in fact, she does it) NOT of her own will & determination, but at the will & under the determination & direction of another. Gorean morality is agent-focused, while a slave's morality is rules-based. One is self-determined (regardless of it's direction, values, virtues & qualities) & the other is imposed by someone else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
But does that mean you consider the kajirae in the books to be examples of what it is to fail to live up to the Gorean morality?


Excellent question, ishy! The answer is complicated only in determining what the goal was for each specific character. If the goal of Vella was to live according to her own idea of "right conduct", then she failed to achieve her goal. If that was NOT her goal, then we must discern what her goal was in order to discern the degree of her success. Also, what makes this complex is that what we might discern of Vella's goal may not apply to ANY other character, so this could well be a process of discernment necessary to each individual character.

Good meat to feed the brain on, should any choose to dig into it. ;-p

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
And as such as examples that we should try to avoid emulating at all costs?


This would depend on what WE have as goals. If you, specifically, have a goal of adhering to Gorean morality, then emulating Vella would not work, would it? If we have determined that your actual goal -- that being something other than adhering to Gorean morality -- matches Vella's, then emulating her example would work, yes?

In either case, discovering the answer requires introspection, perseverance & self-knowledge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
Or were you talking about the examples of Free people in the book failing to live up to the Gorean morality? (And usually ending up paying the price for that in either death or slavery.)


It's a safe assumption, with me, that when I refer to Goreans, or being Gorean, I am speaking specifically about the Free. In this case that was indeed the main gist of my point. Thank you for letting me know that this may not always be clear to others. That's something I'll keep in mind to improve my communications in the future.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
And do you consider there to be a difference between slavery in terms of a mastered female, naturally compelled to follow a man to the degree that she can be considered his slave, and slavery in terms of a loss of legal freedom because the swords of others set somebody’s limits?


Indeed I do see a vast difference there. One seems, to me, a natural blossoming of an aspect of feminine nature, regardless of where it may eventually lead (not all women remain slaves forever, & of those who are freed, few forget that now-blossomed femininity), while the other seems merely the harsh & sometimes random (as in "not fair") hierarchy of the order of nature at work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
In other words, is one considered a "failing" in your eyes, while the other is not; or are neither or both of them "failing?"


Again, that brings us back to discerning the intended goal. We must know (as best we can) what the goal was before we can tell if there was "success" or "failure".

Thanks for the insightful questions, ishy. Your intelligence, in content as well as presentation, is delightfully pleasing. :-D

Well wishes,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 10:41:16 AM   
S2


Posts: 54
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

S2 -- So how often does your Master allow you to dictate to him how he should be conducting himself as a Gorean Free?



I believe I answered that question already, but I will repeat. He doesn't allow me to dictate his behaviour.

quote:


Gorean aside, you are his slave and therefore he is Free. You stated pretty much you don't and more than likely wouldn't. And have now changed it to admit you do. Whether you understand it or not, it really does explain a lot.

See i didn't believe you when you stated you don't initially. You were way to comfortable dictating to the to general Free on how they should conduct themselves. That comfortableness is not a result of a slave of a Man who doesn't apply same regularly or who gets negative or boundries set with regard to same.


Perhaps the confusion here is the difference between making a statement and to dictate. If I understand correctly, to dictate is to give instructions and expect it to be followed. I have no delusions about my words being obeyed as if they are commands, and my Master certainly won't allow himself to be told what to do if he disagreed with me.

What I am doing here is making a statement. I exposed my words for public viewing, possible criticism, and hopefully constructive discussion.

I make no demands, but I can still hope.

quote:


Thanks for the clarification. I said it sucks to be a slave before, it does. Why should i hide you. I have no issue with what you have said lol, however, i did want to point out to you the irony of your own behavior as a slave. grins, you speak as if your words are truth and your perception as a slave in how free should conduct themselves is the truth of Free but more importantly - you are missing why your perceptoin is flawed simply because you ARE a slave hinders your ability to accurately determine what should be the behavior of Free.


I had thought I tried to emphasize in my writing that my words are my thoughts and understanding, as opposed to statements of truth. If I need to increase my efforts on that front, I will do so.

On the other hand, I would think that I can state with reasonable accuracy my own motivations. In that sense, perhaps some of my words are indeed truth. But I could be wrong. Many believe in the existance of a subconscious mind, and as such, I might not be able to fully fathom my own actions. If you are an expert in that field, please enlighten me.

quote:


If you want to discuss it, let me know.

angel


Yes, please point out my blind spots and flaws in my reasoning.

quote:


She would have been better off in my opinion specifically stating to specific people instead of generalizing Goreans as a whole and determining Gorean Free are somehow not living up to HER a slave's determinations of what being a Free person is.


If the general consensus is that I should list specific names and examples, I am willing to do so. However, I believe that falls in the realm of personal attacks.



< Message edited by S2 -- 12/15/2009 10:43:34 AM >

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 11:37:30 AM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline 		S2, I am truly sorry if I take this too far off topic, but this tread has inspired some new questions and ideas in me. If you would prefer to not have them discussed here, please let me know, and I will be more than happy to take them to a different space. But as of for now, I am not sure this small derailment is worthy of its own tread so I hope you do not mind me imposing on yours.

Greetings Mistress,

Thank you for your reply, it helped me a lot; and, at the same time, as usual, also just made things more complicated...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

"Free" in the sense of personally sovereign, determining what constitutes "right conduct" for themself, on their own, according to their own standards..... yes. It's not that responsibility & it's flip-side -- accountability -- are ALL that makes up Gorean Morality....but they are part of it.


Some might, under the direction of their owners, do exactly that -- be "free & great". The obstacle to the kajira's ability to BE Gorean is that she does this (if, in fact, she does it) NOT of her own will & determination, but at the will & under the determination & direction of another. Gorean morality is agent-focused, while a slave's morality is rules-based. One is self-determined (regardless of it's direction, values, virtues & qualities) & the other is imposed by someone else.



Thank you for clarifying what I was trying to express. A lot of these concepts are very manageable for me to understand on an emotional and intuitive level, because they feel so natural to me, but I still often fail to cohesively express my intellectual understanding of them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
But does that mean you consider the kajirae in the books to be examples of what it is to fail to live up to the Gorean morality?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri
Excellent question, ishy! The answer is complicated only in determining what the goal was for each specific character. If the goal of Vella was to live according to her own idea of "right conduct", then she failed to achieve her goal. If that was NOT her goal, then we must discern what her goal was in order to discern the degree of her success. Also, what makes this complex is that what we might discern of Vella's goal may not apply to ANY other character, so this could well be a process of discernment necessary to each individual character.

Good meat to feed the brain on, should any choose to dig into it. ;-p



Well I hope you don't mind me digging into it then...

- Gorean morality is agent-based, so only a person living by the beat of their own drum could ever be considered to live by the Gorean morality.

- Mastery over a person, is a rule-based process, so a person mastered by another fails to live by the Gorean morality. At the same time, though, they might achieve their personal goal of being their best selves ("free and great") because the best way for them to achieve freedom and greatness is under the ruling of somebody they consider to be a "leader," "better," "superior," "more capable," than themselves.

- Slavery, in a legal context, has no influence over which morality a person lives by (and thus no influence on if a person is Gorean or not) because if somebody with an agent-based morality legally gets enslaved, they could still live life on their own terms, even if they choose to follow the rules their captors impose on them because they consider that to be their best choice at the present time. (Either in terms of planning an escape; or in a slavery that is honor bound, like Tarl had when he first met the Red Savages.)

- Failing to achieve personal goals is measured by absolute opposites in a person living an agent-based morality (because their failing is defined by them accepting a rule being forced upon them) versus a person living a rule-based morality (because they fail if they rebel against accepting the rules which they are actively trying to adhere to.)

Did that make any sense at all, or am I trying to dissect things too much?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
And as such as examples that we should try to avoid emulating at all costs?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

This would depend on what WE have as goals. If you, specifically, have a goal of adhering to Gorean morality, then emulating Vella would not work, would it? If we have determined that your actual goal -- that being something other than adhering to Gorean morality -- matches Vella's, then emulating her example would work, yes?

In either case, discovering the answer requires introspection, perseverance & self-knowledge.



So at which point does somebody know, either in a fictional character, or in ourselves or other people, if the goal is to live by an agent- or a rule-based morality?
Can there ever be a blur of both of them present in one person at the same time?

Does a person have to live fully under a rule-based morality in order for mastery to be possible, or is it possible for a person with an agent-based morality to actively decide that slavery/mastery/complete deference to the will of another is the best possible choice at the time being? Would such a person truly be mastered or not?
At what level of deference can we speak of mastery, instead of speaking of self-mastery of a person living an agent-based morality making the choice to defer to another (kinda like a soldier would in some regards, I supposed.)
Is it possible for a person who lived by an agent-based morality to accept a rule-based morality imposed by another in some cases, while all the while still remaining in a general not-mastered state?

Is it possible for people to change from one morality to the other?
Has "slave" becoming a free woman because she decided she no longer wants to live under a rule-based morality always had an agent-based morality to begin with? And if she had, has she ever really been mastered?
And if not, is it possible for a person truly living under an agent-based morality to be mastered and revert to an absolute rule-based morality?

I guess all these questions fall back to two simple questions: how and where does one draw the line to distinguish between the both moralities?
And IS there even a line in the sand between the both to begin with, or do they fade into each other, leaving a medium situation in the middle?

I wish you well,

ishy




< Message edited by ishyB -- 12/15/2009 11:53:26 AM >

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 12:09:13 PM   
S2


Posts: 54
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

S2, I am truly sorry if I take this too far off topic, but this tread has inspired some new questions and ideas in me. If you would prefer to not have them discussed here, please let me know, and I will be more than happy to take them to a different space. But as of for now, I am not sure this small derailment is worthy of its own tread so I hope you do not mind me imposing on yours.


No worries :) meaningful discussion is always good :)

quote:


So at which point does somebody know, either in a fictional character, or in ourselves or other people, if the goal is to live by an agent- or a rule-based morality?
Can there ever be a blur of both of them present in one person at the same time?


And if I may add, I think it can certainly be very blurry. One can strive to live by one or the other, but I am not sure if anyone is able to function 100% within one or the other.

B.F. Skinner would argue there is no such thing as free will, and Freud have much to say about the influence of the subconscious on our behaviour.

On the other hand, we as rational conscious beings like to think that we are fully aware of our motivations and are in full control of our faculties.

I am not sure if we will ever become 100% self-aware. It would certainly be a most impressive mind that can claim so in all truth and honesty. In all other cases, it might be akin to a drunk saying "I am not drunk."

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 1:32:08 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: S2

And if I may add, I think it can certainly be very blurry. One can strive to live by one or the other, but I am not sure if anyone is able to function 100% within one or the other.

B.F. Skinner would argue there is no such thing as free will, and Freud have much to say about the influence of the subconscious on our behaviour.

On the other hand, we as rational conscious beings like to think that we are fully aware of our motivations and are in full control of our faculties.

I am not sure if we will ever become 100% self-aware. It would certainly be a most impressive mind that can claim so in all truth and honesty. In all other cases, it might be akin to a drunk saying "I am not drunk."


Greetings S2,

I understand where you are going with this, but I am not sure if it is so much a matter of subconscious motivations for our own decisions as it is a matter of concisely defining your own stand in life and sticking to that or not.

I mean, all our decisions are inspired by the circumstances we live in, but it is one thing to let life happen to you, and quite another to take an active control to bend your circumstances to something that is preferable to you.
I guess I see the distinction between a rule- and an agent-based morality more in that light than in the light of the motivation we have to do either.

To make things more concrete:

Say a woman is living as a slave to a man, presumable in a mastered context.
She and him have never discussed a certain topic, like say for instance, being pro or against abortion.

If she is his mastered woman, and her goal in life is to be such, then when considering the topic of abortion she should try to deduct for herself what HIS opinion on the matter would be, to find out her own opinion on the matter.
This is because, as a mastered woman, her goal is a rule-based morality in which she bends her world view to fit his opinion of things.

Now, let’s say that her initial reaction to considering the topic is NOT trying to figure out what he would think about it, but instead, she tries to figure out what she personally feels about it.
When doing that, she is in fact exercising and agent-based way of approaching the topic, because she is trying to figure out her feelings on it, regardless of his.

After, thinking about it, she discovers her own feelings about the subject at which point several things can happen:

A - She agrees with his view, and maintains her feelings on the subject based on the fact that she feels the same way he does. (Remains agent-based.)
B - She agrees with his view, but transforms her agreement with him from being an individual agreement to being obedient to his view, and trying to agree from and for his reasons, instead of her own. (Becomes rule-based.)
C - She disagrees with his view, and maintains her disagreement, regardless of his effort, or lack of effort to try to reshape her view. (Remains agent-based.)
D - She disagrees with his view, but tries to emulate his point of view, either in thought, behavior or both, regardless of his effort or lack of effort to try to reshape her view. (????)

It is D when things become blurry for me because of the different implications the different nuanced of the intent of both people in the example.
- If she disagrees with him, but tries to emulate his point of view, in thought and in behavior, under pressure of his effort of trying to make her change, she is obviously being mastered.
- But if she disagrees with him and tried to emulate his point of view, only in behavior, but not in thought (disagrees but does what he says), under pressure of his. Is she then still mastered? Even if the pressure he poses is a thing like a death-threat?

To make it even more complicated:
- If she disagrees and tries to emulate his point of view, either in thought or in behavior, without his pressure to do so, (in other words, she tries to change to please him, even if he does not actively make her do it,) is she then still mastered?

It seems that, in that last example she is a person acting under an agent-based morality (making the personal choice to do something) choosing to act as if she was living under a rule-based morality.
But if her actions are to live under a rule-based morality, even if she made the free choice to do so, does that really count as her having an agent-based morality?

And to make it even worse, does the fact that she even tried to figure out what she wanted/felt about the subject means that she has been living an agent-based morality all along, because if she was truly reacting to a rule-based mastery, would the question of what she wanted/felt even have had any importance to begin with?

There are just so many shades of grey in this that it becomes hard to distinguish what is what.
Sometimes I have to agree with Master Musicmystery, it might not even be worth the effort to consider all this, because sometimes things just are what they are.
But at the same time, it's still just so much fun.

I wish you well,

ishy


< Message edited by ishyB -- 12/15/2009 1:35:11 PM >

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to S2)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 2:26:00 PM   
S2


Posts: 54
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

It is D when things become blurry for me because of the different implications the different nuanced of the intent of both people in the example.


That is actually why I brought up the possibilities of hidden factors in motivation. We can never say for sure why people chose to do the things they do. And even for ourselves, we can try, but everyone have blind spots.

I guess what I am trying to say is that ultimately we just don't know, at least not without some very thorough introspection. Which it seems you have already done plenty of :)

quote:


There are just so many shades of grey in this that it becomes hard to distinguish what is what.
Sometimes I have to agree with Master Musicmystery, it might not even be worth the effort to consider all this, because sometimes things just are what they are.
But at the same time, it's still just so much fun.

I wish you well,

ishy



And I agree its fun to think on these things, its like poking and shaking a Christmas present, even if we are never allowed to open it :)

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/15/2009 2:41:40 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..

I do love your mind ishyB.

I remember some years back taking a subject matter (of which I do not now recall) to this extreme trying to fester out something concrete regardless of the direction it actually went. I can not quote exact words told me by Master Leonidas but the jest of his words that stuck with me was that..in my bid to find this absoluteness I had and was doing the opposite to the point where nothing could ever be accepted as truth and have meaning.

I can't really go down that path as to what morality truth each thing would be. What I do know or have come to understand for myself based on the life I have.. is that obedience is the goal.
How I arrived at it or the ease to which I do changes over time, and always will.

well wishes

starshine


_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/16/2009 9:33:02 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings girl,

I feel I should do this, for better or worse.

  Believe me, you will indeed get the best of both *smirks*

quote:


I had found, in the reading of the books, that Gorean culture to be vibrant and lively, not lacking in the passion for life. No doubt it can be often be harsh and brutal, but despite the hardships it has not became bitter and cynical.


Goreans are indeed extremely passionate about their beliefs, opinions and views and do not mind sharing and expressing that passion whenever the urge strikes them to.
However, that passion can and does quite frequently infact turn brutal and harsh and has certainly turned bitter and cynical, that is not anything new or surprising and it was so in the books as well.Perhaps not as frequently or pronounced as when dealing with real people rather then fictional characters printed in black and white, but it is still a fact more times then not, expected to be seen.

Why?, well, because Goreans have no hesitation in telling it like it is, whether you like it or not and people who are not Gorean are often taken aback by this. Something that most Goreans could give a fig over either...lol


quote:



I admit that a large portion of my difficulties are likely the results of tendencies in my own behaviour.


     I would agree.
Personally, your manner has not offended me as a Free as of yet, most likely due to the fact that you opened with a statement of being aware that your words could go badly wrong for you or could go well...depending on how you carried yourself through the rest of your post.IMO, you walked a thin line, but managed to maintain respect. You were straightforward and did not sugar coat things..a trait I admire whether from a Free or a slave, providing the slave knows wh ere to draw the line.
You came dangerously close to over stepping yours, by suggesting to Free how they should behave and what you expect from them.
Gorean Free, at least from my observations and I will speak for myself here only, do NOT much care what you *as a slave* expects from me nor would any of your suggestions make any impact on me save for what I allowed it to.

quote:


On the other hand, regrettably, as I do love Gor, and please forgive me for saying so, some of those who call themselves Goreans are among the most narrow-minded, hostile people I have ever encountered. Granted, there are idiots everywhere. However, it seems that it is among those who call themselves Goreans that I encounter those who seem to be well read, and consider themselves intellectuals, who are at the same time seem to be incomprehensibly rigid in their thinking, and blind to their own short comings.


  Again, you are a slave and it matters little or as much as the free allow it to matter, what you think and feel, as well you presume to know what is acceptable behavior from Free and what is not. Not a right any slave has the option to exercise.

I also agree that Goreans enjoy a slave who has a brain and knows how to use it.
I can not think of anyone, whom I know anyways, who would want a mindless git in their service.



quote:



Perhaps I have high hopes for those who would call themselves Goreans.



    Personally, I find nothing wrong in that. I have always strongly felt the same way.
Goreans indeed have and set high standards.
However, being a Free I have the right to express as much.
You being a slave, does not. The same was true when I was a slave, ages ago...I kept my mouth shut and spoke when appropriate and or when given permission to and then only said what I felt, after given permission to share with the Free more then just a passing comment.

Perhaps you may take some time to ponder what I have said and perhaps you will not, but do understand there is the right way to go about things and a wrong way. You walked a thin line here as I stated earlier, IMO anyways. However, I do not feel you fell on your face either.

serve and be well,
Mistress Maahsatti




_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to S2)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/16/2009 2:30:42 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Hello, ishy,

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
- Slavery, in a legal context, has no influence over which morality a person lives by (and thus no influence on if a person is Gorean or not) because if somebody with an agent-based morality legally gets enslaved, they could still live life on their own terms, even if they choose to follow the rules their captors impose on them because they consider that to be their best choice at the present time. (Either in terms of planning an escape; or in a slavery that is honor bound, like Tarl had when he first met the Red Savages.)


Precisely! Good illustration of a subtle difference. Their choices may be massively reduced, but there's usually one remaining -- obey or die. Tough as it is to accept, it IS still a choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
- Failing to achieve personal goals is measured by absolute opposites in a person living an agent-based morality (because their failing is defined by them accepting a rule being forced upon them) versus a person living a rule-based morality (because they fail if they rebel against accepting the rules which they are actively trying to adhere to.)


There are other ways to fail, as well: failing to uphold the values/virtues of one's morality (whichever sort of morality that might be) equates to a failure as well. But yes, you are correct here in how the two sorts of moralities 'mirror' each other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
Did that make any sense at all, or am I trying to dissect things too much?


It made sense to me, doll, & I don't give a fig about most anyone else so....keep dissecting! ;-P

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
So at which point does somebody know, either in a fictional character, or in ourselves or other people, if the goal is to live by an agent- or a rule-based morality?
Can there ever be a blur of both of them present in one person at the same time?


The goal may not have anything to do with a morality. The goal may be much less ethereal, much more specific/personal/tangible. An easy way to get a big 'hint' on the person's goal is to look at their choices & actions. In some cases, the goal may be something much more immediate -- gain financial security -- & the cost of the choices & actions the person took to achieve that goal is that they are the 'slave' of a job, an industry, a mate/spouse, or other 'authority'. The goal may be achieved, (making them 'successful' in their mind) but they have done so by living a rules-based morality.

Is the cost too great? Most never even learn enough to answer that. Most won't dig this deep. It reveals too much scary stuff! ;-/

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
Does a person have to live fully under a rule-based morality in order for mastery to be possible, or is it possible for a person with an agent-based morality to actively decide that slavery/mastery/complete deference to the will of another is the best possible choice at the time being? Would such a person truly be mastered or not?


Mastery demands obedience. That obedience is manifested in choices & actions. Those actions uphold the values of a morality where the values are defined by an external authority & imposed upon another. A person who either chooses to be OR discovers they are mastered is living a rules-based morality. At that point, they are not a person with an agent-focused morality. The degree of success the mastery may achieve is irrelevant to this, as well as personally defined by the master.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
At what level of deference can we speak of mastery, instead of speaking of self-mastery of a person living an agent-based morality making the choice to defer to another (kinda like a soldier would in some regards, I supposed.)


I choose to defer to Un quite often. He does NOT command it of me, nor has he elected to master me in order to elicit deference regardless of my will. Deference is not the turning point. Obedience is...& in particular, obedience to rules & standards imposed by an external authority, rather than one's own.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
Is it possible for a person who lived by an agent-based morality to accept a rule-based morality imposed by another in some cases, while all the while still remaining in a general not-mastered state?


While this seems to me to be a very precarious, self-denying, obfuscatory state to attempt to live in, I am a firm believer in "anything is possible". One need not be mastered & enslaved to live by a rules-based morality, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
Is it possible for people to change from one morality to the other?


Yes & I know some who have done it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
Has "slave" becoming a free woman because she decided she no longer wants to live under a rule-based morality always had an agent-based morality to begin with?


A slave who ceases to obey & begins to define her own values & standards by which she conducts herself, ceases to be a slave. To become a Gorean free woman, she then proceeds to select virtues & standards in alignment with the Gorean morality. She could select virtues & standards that do NOT align with Gorean morality &, no longer being a slave, conduct her life accordingly as a woman. But, imo, the term "free woman" is a Gorean term.

There are many moralities out there, & many more not yet defined. Which sort one chooses & manifests by one's actions, is not a "forever" thing. People grow, they evolve & they can alter their choices, their standards & their perspectives in small & L A R G E ways. There is no "law" or "rule" that says one's morality is carved in stone & thus unchangeable. It may require a lot of work....but nothing is impossible. ;-D


quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
And if she had, has she ever really been mastered?


For some, perhaps not. For others, certainly. Enslavement is a condition imposed by another, using the tool of mastery. If the mastery ceases, the enslavement will fade. That can occur for many reasons, in many fashions, with good, bad or ugly results. There is no set "rule" to which all must adhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
And if not, is it possible for a person truly living under an agent-based morality to be mastered and revert to an absolute rule-based morality?


While I'm not a big fan of an "absolute" anything, I do not pretend they don't exist. That said, the answer I gave above, about people growing & changing their moral code, applies here as well. It can go either way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
I guess all these questions fall back to two simple questions: how and where does one draw the line to distinguish between the both moralities?


An agent-focused morality is contingent upon the person themselves deciding what constitutes "right conduct". A rules-based morality is contingent upon an external authority deciding what consitutes "right conduct" & then imposing rules to guide the conduct of others to stay within that definition. To me, it's pretty clear what a stark demarcation there is. Dig deeper if you want to explore it further & I'll try to be more detailed. :-)

Well wishes!

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/16/2009 8:30:25 PM   
S2


Posts: 54
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline 		Greetings, Mistress Maahsatti,

To begin, thank you for your words, they did give me much to think about :) And considering the amount that you gave me to think about, please forgive me if this post shows a tendency to ramble...

I think the point that I would like to elaborate on is the idea that the Free do not care about what what a slave expects, thinks, and feels.

I think there are three points that I would like to mention which I believe is relevant:

1. Someone once mentioned to me a psychologist, whose name escaped me, and who supposedly said the following, "Most people are sleeping in metal boxes and do not know it. And I consider it my job to knock on those boxes to wake them up, so they will see the box."
I would consider that to be a reasonable metaphor for my intentions with this thread. I have seen quite a lot of disappointing behaviour in this forum, which I believe were not only unfit for those who would call themselves Goreans, but also anyone who would consider themselves a positive example of the human species, and anyone who would call themselves a responsible adult. To see such behaviour concentrated around and associated with Gor only pains me more.
With that said, yes, I am aware that how I feel don't matter to the Free. However, I have to also wonder, how many of the Free are aware of their own feelings on that issue. I know that it is not my place to correct the Free, but perhaps, with much hoping, some might take enough time, to take a closer look around themselves and at themselves, and decide whether or not they truly like what they see.
There is a chinese saying, "beat the grass alert the snake". Perhaps, by reminding the Free that such negativity still permeates Gor, they will notice how the air they breath might be polluted, and then choose to do something about it.
I know I have no right to tell the free what to do. But I do ask that the Free be aware of what they do. If they make a conscious choice to be hostile, and juvenile, then at least it is their choice. But if they are being hostile and juvenile simply because that is just how they have been, then I feel I should point it out, then hopefully they will make an informed decision.
I am reminded of a section from Captive of Gor, where Tarl (at that time Bosk) was about to drink unknowingly from a poisoned cup. A slave stopped him, and told him that it is poisoned. Even as a slave, I believe I should do at least that much. If Tarl chose to then drink poison, then it is his decision.
I do not presume to dictate the behaviour of the Free, but I also will not do nothing while I see them potentially doing themselves harm.

2. You mentioned keeping your mouth shut when you were a slave, and it made me wonder, perhaps, a distinction should be made between "Mastered" and "oppressed". Do all the slaves in this forum remain so quiet because they feel that since their words do not matter, then they should not speak at all? Do they really remain silent out of respect for the free, or do they remain silent because they felt terrorized? I know that often times I have feared to speak, for simple fear of being heard. But that, I have been told, is not healthy. Even if a slave's words don't matter, there really should be no reason for them not to speak up, unless they are ordered to silence by their owner or greater authority. After all, why silence a slave if her words do not matter, if they are supposely no more than noises in the wind? One reason I can think of, is perhaps some of the Free feel threatened by the words of a slave... I think I will let each Free decide whether or not to ask themselves that question, and each answer for themselves.

3. Last and shortest, I wonder, how many of the Free go out of their way to ignore the words of a slave. "It doesn't matter, a slave can't tell me what to do," they might say to themselves, and then plugged up their ears and covered their eyes. Who then, I wonder, is the mastered one, the dominated one...
Also, just because a slave's words doesn't matter, it does not mean the words are without merit.

Hmm... the following line apparantly escaped me in my first reading of your post, "but do understand there is the right way to go about things and a wrong way."
After significant thought, I realised that the way I conduct myself now, is the only way I know how, giving this specific situation. I could certainly imagine worse ways of handling it, but I don't think that is the point. As for how I could have done better... please give me suggestions.

< Message edited by S2 -- 12/16/2009 9:06:11 PM >

(in reply to Maahsatti)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/16/2009 9:03:38 PM   
Hiskajirah


Posts: 929
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		Evening S2

You wrote to Mistress Maahsatti but asked a few questions of slaves. I'd like to answer some thoughts on number 2 in your post. For a long time I felt that I needed to keep my mouth shut and yes some was from fear. Fear of what the free would think of me. Still to this day I don't take it upon myself to intervene in every thread posted. Some I do have something to add, but steer clear from it. Others I do offer a thought or feeling. Much is remaining silent is out of respect. Rarely will I ever put my two cents into a thread that is seemingly intended for the free. Sometimes a thread is intended for free, but slaves are given permission to offer thoughts. It would only those I might participate in. An example of a thread I have never posted in is the FW thread. No where in it does it say slaves are welcome and so it does not include me. I respect this.

A thread intended only for men. I do not reply on, ever.

Offline I don't jump into conversations, I listen. And I join in as able or allowed. If told to shush, I shush. Same thing really.

Some of my silence is due to respect. Some is that if it doesn't involve me or aspects of my life, my world, some how or other, I simply cease to add comment.

My Master does not prefer me silent. I'm allowed to express myself. I'm allowed to grow and learn. I'm required to be respectful, but I am also allowed to ask questions and add thought. Yet if told to shush (and I respect that person), I will defer.
And sometimes I will stop adding to a thread or post just because going round and round doesn't float my boat. I'm an advocate for 1000's of people and it isn't beyond me to stand up and not stand down. I believe everyone slave or free has the ability to open  eyes and provoke thought. It takes heart, passion and compassion. The ability to reason. You might cause an uproar or you might cause someone to think and realize...    

The latter we'll rarely know.

You also mentioned "I am reminded of a section from Captive of Gor, where Tarl (at that time Bosk) was about to drink unknowingly from a poisoned cup. A slave stopped him, and told him that it is poisoned. Even as a slave, I believe I should do at least that much. If Tarl chose to then drink poison, then it is his decision."

I agree.

Just remember one way or another we'll pay the consequences of our actions.

Wishing you well,
~twinkle



_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

(in reply to S2)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/16/2009 9:19:56 PM   
S2


Posts: 54
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline 		Hello twinkle :)

Thank you for contributing :) I am glad to have prove that slaves such as yourself do exist.

It is true that sometimes it is clear where slaves are unwelcome, or are expected to remain silent. I fully agree that such should be respected.

However, there are still a lot of areas which are ambiguous. In such cases, it is probably not a bad thing to err on the side of caution.

The concern, however, is when the expectations were not explicit, or when individual expectations/desires differ from what is publicly acknowledged or understood.
The Free often have the authority to command a slave to silence. However, it would seem that some of the Free would choose rather more insidious ways of silencing a slave...

< Message edited by S2 -- 12/16/2009 9:27:08 PM >

(in reply to Hiskajirah)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: of myself, Gor, and Goreans - 12/16/2009 9:30:57 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings Mistress,

I re-read my own post to you and almost wished I could go back and delete it and write it all over again, seeing that, now that I'm reading it the day after writing it, even I had a hard time keeping track of what it said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri
Mastery demands obedience. That obedience is manifested in choices & actions. Those actions uphold the values of a morality where the values are defined by an external authority & imposed upon another. A person who either chooses to be OR discovers they are mastered is living a rules-based morality. At that point, they are not a person with an agent-focused morality. The degree of success the mastery may achieve is irrelevant to this, as well as personally defined by the master.

An agent-focused morality is contingent upon the person themselves deciding what constitutes "right conduct". A rules-based morality is contingent upon an external authority deciding what constitutes "right conduct" & then imposing rules to guide the conduct of others to stay within that definition. To me, it's pretty clear what a stark demarcation there is. Dig deeper if you want to explore it further & I'll try to be more detailed. :-)




The definition for mastery I currently use is this: a state in which the subject is willing to compromise their own beliefs under pressure of the dominant AND the unwillingness of the dominant to allow the subject in their life on anything but the dominants own terms.

If the subject is willing to compromise, but the dominant is willing to compromise too, no mastery takes place.
If the subject is unwilling to compromise, no mastery takes place.

But I'm beginning to think that I should reevaluate my whole definition, because it just does not seem to fit in all cases.

For example, a person accepting the rules their boss imposes on them is by my definition being mastered by the boss, at least in that area of their life. This is the case even if the person has total control over all other aspects of their life. It would basically mean that nearly all people are slave to their jobs, or something else along those lines.

On the flip side, slaves that are considered to be slaves by mastery (like myself for instance) are not always perfectly obedient. While absolute obedient might be the goal, I don't belief that it is something that can ever really be achieved. Maybe I am wrong on that account, and maybe it can be, but in any event, I have never seen it before in anybody.
I know that I am not absolutely obedient in all cases, and when talking to other girls in similar situations to my own, I hear the same thing from them.

Now the thing is this: disobedience from a slave -at least active, willful, disobedience- implies agent-based thinking.
It shows that the slave made the active choice to disregard the rule-based morality she usually lives by. Even if that same slave still accepts the rule-based morality in all areas of her life, she decided that, in this instance, she gains more from doing what she wants then she gains from following the rules in place for her.

But if a slave is able to choose to disregard the rules in one instance, what is there for proof that she does not chooses to obey the rules in all other instances, because she personally decided that her gain is bigger if she follows the rules... In fact, the whole idea that she has the capability to disobey and chooses not to implies that your deference to Master Unbuilder and the obedience of a slave to her Master would be the same thing. Somehow that just doesn't seem to fit, or sound right...

Following that line of thinking though, mastery isn't really possible, because even if a dominant can impose their will on another, there is still not way of telling if the subject isn't just making the active choice to obey the whole time. Simply because they consider obeying to be the more justified or convenient personal choice to make.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri
Is the cost too great? Most never even learn enough to answer that. Most won't dig this deep. It reveals too much scary stuff! ;-/


It reveals mostly some very confusing stuff.
S2 was right in this instance, it falls back a lot on personal motivation.
The thing only is that it is seemingly so hard in some cases to truly find was drives me.
After a decade of introspection, and a year and a half in a collar, I find myself no closer than I was before in understanding my own motivation to obey or disobey in certain situations.

What do I want from life?
What am I willing to pay to get what I want?
Who am I?
WHY am I?
Is it even proper for a slave to be asking these questions or am I just setting myself up for a close encounter with Master's kurt?

I wish you well,

ishy

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 40
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