Are you a good citizen?

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AlwaysLisa -> Are you a good citizen? (12/14/2009 12:02:37 PM)
Greetings, Tal...Howdy :) As we come to the end of 2009, I start to ponder what 2010 has to offer and what all came to pass in the last year. The economy comes first to mind, that is what is hitting home for many Americans, if not you personally, then someone you know. I am bringing this here, for a gorean male thought or two...if worthy of the time. Are you agreeing with the current path this country is headed? Do you follow the Presidents ideals? Would you back them up if called to battle? If your answer is no, do you find your gorean ethos in turmoil? If you answered yes to a call to arms, regardless of your personal beliefs, do you feel less a gorean man and more like a "slave" to the government? While the men in my family have all passed on and my husband is beyond danger of being called to defend the country...these questions were part of a discussion with others. Some gorean, some not. I come from a long line of men who served, both land and air. There was never an issue, your country was your country, you answered the call. I don't remember any doubt in leadership, but today I find myself having LOTS of doubts. I don't remember being cynical or downright disagreeing and saying so, to much of what was told to us. Can you love your country and not agree with the leaders? Or is it a total package? And where do gorean values come into play for those embracing them? Do they clash at times with personal views or government opinions? I love my country and if war landed on our soil I would pick up the nearest gun. Here, that would be a shotgun. Yet, I have serious doubts and concerns about the leadership of this country and the direction we are headed. Im not saying this hasn't happened before, but for the first time in almost 50 years, I feel I am being blatantly lied to. My old boss used to say "Don't piss on my head and tell me it's rain". How appropriate. I hope to hear from men, since for now they are the most likely to find themself in this situation. Thanks, this is what happens when it's snowing and cold outside and I am given a moment to think. Lisa

AnimusRex -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/14/2009 1:03:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa I don't remember any doubt in leadership, but today I find myself having LOTS of doubts. I don't remember being cynical or downright disagreeing and saying so, to much of what was told to us. Can you love your country and not agree with the leaders? Or is it a total package? Lisa, come on now...Really? You are nearly 50 years old (my age) and this is the first time you feel you are being lied to? You have lived through Presidents Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and Obama. You have lived through Vietnam, Watergate, Iran/ Contra, the savings and loan implosion, the Lewinski affair, the vanishing Iraqi WMDs, and the 2008 banking collapse. You have seen our government overthrow legally elected governments and replace them with sociopathic dictators, support murderous rulers in half a dozen places around the globe, and take the side of the powerful and corrupt in nations too numerous to count. And only now, you feel you are being lied to? Only now, you have doubts about the leadership of the country? You are wondering if one can love their country and not agree with the leaders? That, Lisa, is the entire point of being in a democratic nation! When soldiers take their oath, thisis what they solemnly swear: "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; I don't see anywhere that they swear to defend the Constitution, and obey orders, as long as they happen to agree with the President. I despised the last President, and worked very hard to avoid a repeat of that smirking chimp and his cowardly sociopathic sidekick. And I still have disagreements with the current President, and will work again in the next election to make things better. And yet, no matter who wins in the next election, I and most other Americans will always support the Constitution. If I were to put a Gorean spin on it, I would say suck it up, stop complaining, and work towards what you believe is a solution.

AlwaysLisa -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/14/2009 1:33:51 PM)
Afternoon AnimusRex, Yep..see, in our household the government was always right. Dad was in the AirForce, Grandpa the Army. To badmouth the government was to paint a black mark on the country. It wasn't done. Not if you valued standing upright. I may have started to disbelieve over the past few years, but never has it been so "out there" in the open. Not for me. It took alot to bring down my fathers beliefs, the wall is crumbling faster. My post was asking how a gorean man would deal if he felt a duty to uphold, yet did not feel honor bound to do so by the actions of the leaders. Could be any leader, any one of the aforementioned, not only the current regime. So, you see no contradiction in your gorean beliefs and how you feel regarding the countries leadership and direction? I think that is what you are saying. Sorry you felt my post was whinning. I had hoped to get some responses to what started last week among friends. This board seemed a proper place to ask, what with all the goreans and such :) I have your reply, thank you. Have a great Monday. Lisa

breatheasone -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/14/2009 2:08:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa Afternoon AnimusRex, Yep..see, in our household the government was always right. Dad was in the AirForce, Grandpa the Army. To badmouth the government was to paint a black mark on the country. It wasn't done. Not if you valued standing upright. I may have started to disbelieve over the past few years, but never has it been so "out there" in the open. Not for me. It took alot to bring down my fathers beliefs, the wall is crumbling faster. My post was asking how a gorean man would deal if he felt a duty to uphold, yet did not feel honor bound to do so by the actions of the leaders. Could be any leader, any one of the aforementioned, not only the current regime. So, you see no contradiction in your gorean beliefs and how you feel regarding the countries leadership and direction? I think that is what you are saying. Sorry you felt my post was whinning. I had hoped to get some responses to what started last week among friends. This board seemed a proper place to ask, what with all the goreans and such :) I have your reply, thank you. Have a great Monday. Lisa This was a very classy reply [sm=2cents.gif]

Trevelyan -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/14/2009 2:09:34 PM)
Yes, I am a good citizen. I obey the laws of my community. I pay my taxes honestly and on time. I have served in the military and on juries, and would serve again in whatever capacity was called. I have thought long and hard about my political principles. I try to be well informed about the issues. I let my representatives know my opinions on various issues. I try to be well informed about the candidates, and vote in every election. I am very concerned about the direction our country is currently headed. I think that our leaders, of both parties, are well on the way to creating a weak, needy, indebted, and hated America. I absolutely do not feel that the current administration and congress is the first that has lied to us or made poor decisions. I think that if you looked at any of the administrations listed by AnimusRex you would find instances: the Bay of Pigs, the Gulf of Tonkin, Watergate, the Iran Hostage crisis, Iran/Contra.... I think you would also see good things accomplished by each administration and congress. As far as Gorean political principles, here is my take on some of them: Goreans see themselves as sovereign in their territory, and pride themselves on their self-reliance. Life, freedom and property are protected only by the person's ability to defend them against agression. Goreans form communities, and require allegiance from the citizens of their communities. Gorean's deal harshly with those who do not practice their livelihood or are criminals or traitors. Goreans are suspicious of strangers. Goreans disapprove of pity, begging or improvidence. Goreans feel that the welfare of a larger number of individuals is more important than the welfare of a smaller number of individuals. Goreans focus on the center (their home and city) rather than the periphery. Goreans do not believe in equality. Goreans of lower caste have civil rights, but only the upper castes have political rights.

Musicmystery -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/14/2009 3:13:43 PM)
quote: Afternoon AnimusRex, Yep..see, in our household the government was always right. Dad was in the AirForce, Grandpa the Army. To badmouth the government was to paint a black mark on the country. It wasn't done. Not if you valued standing upright. Well then, your household missed the point of this country, and spent a lot of time with your heads in the sand. Our very system is built on disagreement and what to do about it, down to protecting people's right to disagree. As for the rest of your rant, Animus has already addressed that well. I'll leave it there.

AlwaysLisa -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/15/2009 4:50:02 AM)
quote: Well then, your household missed the point of this country, and spent a lot of time with your heads in the sand Thanks for your opinion, though I think if you look back at folks raised in the 30's, 40's and even some in the 50's and 60's....you will see alot of folks with their heads buried. It was a common occurance. Our government is not perfect, I suppose it never has been, but it's ours. Thank you for the objective replies. Have a great Tuesday!

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/15/2009 5:35:06 AM)
Greetings Lisa, quote: ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa Greetings, Tal...Howdy :) As we come to the end of 2009, I start to ponder what 2010 has to offer and what all came to pass in the last year. The economy comes first to mind, that is what is hitting home for many Americans, if not you personally, then someone you know. I am bringing this here, for a gorean male thought or two...if worthy of the time. Are you agreeing with the current path this country is headed? Do you follow the Presidents ideals? Would you back them up if called to battle? I do not believe I have ever agreed 100% with the path this country has taken. No more now, than in years past, but just a different head on the same dragon. Would I back them? They are our elected officials, and I believe in and follow the Constitution, so I would likely follow along. If I disagreed, I would protest, write to my elected officials, and maybe even refuse and be jailed. It would have to be an extreme case though, because I would go to be along side my fellow citizens, not for the politicians. quote: If your answer is no, do you find your gorean ethos in turmoil? If you answered yes to a call to arms, regardless of your personal beliefs, do you feel less a gorean man and more like a "slave" to the government? Feel like a slave? No. I willingly accept the laws of this country, if I did not then I would choose to leave or become an outlaw. A slave has no choice, but I do. I accept the consequences of those actions as well. quote: While the men in my family have all passed on and my husband is beyond danger of being called to defend the country...these questions were part of a discussion with others. Some gorean, some not. I come from a long line of men who served, both land and air. There was never an issue, your country was your country, you answered the call. I don't remember any doubt in leadership, but today I find myself having LOTS of doubts. I don't remember being cynical or downright disagreeing and saying so, to much of what was told to us. Can you love your country and not agree with the leaders? Or is it a total package? Of course you can love your country and disagree with your leaders. If you look at the Constitution and the foundation of the principles this country is founded on, it preserves and encourages disagreement. quote: And where do gorean values come into play for those embracing them? Do they clash at times with personal views or government opinions? Of course things will clash on occasion, and we are presented with moral dilemmas every day. Having a well defined code, and ethics assists in navigation though. quote: I love my country and if war landed on our soil I would pick up the nearest gun. Here, that would be a shotgun. Yet, I have serious doubts and concerns about the leadership of this country and the direction we are headed. Im not saying this hasn't happened before, but for the first time in almost 50 years, I feel I am being blatantly lied to. My old boss used to say "Don't piss on my head and tell me it's rain". How appropriate. I hope to hear from men, since for now they are the most likely to find themself in this situation. Thanks, this is what happens when it's snowing and cold outside and I am given a moment to think. Lisa We are always lied to, even on Gor they have different levels of knowledge, keeping the peasants more ignorant of higher caste. I do not like or encourage it, but we the people have created what we have, and only we the people can change it. The first thing to do, is to stop creating divisions for the sake of being a winner or loser. Live well, Orion

Mastermunch -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/15/2009 7:43:57 AM)
Hello all. I'm way up here in snow country. My neighbours to the south are what this thread seems to be about. I am also patriotic. I would rise and fight for my country. I would also need to know that the cause is true and worthy. It seems far to easy to shed blood over the ideals of leaders. I do believe that there is a time coming when our great continent will have to band together. To defend our land from the despots who await. It is too bad that the leaders do not take the time to go directly after the hydra's head. Once the head is cut off, then the body will wither and die out. Yet we do not seem to be interested in this approach. Out fighting is done on the nightly news, where the weak-knees get to poo-poo and act aghast at the deeds of our chosen warriors. Even a forest fire warrior knows that you have to fight fire with fire. Our leaders, no matter where, are far too concerned with the public opinion than with getting the job done. I am probably off topic here, but this Canuck desired an opportunity to rant. Thank-you.

Lizbetbathory -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/15/2009 8:17:37 AM)
I disagree with most aspect of our government.... but i respect the soldiers and those fighting to keep our freedom...our country was started because we didnt want to be repressed.....but lately it seems those freedoms are disappearing

Mastermunch -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/16/2009 7:56:00 AM)
What is freedom? I used to believe that this was the best continent anywhere. I just keep reflecting on Orwell's 1984. No matter where one goes, Big Brother is watching. Restricting. Ordering. Can't sit on your own back deck, after work, with a cold beer and a joint. Some nosey neighbour will call the DEA and we all know how close they seem to be.

Elisabella -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/16/2009 9:18:26 AM)
-FR- Lisa, I hope you don't mind me changing the direction of this thread slightly...I noticed that your question was asked to the Gorean men on this board, and I have a similar question to both the men and women. In a few countries (Israel is the one that comes to mind) military service is obligatory for both men and women. Presuming a woman wasn't able to get an assignment that kept her away from hand to hand combat, what is the Gorean view when it comes to women on the front lines? And a question more directed toward the Free Women: How would you feel if part of being a good citizen was serving an obligatory term in the military (and being given the same types of assignments as men)? Personally while I feel that women should be allowed into the military if they want to be, I think that obligatory military service for women is a disgrace, and I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for this but I think that if an army needs to draft women, the men aren't doing their job well enough.

ElizabethAnne -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/16/2009 11:16:12 AM)
Hello Elisabella, I do not believe in the draft for women or men. I want our military with people that WANT to be there to serve our country, as a choice - by their own free will. Not because they HAVE to be. Brule's son was sworn in yesterday into the Air Force, delayed enlistment, he will leave for basic in August after he graduates. To say we are proud is putting it mildly. Take care, Elizabeth

AlwaysLisa -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/16/2009 11:51:36 AM)
Hi Elisabella, Take this thread any direction you wish, :) In response to your statement: quote: Personally while I feel that women should be allowed into the military if they want to be, I think that obligatory military service for women is a disgrace, and I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for this but I think that if an army needs to draft women, the men aren't doing their job well enough. Some countries have been at war so long, they have a short supply of men, so require women into service. I have no bias, man or woman, as long as they are physically and emotionally fit for the job. I would hate to be forced into combat with anyone I couldn't depend on if things got dicey. I've never been, but have heard stories of men who had no business being in the military, couldn't pull their weight and were more of a handicap to the unit then a benefit. Manditory service shouldn't be based on gender, but capabilities. JMHO. Lisa

serisa -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/16/2009 4:38:24 PM)
quote: o say we are proud is putting it mildly. quote: ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne Going off the topic slightly i know (sorry for that) but reading about the pride of US citizens makes me wish to share if i may a few thoughts from an English person who years ago during my teenage years spent several holidays in the US with my parents. I was lucky enough to be on holiday just as the troops were being sent home gradually from Operation Desert Storm, this as it happened co incided with the July 4th celebrations. Therefore little old me from England got to see my first ever July 4th parade. If my memory serves me well it had literally been days since the first of the troops had started coming home. It seemed to be to everyones surprise and delight that a number took part in the parade... the men sat on top of their trucks/tanks with a banner behind 'operation desert storm'. I can honestly say that i have never heard a crowd more proud or cheer with such passion that i heard that day... and i will not forget what a honour it was to take part in this celebration, It is truly a time in my life i shall never forget

Elisabella -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/16/2009 5:18:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne Hello Elisabella, I do not believe in the draft for women or men. I want our military with people that WANT to be there to serve our country, as a choice - by their own free will. Not because they HAVE to be. Brule's son was sworn in yesterday into the Air Force, delayed enlistment, he will leave for basic in August after he graduates. To say we are proud is putting it mildly. Take care, Elizabeth Hi Elizabeth, While I generally believe the same in times of peace or even relative peace (ie foreign wars that don't directly threaten the safety of the nation) I can see a reason for a draft - WWII was probably the best example of this, with the Civil War being a close second. Generally in extreme cases of "If we don't send our men to defend our country, we won't have a country left to defend" I can understand the reasoning behind a draft. That being said, in both of those situations the women were able to do things absolutely vital to the war effort without being on the front lines. And I think it actually might help the morale of the soldiers to know that they're protecting their women at home, they're risking their lives to make it safe for the women they love - their wives, mothers, sisters, daughters. And doing that makes them feel like men, whereas doing a 'manly' job next to women doing the same thing kinda changes the perception of it. I have a total soft spot for Disney movies - this kinda gets it across http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm3ijOVsraA In any regard I think it's amazing your son joined the Air Force and I wish you and your family the best. I wish you well, Bella

LordShadow -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/17/2009 11:09:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa Greetings, Tal...Howdy :) quote: As we come to the end of 2009, I start to ponder what 2010 has to offer and what all came to pass in the last year. The economy comes first to mind, that is what is hitting home for many Americans, if not you personally, then someone you know. I am bringing this here, for a gorean male thought or two...if worthy of the time. Are you agreeing with the current path this country is headed? Do you follow the Presidents ideals? Would you back them up if called to battle? No, No, and No... quote: If your answer is no, do you find your gorean ethos in turmoil? If you answered yes to a call to arms, regardless of your personal beliefs, do you feel less a gorean man and more like a "slave" to the government? No, I would not answer a call to arms to defend his ideals...to defend his right to live and express his ideals? yes, that call I would answer...but, it would also mean that mine were threatened as well. While the men in my family have all passed on and my husband is beyond danger of being called to defend the country...these questions were part of a discussion with others. Some gorean, some not. quote: I come from a long line of men who served, both land and air. There was never an issue, your country was your country, you answered the call. I don't remember any doubt in leadership, but today I find myself having LOTS of doubts. I don't remember being cynical or downright disagreeing and saying so, to much of what was told to us. Can you love your country and not agree with the leaders? Or is it a total package? To me, our country was based upon the premise of freedom of choice...I see much of this disappearing "for the greater good" coughs would not the greater good be better served by maintaining freedom of choice by holding people responsible for their actions rather than restricting freedom of everyone? My answer to this is yes, I love my country and what it stands for...but I believe our leadership leaves a lot to be desired. quote: And where do gorean values come into play for those embracing them? Do they clash at times with personal views or government opinions? Happens all the time, just go with what you feel to be righteous...you will never go wrong quote: I love my country and if war landed on our soil I would pick up the nearest gun. Here, that would be a shotgun. Yet, I have serious doubts and concerns about the leadership of this country and the direction we are headed. Im not saying this hasn't happened before, but for the first time in almost 50 years, I feel I am being blatantly lied to. I have to agree with many of the others...you are just now feeling lied to or misled by the Government? quote: My old boss used to say "Don't piss on my head and tell me it's rain". How appropriate. lol...I like that analogy I hope to hear from men, since for now they are the most likely to find themself in this situation. Thanks, this is what happens when it's snowing and cold outside and I am given a moment to think. Lisa

Qorvas -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/18/2009 12:43:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mastermunch Hello all. I'm way up here in snow country. My neighbours to the south are what this thread seems to be about. I am also patriotic. I would rise and fight for my country. I would also need to know that the cause is true and worthy. It seems far to easy to shed blood over the ideals of leaders. I do believe that there is a time coming when our great continent will have to band together. To defend our land from the despots who await. It is too bad that the leaders do not take the time to go directly after the hydra's head. Once the head is cut off, then the body will wither and die out. Yet we do not seem to be interested in this approach. Out fighting is done on the nightly news, where the weak-knees get to poo-poo and act aghast at the deeds of our chosen warriors. Even a forest fire warrior knows that you have to fight fire with fire. Our leaders, no matter where, are far too concerned with the public opinion than with getting the job done. I am probably off topic here, but this Canuck desired an opportunity to rant. Thank-you. Mastermunch, I like your style. I too am a citizen of the Great White North and I hear what you are saying. let me add to that the Gorean saying: "Gold has no caste", and comment sadly, that here on Earth; here in North America especially it seems, there are many who worship gold over anything else. I wish you well Qorvas

Mastermunch -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/21/2009 7:42:45 AM)
I have no problem with women joining up. Going into combat and fighting for what is right. The only problem I have is if subbies join. A Domme wouldn't lay down her weapon and spread em for the first Dom male that says to. Thinking about that, maybe a Domme battalion. They'd have the enemy conquered and enslaved by 9pm. Just in time for PARTY. hehhehheh.

Kimveri -> RE: Are you a good citizen? (12/21/2009 8:52:21 AM)
"Domme's"? "Subbies"?? You are aware that this is the Gorean Lifestyles forum, right? Surely you are also aware that being submissive with a man, or even most men, need not mean a woman is 'unable' to keep her legs closed, right?? I'm just astounded... ~Kimveri

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