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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/21/2009 5:41:28 PM

Dinnardin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

quote:

It really doesn't happen like that, it's the anaology of a frog in a kettle. Put a frog in boiling hot water, the frog jumps out, put a frog in nice tepid water, and slowly ever so slowly turn up the heat. The frog will boil to death.

Vivid picture, eww.

Nice analogy, but it will be some time before I can boil anything.

Back to the discussion...

Lisa

add some noodles......SOUP!!!

John, AKA Dinnardin

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/21/2009 5:58:44 PM

alittleevil

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

... but if you had two men interested in you and one of them loved you but had no desire to master you, and the other wanted to master you and was able to do so, and he'd be affectionate but he'd never feel actual love for you, you'd be more interested in pursuing something with the second man. Yes?

Greetings Elisabella,

That is exactly it.

Best to you,
aj

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/21/2009 6:51:28 PM

alittleevil

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Part deux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

-FR-

...But I'm guessing from your posts that the way I view love is the way you view mastery, that you can't imagine *yourself* loving a man who wasn't able to master you...

Hi again Elisabella,

Sorry i missed this the first time thru. I can love a man who is not able to master me. What i can't do, sadly, is be a good, strong partner to a man who is not able to master me, so (historically) we end up in rather miserable situations. I don't so much "run amok" (though i do LOVE that word. hee!) as disappear.

Again, my best to you,
aj

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/21/2009 7:00:08 PM

alittleevil

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
I think the reason a love slave is held in a deeper, more startling slavery than most girls would be held in is because she is indeed loved. And because she is loved, her Master may not want to deny her wants and wishes because he loves her. If that would be the case, and he did cave in to her wants and whims, then indeed the mastery would weaken because (ta-daa) he now gives into her. We all know how easy it is to give into a loved one....to do something because you love someone. It goes especially to women who feel a depth...a depth of servitude if you will...of gratefulness to their man or their master because he does give in to them. But...what if there is something she really, really, really wants and her master doesn't want to give into that particular wish, then what? Goreans do not compromise with their slaves. Its hard to back-pedal, by that point. So, if he gives in to her, not really wanting to, I would imagine he would (in a sense) feel weakened and not in total control of the relationship. I would also imagine, over time, both master and slave would feel that power shift and as a result, neither would be happy, and both may actually despise what they've become and each other, for it.

So, in reading the books of Gor, I walked away with the feeling that a man who loved his slave had to keep himself stronger than strong...to almost defend himself from his love of his slave, from giving into her wants....so as not to inadvertantly tip those scales in favor of the slave. I would imagine it would be very hard indeed to stay strong and firm and unveering...and the girls slavery had to be deep and unrelentless to ensure she was in fact being kept in her place.

Greetings Louve,

In addition to the above, could it also be that strong, uncompromising men love in strong, uncompromising ways? If a man loves a girl, his expectations of her become even more stringent and relentless because *he* loves her. Anything he values must, therefore, be held to extremely high standards.

Well wishes to you ,
aj

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/23/2009 5:38:58 AM

starshineowned

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Greetings..

Terms are so difficult sometimes to go upon because everyone has their own interpretations and reasons that have formed them when used. Love is just one word ..yet what constitutes love for one does not for another even though some overlapping other terms might appear in attempt to describe.

I know I did not love Master when I first started speaking with him. He was just words on a screen for quite some time before it moved to phone and webcam. I am not even truly sure what drew me to him and kept me there since anyone can say things that another wishes to hear in order to achieve what they want.

The only logical conclusion I am left with on that is that Master did not waiver nor spice up what he was about, what he wanted, his views, plans, goals, ideals etc. nor did he ever change what another girls placement in his life to him would be Even when some of those things differed from my preferences or thoughts. He made zero compromises, and offered me a take it or leave it, and no man before him had ever done that. I've said quite a few times in posts over the years that I was done. I was done playing. I was done hiding. I was done pretending, and I leaped. Why? I do not know but something about Master made me abandon all the securities that I had in a bid for freedom. Oddly to most or society in general not a very freeing move I suppose.

It couldn't qualify as love nor mastery at that point. I think honesty and lack of compromising for the almighty pussy did it.

I know now that Master does love me, and I him..but to more clarify it as to what that means to us is that he loves me as a slave, and I him as Master. There is that dividing line between us. Mastery comes I think from him having me at his feet and constantly watching his slave ( or as the books elude to knowing the slave completely) to maintain that which keeps that dividing line present at all times.

I do not mindfully try to manipulate Master or test him to see if his dominance is still there. He gives me no cause or even opportunity to do such, and I can not for the life of me thinking back to life prior to him see a reason that I would wish to. I am however, myself..and if that comes off as manipulative by way of emotions or female tendencies to react a certain way..he's doesn't buy it, and it is squelched before I myself recognize what is going on. Those sort of moments leave me scratching my head and having to fall back on: He may be wrong but he is always right.

starshine

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/23/2009 8:35:58 AM

Arturas

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Greetings;

1) If a man's mastery over his slave is strong, why would adding love to the mix weaken that mastery?
To Master and i it completely strengthened it. Before, i never knew when or if i was to be cast aside. Knowing His love for me, i realized that W/we will be U/us for along time. And that gave me the strength and courage to open my heart to Him and give Him all that i am. It gave me the freedom to allow Him to mold me into who he wants me to be. It simply opened up SO much more. So it totally strengthened O/our bond.

2) It is said that if a Gorean man loves his slave, he must be harsher with her than with his other slaves , lest his hold on her as his slave weaken. Why? Surely if he feels his mastery of her weakening because he loves her, it is himself he needs to strengthen not the slave.
i think by being harsher with her that by doing so does strengthen Him. As Master does not like to see me cry in pain, it is precisely that pain He may inflict and watch as He may not want to that makes Him stronger. If left for along time without His whip, i can grow more bratty, and i guess in some ways without realizing it "test" the boundaries, so by being harsher with me at those times, reminds me of my place, and keeps me from making Him grow irritated with me and the brattiness that can happen. im back to being my humble service orientated self.

im not sure any of my answers made sense, but maybe ishy can come in and straighten that out, she has a great way of being able to convey my thoughts.

Merry Christmas may all be safe and loved.

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/23/2009 10:42:35 AM

Louve00

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alittleevil

Greetings Louve,

In addition to the above, could it also be that strong, uncompromising men love in strong, uncompromising ways? If a man loves a girl, his expectations of her become even more stringent and relentless because *he* loves her. Anything he values must, therefore, be held to extremely high standards.

Well wishes to you ,
aj

It most certainly could mean that, aj. I would think it would definitely be up to the type of man he is as to whether his favor for her could lead to him making allowances for her 'slips', or whether his pride in what is his would take precedence. He could be exercising strength over himself not to give into any weakness he may have because of his love for her, or exercising the strength of his will over hers without relent. The end result would be the same. The exact reasons would vary. I think only the man would know. *If* she were indeed being held in a deeper slavery because of his love for her.

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 12/23/2009 10:45:30 AM >

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/23/2009 10:27:27 PM

Hiskajirah

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Greetings Aynne

You did express your thoughts quite well. Understood it all. Made much sense to me. Couldn't even find anything to disagree with. ~smiles

Very much enjoyed reading.

Merry Christmas,
~twinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hiskajirah

Greetings zeph

This is why even though I'm fairly well versed in the books and understand the meaning behind them, we live by what is realistic. The institution of marriage didn't exist in the books. A man doesn't marry his slave. They can be free companions. We're certainly not going to get divorced to fit this. He is my Master and I am his slave. I cannot say I've always been mastered, but I can say I've always been property. Back in the day it was by marriage that a woman became the property of man.

Master AnimusRex said "I can only speak from my own life experience- but I believe that love can be the engine that drives a level of servitude that goes deeper, further, to more extremes than any kink"

And I couldn't agree more. I have a hard time believing those that say... I don't want love, I don't need love, I rather have his mastery...

Everyone yearns to feel love.

It takes finding the right master and the man finding the right slave. All females manipulate to a point. We got Adam to bite that apple didn't we? Come're baby, look at this.. ? Doesn't it look yummy..? She probably enticed him, teased his lips with it's juices..even thought he already said NO.. he submitted and ate.

And men, sometimes they do things similar even still.. it doesn't always mean their union is headed for doom.. but it does mean he can't keep allowing it or it will become doomed.

I mean.. I've gotten something a time or two after sucking his yum yum like a golf ball out of a garden hose...

Does that mean I manipulated him? ~laughs

Warm wishes,
~twinkle

Greetings beautiful twinkle ;)

I know as a non-Gorean I always risk criticism by posting here but hopefully I can convey this correctly. I admit when I first came here I didn't always express myself with respect or understanding to the Gorean ethos and for that I apologize, but isn't it said that when you know better you do better? of course I paraphrase..

I think Zeph's question and her thoughts on it are quite correct and I also love what you and AnimusRex have said. I couldn't be mastered and obedient and especially compelled to please him as I do if I were not so loved and in love. It is his love that is the catalyst to drive me to want to please him in every way possible, sexually, of course, but I am much more than a "pleasure" slave. I work in his business, and I work very hard for him in that capacity. I cater to his every need and desire, and his love for me is in no way something that I use to maniplate him. Of course he loves having a beautiful girl at his feet in the evening, or bringing him coffee in the morning, or cleaning his home or whatever else I anticipate he may desire, but I don't understand the idea that his love for me weakens his Mastery of me.

I am sure for some men that can't be as strict and punitive as needed if they are blinded by love for their slaves, but that is not my experience. I believe it is quite possible to love your possession and still wield the whip and hold the reigns firmly, if the man himself is in control of his dominance and position. When I dissapoint him I am quickly and firmly corrected, and it isn't pleasant. I don't beleive in the whole "funishment" thing, if he wants to beat me he just does so, and if I err, he quickly reminds me of my place, and my tears mean nothing at that time. He also holds me close, loves me, and treats me like a treasured possession. He doesn't however ever let me forget my place, nor do I want to. Do I manipulate him? I don't know, I mean I know that if he had a bad day or if he is stressed out I love to put on a super sexy lingerie outfit and prepare a wonderful meal in the nude with heels on and cajole him out of it, if that is maipulation, he seems to not mind it..

Love and mastery can indeed go hand in hand and enhance a relationship for this couple anyway.

Thanks Zeph for a great discussion and I hope that I expressed my thoughts concisely here. I wish you all well~

Aynne

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/24/2009 4:44:38 AM

Saffleur

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Tal Zephyr,

quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

My view is that good, healthy love strengthens a bond rather than weakening it. Thinking about that, and since this is off subject of the "Choosing" thread, I decided to create a thread on it and ask my questions here.

1) If a man's mastery over his slave is strong, why would adding love to the mix weaken that mastery?

In short, if he is what he is. It won't.

To elaborate on that however, love is something we are raised to understand. It's not something we are genetically predisposed to. It's an emotion that surrounds us as we grow from infant to adult. We can go back in time and see how more emphasis has been placed on love. Society raises men to believe in love in such a way that to a man who is not a Master, he becomes the slave of love.

The man who is a Master, one who owns a woman, when he comes to love her, that relationship becomes deeper, more profound. The idea that it weakens a mans mastery over a woman is because he is open to her emotionally in a way never before. Some see this as making himself vulnerable and a weakness. I am of the belief that I do not need to love the property that which I own. If I do, then swell. It's not however my main goal in being Gorean. Owning a slave isn't my goal either.

Let a man love his slave, let him do so fiercely. Let her in that torrent of emotion become all the more helplessly his.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth
2) It is said that if a Gorean man loves his slave, he must be harsher with her than with his other slaves , lest his hold on her as his slave weaken. Why? Surely if he feels his mastery of her weakening because he loves her, it is himself he needs to strengthen not the slave.

It is a case of both really. The man should not give in to the wheedlings of a slave. The slave however is a petty animal who will strive to get whatever trinkets and tokens of affection they can get. This relationship can be used to make the slave incontrovertibly more enslaved. His denial of her pleadings will anger her but she will also be grateful for his strength. It will remind her of her place and she will in turn love him for that.

I enjoy the boldness by which a slave may try and get her way, including that whole golf ball through a garden hose analogy. In the end if the man is wise, he will have a grateful beast at his feet willing to kiss and lick them at a moment's notice of displeasure.

Giving a slave something she begs for occasionally is not a bad thing. It in many ways justifies in their mind that they have been excellently pleasing and makes them more devoted. A man who gives the slave everything they want is not mastering her. They may as well be you're average couple with some bedroom kinks tossed in.

A man who owns a female should in ways be a cerebral assassins of them. Able to plant things that bloom in their mind swiftly and suddenly, giving the slave epiphanies of their plight and pleasure. In the end if he stays strong, she will be helpless in his bonds. Love has no bearing on it.

I wish you well,
Scott

< Message edited by Saffleur -- 12/24/2009 4:46:09 AM >

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/24/2009 5:25:58 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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Greetings to the Free,
Greetings girlies and all lurkers,

Thank you all for responding to this thread. You have all given me much to think about, as both the "yay" and "nay' sides have valid points. So it is perhaps a bit of both, love both softens and strengthens the bond between a man and his slave.

Master Scott you said " Let a man love his slave, let him do so fiercely. Let her in that torrent of emotion become all the more helplessly his." I love that, may I add it to my sig...with proper credit of course?

I wish you all well,

zeph

< Message edited by zephyroftheNorth -- 12/24/2009 5:26:34 AM >

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/24/2009 6:52:31 AM

Saffleur

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Tal Zephyr,

If you'd like go ahead.

I wish you well,
Scott

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/24/2009 6:54:36 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Saffleur

Tal Zephyr,

If you'd like go ahead.

I wish you well,
Scott

Greetings Master Scott,

Thank you!

Iwyw,

zeph

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/25/2009 11:57:28 AM

AnimusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne
CAN it be done - a man loving, being in love, etc, with his slave? Yes of course. But it takes due diligence on the part of the man to keep an even keel with his mastery of his slave. NOT the woman - the MAN determines the slavery not the woman. And as long as he KEEPS her in 'excellent mastery", ie, holding her accountable and responsible for her actions, making sure she is NOT self determining for herself AND for him. It CAN work. Difficult, but it can be done. All too often "I" have seen the opposite happen. The man "falls in love' with his slave, the slave then has the ablibity to lead him around....and eventually she does. I think we have seen it happen here as well.

Wow.
Sounds like a lot of work, keeping a girl in "excellent mastery". A man's work is never done, I suppose. Constantly checking on that sneaky little she-devil, inventing new assignments, following up, devising appropriate punishments, making sure the lesson was learned, then studying each task to make sure it was done correctly.

And of course, keeping one's guard up, making sure the little bitch doesn't try to sap his Manly Mojo, sleeping with one eye open, ever at the ready to overpower her and force her into line.

Whew!
Exhausting work, that!

Or a man can simply find a girl who really, sincerely enjoys serving him.

Yes, I know this sounds snarky- but why turn what should be a partnership of man and his helpmate into a lifetime grudge match, a neverending power struggle?

I have seen many men led around by their women- but love has nothing to do with it. The men I have seen who become weak are that way because of things internal to themselves, and the woman simply fills the vacuum of authority. Someone has to run the household, and he won't, she will.

I enjoy Gor precisely because of the primal simplicity of it all. Be true to your own nature, shoulder your responsibility as head of household, and your woman will be drawn to that. Most women have a natural desire to follow a man, and don't need to be forced into it.

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/25/2009 12:09:15 PM

ishyB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Wow.
Sounds like a lot of work, keeping a girl in "excellent mastery". A man's work is never done, I suppose. Constantly checking on that sneaky little she-devil, inventing new assignments, following up, devising appropriate punishments, making sure the lesson was learned, then studying each task to make sure it was done correctly.

And of course, keeping one's guard up, making sure the little bitch doesn't try to sap his Manly Mojo, sleeping with one eye open, ever at the ready to overpower her and force her into line.

Whew!
Exhausting work, that!

Or a man can simply find a girl who really, sincerely enjoys serving him.

Yes, I know this sounds snarky- but why turn what should be a partnership of man and his helpmate into a lifetime grudge match, a neverending power struggle?
I have seen many men led around by their women- but love has nothing to do with it. The men I have seen who become weak are that way because of things internal to themselves, and the woman simply fills the vacuum of authority. Someone has to run the household, and he won't, she will.

I enjoy Gor precisely because of the primal simplicity of it all. Be true to your own nature, shoulder your responsibility as head of household, and your woman will be drawn to that. Most women have a natural desire to follow a man, and don't need to be forced into it.

Greetings Master,

I think what you have brought up here is the perfect illustration of why most men do NOT want a slave...
They want a self-determining woman, happy in her place with a man leading her, but still able to control herself, be a partner, be accountable. Preferable a woman who LIKES to be "take care of her man" who LIKES to serve him, if you will.

In short, they want a FW with a lot of submissive/subservient tendencies.

Nothing wrong with that.

Keeping slaves, as you noted, IS hard work for most men.

It is just that, for some men, the "work" involved in keeping a slave in her place is not work at all. It is what they enjoy doing the most, even if it might be exhausting to a different breed of man.

I always look at the difference between FW and kajirae, and the men who like them as the difference between a man who likes a riding horse and a man who likes a wild mustang.

Most men, who like horses, just want a horse to go ride on every now and then. They enjoy the partnership they have with the horse. While they lead, and the horse follows, they don't need to "master" the horse to get that relationship with it, the horse's nature will take care of that.

Some men, like taming wild mustangs however. They like taming a horse, they like the unpredictability, the spirit. They like breaking in a horse to the bit and saddle, winning its trust. They like the fact that they will ALWAYS need to be on their toes in the saddle, because the wild horse will throw them off at the first sign of "weakness". They like the challenge.

Some men will like their horses somewhere in between.

In the end, almost all men like being in charge of their horse and enjoy the mutually beneficial relationship that stems from them being in charge, but not all men enjoy having to fight a horse to get there.

Nothing wrong with liking either kind of horse, just like there is nothing wrong with BEING either kind of horse...

Different breeds of women... euhm horses... for different breed of men.

I wish you well,

ishy

< Message edited by ishyB -- 12/25/2009 12:34:10 PM >

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/25/2009 3:00:17 PM

AnimusRex

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ishy-
I am guessing by your metaphor that a submissive is like a horse, and a slave is like a wild mustang.

A wild mustang that is constantly turning to bite at a man's ankle, or bucking him repeatedly. One who is just barely under control, who can never be counted on or trusted, who is always at risk of throwing him.

Women who behave like this may or may not be slave, but I believe the technical term for this is "PITA" or Pain In The Ass, the type of woman who should be kicked to the curb at the first opportunity.

What possible benefit does a girl like this bring a man? What good is she? If he has to fight with her just to get a cup of coffee, or has to punish her just to get her to fold his shirts or part her legs, why tolerate her?

I would prefer to have a woman who does what I want, how I want, when I want, without making it into a battle. Someone who serves me, who tends to my needs faithfully and devotedly without backtalk or argument. Give her any title you wish, but I just call her my woman.

This analogy of wild horses and women is in error in my view. A horse bucks, because having someone ride on its back is fundamentally unnatural, something strange that it was never designed for.

But most women by their very nature enjoy serving men. Most take to it readily, eagerly, without coercion or force.
They just find very few willing to lead and be unapologetically Patriarchal.

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/25/2009 3:34:22 PM

ishyB

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Greetings Master,

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
I am guessing by your metaphor that a submissive is like a horse, and a slave is like a wild mustang.

A Free Woman I would consider to be a riding horse, a slave a wild mustang.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

A wild mustang that is constantly turning to bite at a man's ankle, or bucking him repeatedly. One who is just barely under control, who can never be counted on or trusted, who is always at risk of throwing him.

In the beginning, yes, that's exactly what a wild horse would do.
Under the will of a strong trainer they can become excellent mounts though -mounts that still will always require very strict control.
The tarn in Master Norman's books was highly valued precisely because it could never be truly trusted. Because, no matter how well trained, no matter how obedient, it always remained a "wild" animal. The only way a tarnsman could fly a tarn is by keeping it under strict discipline. Should the tarn ever see weakness in him, it would eat him alive; just like the mustang would throw him out of the saddle, and the slave would steal his balls from under his nose.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
What possible benefit does a girl like this bring a man? What good is she? If he has to fight with her just to get a cup of coffee, or has to punish her just to get her to fold his shirts or part her legs, why tolerate her?

I cannot answer that; you would have to ask my Master. The very fact that he keeps me seems to indicate he sees at least some use in me though.
I also -no longer- fight him over ever cup of coffee. Because of the control he has already established in the past. Just like a mustang -once broken in- CAN be ridden. However, should he release that control, it is my nature to revert back to fighting him over every cup of coffee. Just like a wild horse would throw of the rider who is not steady in the saddle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
I would prefer to have a woman who does what I want, how I want, when I want, without making it into a battle. Someone who serves me, who tends to my needs faithfully and devotedly without backtalk or argument. Give her any title you wish, but I just call her my woman.

Then I wish you such a woman, Master, and if I'm not mistaken, I do belief you have her.
However, different breeds of men like different...

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
This analogy of wild horses and women is in error in my view. A horse bucks, because having someone ride on its back is fundamentally unnatural, something strange that it was never designed for.

But most women by their very nature enjoy serving men. Most take to it readily, eagerly, without coercion or force.
They just find very few willing to lead and be unapologetically Patriarchal.

I think the key in this statement is "most" Master.
I belief most women are meant to be free women, not slaves.
I belief most men want a free woman/partner to stand by him, that they can count on, not a slave they NEED to control.
Most, not all women, take to this naturally, and I most certainly do not.
I am absolutely not in the least bit service orientated.
I used to be perceived to be very dominant, very self-orientated and very selfish by my vanilla friends.
I fought, and to some degree, still fight, everything and everybody over everything... I'm stubborn, argumentative, and I do not accept authority or leadership of anybody, unless they leave me no other choice.

However, at the same time, I also respond extremely well to dominance if I am in the position that I am not left any choice... Just like a mustang WILL respond to the trainer, if not left with a choice. As a herd animal, it is in its nature to follow a leader, just like it is in mine.
After that point where it's been made clear that the man will not give me a choice in the matter, a man can shape me into what he wants me to be, including service orientated, submissive and obedient if that's what he should want. But the bottom line always stays that I only remain what he wants as long as he "makes" me. This doesn't have to be a constant struggle on every little thing, but the underline of our relationship needs to be that he WILL make me if need to or I WILL throw him out of the saddle.

I function best like this, I don't know why, I just do.
Master seems to like it, I don't know why, I cannot understand it myself, because like you said: to me it just sounds like too much work to be worth it.
He claims that it is worth it to him, because he enjoys the very process of getting me where he wants me to be.
He enjoys the "fight".
I don't know why any more then I know why I enjoy the "fight".

I wish you well,

ishy

< Message edited by ishyB -- 12/25/2009 3:40:24 PM >

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/25/2009 4:23:06 PM

ElizabethAnne

Posts: 1710
Status: offline

Hello ish,

I think it's the definition of "slave" that is the issue. It does sound like he has the right "slave" for him, it's quite possible his definition and mine differ. From what he has said I too would call his a partner, while you ish, I know you ARE a slave. You would make a lousy partner. ~winks~

Take care wild ish, my best to your Master and Mistress.

Elizabeth

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Post #: 57