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Of love and mastery of a slave

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> Of love and mastery of a slave

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Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 9:34:53 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings girlies and lurkers,

The last few pages of the "Choosing"thread have been a discussion of love and slavery. Reading them, got me thinking about the subject of love and mastery of a Gorean man's slave.

My view is that good, healthy love strengthens a bond rather than weakening it. Thinking about that, and since this is off subject of the "Choosing" thread, I decided to create a thread on it and ask my questions here.

1) If a man's mastery over his slave is strong, why would adding love to the mix weaken that mastery?

2) It is said that if a Gorean man loves his slave, he must be harsher with her than with his other slaves , lest his hold on her as his slave weaken. Why? Surely if he feels his mastery of her weakening because he loves her, it is himself he needs to strengthen not the slave.

I wish all well,

zeph

< Message edited by zephyroftheNorth -- 12/20/2009 9:35:49 AM >

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 9:50:20 AM

mnottertail

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1) because you listen to their pleadings for an inch of rope, and this permits the slow undoing....

2) this is why it is imperative for a Master to step on your camels nose (or toe if you want to keep metaphors unmixed) the very nano second you try to piss in his tent.

Knute Angurvadel

edit: this thus thas thos --- one of them has to be right

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/20/2009 9:51:11 AM >

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Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 10:17:30 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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Greetings Master Ron,

Okay...but does love necessarily mean the slave will automatically say "Oh look an opening"? It seems to me if she is, she wasn't well mastered to begin with...and that's what I'm trying to get at. Furthermore, does it necessarily mean there is an opening?

I wish you well,

zeph

_____________________________

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 10:21:02 AM

Hiskajirah

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Greetings zeph

You asked -

1) If a man's mastery over his slave is strong, why would adding love to the mix weaken that mastery?

I think it depends on the personality and nature both. The mastery weakens when the slave uses that love to try to get over on him, manipulate him and then he's really not the one in charge or in the lead anymore, she is.

I also believe that if the mastery remains firm there's nothing wrong with love and I believe it can still survive the bonds of excellent mastery.

2) It is said that if a Gorean man loves his slave, he must be harsher with her than with his other slaves , lest his hold on her as his slave weaken. Why? Surely if he feels his mastery of her weakening because he loves her, it is himself he needs to strengthen not the slave.

A man can only be so strong. If he's up against one that won't submit to his will, but only to her own (manipulating and so forth) there's really not much he can do is there? 'cept let her go and try again or stay and keep her but I imagine neither would be happy or in love anymore. Oh he could beat her and all that but I can't imagine him having in her what he sought. It becomes mushy. Even in the books there was a situation that when the female fell in love and he his own emotions followed, he found himself weakening and stepping back.

Well wishes,
~twinkle

_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 10:24:31 AM

mnottertail

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No, not that the slave will look for an opening as a solid fact, but even a Master might give one where none was asked; to everyones detriment, and in any case, once any quarter is given or any negotiation undertaken (heavy on the any s) more appeasment is expected-------like you earthgirls say---------it's the little things that count.... now; I use Hup out here for the laugh, but remember his one forced (by others) sexual encounter led him to his ultimate destruction in his infatuous defense of she who actually spent most of her time despising or pitying his pathetic state. And that is not so far off the beam or so isolated an incident in a mans life or experience.

Just Sayin'

Hup

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/20/2009 10:27:10 AM >

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 10:30:14 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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Greetings twink,

I'm glad you answered because when I think of love working in a relationship between a Gorean man and his slave I think of you and your Master.

I agree that it depends on the man and his slave. I also think it depends on when in the relationship love rears it's ugly head. Surely if the love appears after he has mastered her and the relationship is a strong one it has a better chance of surviving than if it happens at the beginning.

You said: If he's up against one that won't submit to his will, but only to her own (manipulating and so forth) there's really not much he can do is there?

Wouldn't that mean he hadn't mastered her and chances are the relationship was doomed anyway?

I wish you well,

zeph

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 10:35:48 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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Greetings Master Ron,

Okay now I get what you're saying, using that incident with Hup clarified it well for me.

I can see how a Master showing love for his slave could cause her to feel contempt for him and see him as weak for loving her. This being Earth though, how likely do you think it is that this would happen?

I wish you well,

zeph

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 10:38:02 AM

mnottertail

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Read the epicurian philosophy of Ninon L'enclos

case closed.

Talleyrand (and were Voltaire here he would agree with me)

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 10:59:04 AM

Hiskajirah

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Greetings zeph

Thank you.

I like to believe everything has a chance. I think it would depend on when the manipulating (and or any similars began).

I've known some who've seemingly moved forward complete Master and slave and later the changes started, perhaps because of the time put into it and the love that evolved. I've known others who've seemed to start off rocky, the man had much work to do and the slave was still doing much testing.

I don't know anyone who's been in a relationship as long as I have so I can't really relate to others and because of that, they can't so much relate with me.

But I can say this much.. I'm as much as a slave to the love I have for him as I am the slave itself. In the same sense I know I'm loved... very loved.

Warm wishes,
~twinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

Greetings twink,

I'm glad you answered because when I think of love working in a relationship between a Gorean man and his slave I think of you and your Master.

I agree that it depends on the man and his slave. I also think it depends on when in the relationship love rears it's ugly head. Surely if the love appears after he has mastered her and the relationship is a strong one it has a better chance of surviving than if it happens at the beginning.

You said: If he's up against one that won't submit to his will, but only to her own (manipulating and so forth) there's really not much he can do is there?

Wouldn't that mean he hadn't mastered her and chances are the relationship was doomed anyway?

I wish you well,

zeph

_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)

Post #: 9

RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 11:10:35 AM

AnimusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth
My view is that good, healthy love strengthens a bond rather than weakening it.

Truer words were never spoken.

There is a line of thinking that I view with skepticism- it occurs in both BDSM and Gor. Mostly it goes along the lines that love is somehow a threat or detriment to Mastery, that love becomes a problem to be solved.
The corollary to this is that true, actual Mastery (not the sort that posers and fakes have) is something deeper, something far more intense and grand and exotic, superior to the mundane Mr. & Mrs. Vanilla stuff.

The problem I have with this, is that by making this thing we call Mastery into something strange and exotic and superior, it elevates the bar to success to impossible levels. Does Mastery really need to be this bizarre Svengali state of psychic bond? Is the relationship really so absolute, so dramatic as to be equal to a science fiction novel?

That sounds more like a teenage romantic notion of Prince Charming and My Perfect Wedding Day, than a real person who lives a real life.

We have had a few threads about the silly girls who put up profiles that breathlessly gush about how they want to be "absolute 24/7 TPE slaves" with "no rights, no limits, no escape" and how they will do ANYTHING, yes ANYTHING no matter how sick, how bizarre, that My Lord and Master wants!
Except of course, she won't do housework, and won't tolerate a second girl.

I can only speak from my own life experience- but I believe that love can be the engine that drives a level of servitude that goes deeper, further, to more extremes than any kink.

BDSM is for the most part based on the fantasies of the Marquis de Sade, and The Story of O. It is meant to be kinky, strange and exotic.
Gor, by contrast is based on reality; it isn't a fantasy dreamed up out of whole cloth, but has real predecessors, real case studies we can look at and draw from. Ancient Rome, the Native Americans, Scandinavian Vikings, etc. were the models that formed the basis of the books. Unlike BDSM, Gor is not a kinky version of "Lets play harem slave and Sultan". It is something you can actually live, day in and day out.

I live next door to an Afghan family. They live in the traditional Patriarchal way, where the women are veiled, and literally the property of their husbands. I would argue they are living as true and absolute a Gorean life as anyone reading this. Yet the Patriarch of the family clearly loves his wife and children, and has no trouble expressing it. He doesn't seem to have any of this psychic conflict, he doesn't seem to sit around navel gazing and pondering "did she fetch my coffee because she loves me, or because she is compelled by a force beyond her will?"

People like this are the model for how Kim and I live, and it is what draws me to Gor in the first place. I don't really see the advantage in turing so natural and normal a thing as servitude and ownership into something strange and exotic, accessible only to a select priesthood.

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 11:12:10 AM

estah

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Greetings zephr,

verity does not actively seek for a weakness in the mastery her Master has over her, but she does know that is she senses a weakness she will go for a kill. In the past to prevent herself becoming something she would despise and to prevent emotions turning negative she has ended a relationship with a man she submitted to due to the fact she came to love him and him her. He showed weakness and verity started to manipulate things. This slave is not sure if she is the only here, but that is how verity is in this situation, if the mastery remains intact then there is no weakness and therefore nothing to manipulate. No need to go in for the kill.

verity

_____________________________

It all comes down to choice...we chose how we see things...we chose what we say...what we do...we chose who we are.

Better a cold truth then a warm lie

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 11:18:53 AM

breatheasone

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Excellent post AnimusRex! Very insightful, i also do not understand how love is a liability.

Also i'd like to wish zephyroftheNorth good luck on deciding to become Gorean! i hope you find what you are looking for, and that you have a pleasant journey finding it!

_____________________________

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 11:30:42 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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Greetings Master Animus,

This is exactly and precisely what I was thinking when I wrote the OP only much better expressed.

I just can't see love as something that weakens, when felt, it strengthens. To me, a slave who is going to try to manipulate....and succeeds...hasn't been mastered at all.

I know there is example upon example in the books where love didn't work and only resulted in the destruction of the man's mastery over his slave, but well that's the books, we are living, breathing human beings.

Thank you again for putting so beautifully what I was trying to express.

I wish you well,

zeph

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The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 11:33:16 AM

estah

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Greetings zeph,

There is many ways to see it, for verity it is a case of prefering to serve because she is mastered then serving because she loves, the first part she needs, the second part she can live without.

verity

_____________________________

It all comes down to choice...we chose how we see things...we chose what we say...what we do...we chose who we are.

Better a cold truth then a warm lie

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 11:34:19 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

Greetings zephr,

verity does not actively seek for a weakness in the mastery her Master has over her, but she does know that is she senses a weakness she will go for a kill. In the past to prevent herself becoming something she would despise and to prevent emotions turning negative she has ended a relationship with a man she submitted to due to the fact she came to love him and him her. He showed weakness and verity started to manipulate things. This slave is not sure if she is the only here, but that is how verity is in this situation, if the mastery remains intact then there is no weakness and therefore nothing to manipulate. No need to go in for the kill.

verity

Greetings verity,

But why does love imply weakness? In healthy, non-Gorean relationships it strengthens the bond, why should it be any different simply because the relationship is an M/s one?

I agree with you, I've been the same way; any sign of weakening in the man and that's it game over. But I don't see love as being one of those things.

ETA: I just saw your second post. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying love must be present in all M/s relationships, just that when it is love need not be the end of the relationship

I wish you well,

zeph

< Message edited by zephyroftheNorth -- 12/20/2009 11:36:09 AM >

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 11:40:57 AM

estah

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Greetings zeph,

It does not need to be the end of a relationship. It can be the end of the relationship. And in the experience of verity it was. verity has seen love strength a relationship or weaken it, feelings are a neutral things, it is how we chose to act on them that makes the difference.

verity

_____________________________

It all comes down to choice...we chose how we see things...we chose what we say...what we do...we chose who we are.

Better a cold truth then a warm lie

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Post #: 16

RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 11:44:48 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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Greetings verity,

Thank you for clarifying. Obviously whatever keeps your relationship strong is a good thing. If it means keeping love out of the relationship, that makes it no less a valid relationship than one in which there is love.

I wish you and your Master a long and happy relationship,

zeph

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 11:46:34 AM

estah

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Greetings zeph,

Thank you much for your well wishes. verity cares for her Master and Mistress very much, but she knows she would serve them with the same devotion even if she did not. She does not need love, but it is a great thing to have and to experience.

verity

_____________________________

It all comes down to choice...we chose how we see things...we chose what we say...what we do...we chose who we are.

Better a cold truth then a warm lie

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)

Post #: 18

RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 11:49:39 AM

Hiskajirah

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Greetings zeph

This is why even though I'm fairly well versed in the books and understand the meaning behind them, we live by what is realistic. The institution of marriage didn't exist in the books. A man doesn't marry his slave. They can be free companions. We're certainly not going to get divorced to fit this. He is my Master and I am his slave. I cannot say I've always been mastered, but I can say I've always been property. Back in the day it was by marriage that a woman became the property of man.

Master AnimusRex said "I can only speak from my own life experience- but I believe that love can be the engine that drives a level of servitude that goes deeper, further, to more extremes than any kink"

And I couldn't agree more. I have a hard time believing those that say... I don't want love, I don't need love, I rather have his mastery...

Everyone yearns to feel love.

It takes finding the right master and the man finding the right slave. All females manipulate to a point. We got Adam to bite that apple didn't we? Come're baby, look at this.. ? Doesn't it look yummy..? She probably enticed him, teased his lips with it's juices..even thought he already said NO.. he submitted and ate.

And men, sometimes they do things similar even still.. it doesn't always mean their union is headed for doom.. but it does mean he can't keep allowing it or it will become doomed.

I mean.. I've gotten something a time or two after sucking his yum yum like a golf ball out of a garden hose...

Does that mean I manipulated him? ~laughs

Warm wishes,
~twinkle

_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)

Post #: 19

RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 11:55:08 AM

zephyroftheNorth

Posts: 8159
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Greetings twinkle,

quote:

I have a hard time believing those that say... I don't want love, I don't need love, I rather have his mastery...

See that's what I'm thinking....why does it have to be a choice, love OR mastery?

quote:

I mean.. I've gotten something a time or two after sucking his yum yum like a golf ball out of a garden hose...

I don't pretend to speak for your Master, but I suspect it may have had some influence *grins*

I wish you well,

zeph

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

Team Troll Trollop
Member: Cocksuckers For World Peace
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Member: Subbie Mafia
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