Choice, hopefully without stupidity (Full Version)

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Dinnardin -> Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 10:17:26 AM)

In a previous thread hopelessly ruined by 2 idiots, surrenderwithin posted the following question:

quote:

I originally asked this in the ASk a sub or slave section, but I think the answers I am looking for would be more from a Gorean slave rather than a BDSM slave. Please pardon the double post but I am also interested in comparing the feedback between the two forums.

I was reading on some message boards today and one of the topics sparked an interesting thought for me. The topic was directed to slaves.

The question was basically this : At what point did you decide to accept that you are a slave? What lead you to choose to be a slave. I know most slaves will say that I didnt choose slavery it choose me. I acknowledge that is likely true but at some point you had to say... Ok, I know this is who I am and accept that choosing to walk in the knowledge of who and what you are. When or how did you realize/decide to accept that and say, " yes, I am a slave".

For me I am sure it was a series of events and I am not ready to write about my thoughts yet as I am still collecting my thoughts and sorting through them. In the meantime I would be interested to hear from other slaves on this topic.

Any takers?


I herein throw this back open for actual discussion, hopefully without the idiocy and rancor which spoiled the original thread.

John, AKA Dinnardin



kajirastar -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 10:19:28 AM)

nice way to start a civil conversation. Does that mean your more uber gorean, wait im confused i thought they were supposed to be above all that.  (MIGRAINE)


because the subject is dear to my heart;

The first moment of realization more than terrified me, as if those invisible chains were heavy and very tight, grasping at me. Every step i made seemed more difficult. Therefore at that time, i couldnt do or say anything right, as i was trying so desperately to release those chains. DAMN HIM! im not His toy! im not something He can chain and do as He pleases with!  im so much more!!!!!!  but every breathe i took told me i was wrong. Days went by in agony. My only relief came when i was near Him, yet i hated Him all that much more. i wanted to run, and tried in various forms, fighting, denial, clawing..... yet i could not. As i pushed Him away it was as if the chains were linked to Him and pushing Him away meant i would be even more suffocated.... i struggled for months, with the fear of those invisable chains, i hated them, i hated Him and i did my best to destroy it before it consumed me. i still struggle at times. im still a wild slave, but trainable and naturally slave'ish(?). But as time went on i found comfort and freedom in those chains. They held me close in times of sorrow. They held me back from doing things that i know would not please Master, and those chains those damn chains, made me kneel at His feet and beg His touch, His lust, His desires. They kept me warm at night when i was alone. And they freed me, when i needed to fly. Those chains are here always and serve to hold U/us together.....always.......



zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 10:24:16 AM)

Greetings to Free
Greetings to the girlies and those who lurk,

Responding to the question, to me it hasn't been so much a matter of choosing to be a slave as it is whether or not to fight it. Sometimes it's easy for me to submit as a slave, other times it's a fight for me to not yell out "FUCK no!" and leave. How I react to a man depends very much on the man. For me, the basics are already there, all that is required is a strong man to bring it out in me.

Growing up though, I was, like so many other slaves, eager to please. I found it hard to speak up and so did what I was told. It got me taken advantage of so I learned to speak up and that lead to going to the other extreme.

These days there is more of a balance but as I said in my first paragraph it depends on the man and how I respond to him.

edited because I misunderstood the question [8|]

I wish you all well,

zeph



daemonskasumi -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 10:30:06 AM)

I am not sure about the moment or the catalyst that made me accept that I was a slave.  I know that I was missing something and when I found the Gorean books, the philosophies and attitudes resonated with me.  My husband and I got divorced at about this time, and I went searching for a Owner. 

That first relationship took so much work.  I knew nothing and couldn't seem to do anything right.  I fought against everything, sometimes with no better reason than "I don't want to do that."  I was, I imagine, really hard to deal with.  Over time though, something grew, a small warmth that would swell inside me when he nodded, or smiled, or called me a good girl.  When he showed me off to friends, or told me that I had done well.  Those are the moments that I learned to strive for, to live for.  I think those are the moments that cemented my desire into a need. 

I've been in several relationships since then.  I'm still learning.  I'm with a non-Gorean now and honestly, its been very, very difficult for me.  I feel like I'm back to square one, and I am relearning how to live for the smiles, nods, and quiet praise that comes with a job well done.

I may not have chosen to be a slave, it might have been in my nature all along, but I certainly chose to continue on the path, and I continue to do so, because it fufills a simple but basic need in my life.  I need to be needed.  I need to be useful.  Those are the things that bind my slavery and keep my feet on the treacherous and winding path.





tazzygirl -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 10:30:42 AM)

quote:

I originally asked this in the ASk a sub or slave section, but I think the answers I am looking for would be more from a Gorean slave rather than a BDSM slave. Please pardon the double post but I am also interested in comparing the feedback between the two forums.

I was reading on some message boards today and one of the topics sparked an interesting thought for me. The topic was directed to slaves.

The question was basically this : At what point did you decide to accept that you are a slave? What lead you to choose to be a slave. I know most slaves will say that I didnt choose slavery it choose me. I acknowledge that is likely true but at some point you had to say... Ok, I know this is who I am and accept that choosing to walk in the knowledge of who and what you are. When or how did you realize/decide to accept that and say, " yes, I am a slave".

For me I am sure it was a series of events and I am not ready to write about my thoughts yet as I am still collecting my thoughts and sorting through them. In the meantime I would be interested to hear from other slaves on this topic.

Any takers?


I herein throw this back open for actual discussion, hopefully without the idiocy and rancor which spoiled the original thread.

John, AKA Dinnardin



greetings Free

hi girls

since Master was kind enough to repost this, i feel i should respond.

i dont believe i ever accepted i was a slave. there are certainly moments in my past, and even today, that i wish i had never heard of the term. too many use the term as derogatory... i just view it as how i am.

from childhood, my focus was on pleasing, something that would, at times, drive my poor mother up the wall. i just couldnt seem to help myself. from cooking to cleaning, from mediating family arguments to playing devils advocate, it was all done with the goal to please and keep the peace.

but a part of me wanted even then, even now, to have some autonomy. something at which i fail to obtain in the light of someone with more dominance than myself. i end up wanting to make people happy, those around me to find a form of peace.

its a struggle, sometimes daily, to find that path on which so many have set me upon. sometimes we dont see in ourselves what others see. i have spoken to men and seen what i called a "gorean" light, even while they disavowed that notion. others have said they saw that same light within me.

i did not chose slavery... i am what and how i am by nature... my nature is that of a slave... no choice in the matter at all. i finally recognized i was a slave a few years back while under the control of another. some here know that story... the rest who do not, the story doesnt matter. but even through the sad times there, i realized i am what i am, i cannot battle against it anymore. i suppose that is a form of acceptance. i just understand that it wasnt a choice

well wishes

tazzy



eponavet -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 10:47:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


greetings Free

hi girls

since Master was kind enough to repost this, i feel i should respond.

i dont believe i ever accepted i was a slave. there are certainly moments in my past, and even today, that i wish i had never heard of the term. too many use the term as derogatory... i just view it as how i am.

from childhood, my focus was on pleasing, something that would, at times, drive my poor mother up the wall. i just couldnt seem to help myself. from cooking to cleaning, from mediating family arguments to playing devils advocate, it was all done with the goal to please and keep the peace.

but a part of me wanted even then, even now, to have some autonomy. something at which i fail to obtain in the light of someone with more dominance than myself. i end up wanting to make people happy, those around me to find a form of peace.

its a struggle, sometimes daily, to find that path on which so many have set me upon. sometimes we dont see in ourselves what others see. i have spoken to men and seen what i called a "gorean" light, even while they disavowed that notion. others have said they saw that same light within me.

i did not chose slavery... i am what and how i am by nature... my nature is that of a slave... no choice in the matter at all. i finally recognized i was a slave a few years back while under the control of another. some here know that story... the rest who do not, the story doesnt matter. but even through the sad times there, i realized i am what i am, i cannot battle against it anymore. i suppose that is a form of acceptance. i just understand that it wasnt a choice

well wishes

tazzy


Hi tazzy,

This really struck home for me.....and i'm wondering if you can elaborate on why the qualities you mentioned above are, for you, slave qualities. I am not a slave and like you mentioned, i am currently stating, in my profile and in my life, that i do not want to be a slave....but i do struggle with always trying to make others happy, even to the point where on Christmas, i ended up having an argument with me ex, whom i cooked dinner for b/c he had no one - after i ran around visitong everyone else...an argument where he heard me tell him one thing, my b/f another and my mom apparently another. When he pointed it out to me in not so nice a way, he made me feel like a liar and deceiver (this was not a major life issue per se, it was about a possible upcoming move and the reasons and logistics of it all...). Which i'm not. He eventually clarified and said exactly what you mentioned - i am so busy trying to make everyone happy that i tell them what they want to hear, i do what they want me to do and i end up confused, stretched way too thin and never really sure about anything. I saw his point, after i was done crying and yelling about it (after cooking him his dinner which he then passively aggressively didn't eat...ahhh, the joys of ex's knowing what buttons to push [:-]...) and i do wonder how being a slave might alter that and if it is a cop out to allow someone else to make those decisions just because i don't know how to.

So anyways, just rambling thoughts. I don't think i chose my nature, i'm just not sure if there is a "right" way to embrace one's strengths and weaknesses.

~ Epona



tazzygirl -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 10:54:51 AM)

hi epona

as im about to head out the door for work.. and looking so forward to getting around the Steelers game at Heinz... lol... forgive me for not answering you now. But i will once i get back tonight.

i just didnt want you to think i was ignoring your post [:)]

tazzy



barelynangel -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 10:58:00 AM)

I posted this in the other forum prior to this one being posted in the unmentionable and now i am posting it here. I was a Gorean slave and this is how i came to accept slave in myself:

I am slave -- mind you not A SLAVE at the moment -- simply because i am susceptible to being mastered and enslaved by a Man or certain Men wherein his determinations and expectations sand strength are my governing force not my own autonomy and self-determination. This is a need in me. I am slave because i am susceptible to Men who are able to create the environment wherein i exist in his life as he determines. Again this is a need in me. i am slave because i am susceptible to my autonomy and self-determination being taken by a Man who is capable of doing so. Its a need to which i rarely will exist comfortably with Men NOT capable of doing this. I am also slave because i will try and use my sexuality to please Men in general its very instinctive for me and i understand my sexuality belongs to Men and that is also my nature. I need their accepttance of this from Men, i need them not to be intimidated by this part of me, i need them to exploit and demand this part of me to be expressed within the vulnerability of their control and demands, i need them to manipulate this to hold me in their determinations for me. I am slave because with certain Men i need to be mastered and enslaved to exist as they determine and to have them take my self-determination. Its a reactions and instinct i cannot control. Slave is a need within for mastery by a Man, not a determination to be a slave on my part -- in the end he makes me an actual slave through his determinations and his will. i cannot help but gravitate to these strong men who know how to use mastery and my own needs against me to gain what they wish. I thrive and yes, expec this of men, if they cannot deliver, i as slave wll attempt to manipulate them into feeding this need of mine. or simple seek from Man to Man until i find what my needs force me to seek.

I am adding this as i saw someone indicate in another thread that slaves are empowered by what they are given, i disagree, to me a slave is empowered because she is utterly powerless. This need for the empowerment of being powerless is an ultimate need in me, for it allows me no risk of self-determination.

Its about my needs, instincts and reactions to mastery not my choices. But its also about what HE is capable of also.

I am not slave because i have some need to serve just to serve (not all people who are slaves are service oriented) or because i have some need to please everyone and anyone, not even the Man who owns me all of the time. Its funny because what most people don't get is MANY women who are slaves to Men are actually very dominant in nature. Its the mastery and enslavement by which they live UNDER the determinations of the Man who owns them that he determines how he holds them in slavery and what expectations and standards they must reach. Many people mistake what they observe of slaves as a concept of they are ultra submissives -- usually this is not true. Many times they are slaves because they are NOT submissive by nature but reactionary to the mastery and enslavement of the Man who determines they exist by the expectations and standards of the Man who has determined to own them and is capable of holding them in slavery of his determination, a Man willing to exploit them and their sexuality to control them and ultimately own them.

Its not a concept of choosing to be, or making a decision to obey (i.e., slaves many times are and can be disobedient, its not a concept of enjoying to serve and please (people do that all over the world daily and it doesn't make them slaves) to be, being slave is simply in my nature when the right conditions arise based on a Man's determination and his will is such i can only be what naturally compels me. However, many slaves do find enjoyment and excitement and pleasure and contentment in serving and pleasing, slaves do not exist in drudgery of misery to be slaves.

I am a dominant nature, that doesn't disappear when i am a slave, its simply that his will, determinations etc, are such that i naturally exist in his life reaching for his expectations and standards because he has taken my autonomy and self-determination to exist as i determine in his life. i feed off his mastery, i need, and am enslaved by his mastery. Without the mastery and holding of me by his determination wherein he uses his mastery, my needs etc to hold me as he desires, especially if he loves me, i will grasp my self-determination and use it and many times scorn him for his weakness in loving me, i don't play a slave when a Man is incapable of holding me through mastery as he determines.

With such a Man or Men capable of this, i exist naturally and comfortably on my knees living by his determination, expectations, standards and such. However, not all Men are this Man. Some days i get it right, some days i don't, and some days its a mixture of everything. grins, the concept of dominant nature and being slave nature is always so much fun to watch how people react to it. What's funny is also that i know given a CHOICE by a Man to be his slave, my answer to such a CHOICE is ummm no lol, why the hell would any logical woman wish to LIVE IN SLAVERY -- even if it is detrimental to myself as i am my own worse enemy. Most Men i know don't ASK a slave to make a choice to be A slave, they make the choice for her wherein she simply is what he determines her to be and simply wait for her to finally get it and acknowledge same.

Choosing to be a slave is kind of oxymoronic to me due to the fact that if you choose to be a slave you are determining what slave means and in all actuality the woman who is the slave doesn't CHOOSE what slave is but instead lives by the determinations and expectations of the Man who has determined to master and enslave her so she exists as he determines in his life. I think too many people try and CHOOSE to be a slave and that is where their frustrations come in because the actuality of HIS determinations for her doesn't match up to what she has determined for herself being a slave. This is one of the biggest things i struggle with for slave was forged based on no prior knowledge, and now with prior knowledge, its hard to be a clean slate.

Many people within Gor believe a woman who begs a collar is choosing to be a slave, i disagree, i believe if she gets to that point she is already mastered and enslaved and all the begging of the collar is is an acknowledgment of her realization of her existance in His and lives of Men and more so her existance to one man.

I know there are women who are easier held than i, and i know there are women far harder to hold than i. However, in the end its all very simple, its all about cost and value to the Man who determines to own a slave.

angel



Musicmystery -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 11:07:43 AM)

Tal John,

I hope this doesn't just become part B. This is really a question for the girls, but under the circumstances, I will share a few thoughts.

The OP really answered her own question regarding choosing to be a slave, acknowledging in her way that the girls were simply responding to their own nature. She goes on to ask, really, about the moment of realization that a girl is a slave by nature, and more specifically, wonders whether slaves of Gorean men have a similar or different experience than BDSM/TPE slaves. That Gorean connection is where the original thread was derailed, post 4, with the declaration that Gor is merely fiction, and ignoring that the OP was looking for the experience of, in fact, Gorean slaves.

As we've all explained many times before, the Gor series are a close scrutiny of our society, how technology and misrepresented cultural gender roles have weakened humankind and made existence much less satisfactory than it could and should be. On Gor, Norman presents an environment that changes this. We are not technologically superior. We are part of the food chain. Reward and well-being is based on accomplishment. Lives are active and real. Society and people evolve in ways in accordance with the order of nature--and specifically, our nature, both good and ill.

When we are living under artificial constructions, we are unfulfilled and unhappy. When we can see past societal conditioning, we can begin to live our true natures and flourish. For a slave, this is the realization the OP mentions. A girl can do as society suggests, protect her sexuality, seal herself off from life, guard her existence--or realize that every part of her nature cries out to be taken, used, and held in slavery by a strong man, a man who doesn't cave at the usual feminine efforts at control, a man who recognizes not only his own nature, but that she really wants him to take control, that she can only be happy when he does. Even vanilla society has recognized this for decades, bemoaning when a woman has to take the leadership role in a household because for whatever reason the man is not up to it. While I also know exceptions, I know of many BDSM relationships where, despite the rhetoric, the girl is in control. This would simply never happen in a Gorean household--not because we are hung up on being ubar anything, but because we know how to live our natures, and take that seriously, at every moment of every day.

The moment of realization the OP mentions is common to all true growth, I think. I can point to several--recognizing on stage, for example, that I'm effortlessly showcasing compositions I used to struggle just to get the notes, let alone master them. The same is true of writing. The same is true of personal growth--one day, you reflect and realize the change has happened.

And that's the key. Time takes time. But in time, a girl realizes the change, realizes she has been mastered, and knows with the certainty of deep nature that she is happier than she could ever be free. Held securely in her slavery, she is free to be completely who she really is.

People are often confused when Goreans say "it's not about the slaves." It's true--the slaves are a symptom, not the principle. Goreans instead strive to do exactly as I often sign off...

Live well. Fiercely and freely--and for a girl, that freedom means her place at the feet of her Master.

I wish you well,

Tim





eponavet -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 11:28:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I posted this in the other forum prior to this one being posted in the unmentionable and now i am posting it here. I was a Gorean slave and this is how i came to accept slave in myself:

I am slave -- mind you not A SLAVE at the moment -- simply because i am susceptible to being mastered and enslaved by a Man or certain Men wherein his determinations and expectations sand strength are my governing force not my own autonomy and self-determination. This is a need in me. I am slave because i am susceptible to Men who are able to create the environment wherein i exist in his life as he determines. Again this is a need in me. i am slave because i am susceptible to my autonomy and self-determination being taken by a Man who is capable of doing so. Its a need to which i rarely will exist comfortably with Men NOT capable of doing this. I am also slave because i will try and use my sexuality to please Men in general its very instinctive for me and i understand my sexuality belongs to Men and that is also my nature. I need their accepttance of this from Men, i need them not to be intimidated by this part of me, i need them to exploit and demand this part of me to be expressed within the vulnerability of their control and demands, i need them to manipulate this to hold me in their determinations for me. I am slave because with certain Men i need to be mastered and enslaved to exist as they determine and to have them take my self-determination. Its a reactions and instinct i cannot control. Slave is a need within for mastery by a Man, not a determination to be a slave on my part -- in the end he makes me an actual slave through his determinations and his will. i cannot help but gravitate to these strong men who know how to use mastery and my own needs against me to gain what they wish. I thrive and yes, expec this of men, if they cannot deliver, i as slave wll attempt to manipulate them into feeding this need of mine. or simple seek from Man to Man until i find what my needs force me to seek.

I am adding this as i saw someone indicate in another thread that slaves are empowered by what they are given, i disagree, to me a slave is empowered because she is utterly powerless. This need for the empowerment of being powerless is an ultimate need in me, for it allows me no risk of self-determination.

Its about my needs, instincts and reactions to mastery not my choices. But its also about what HE is capable of also.

I am not slave because i have some need to serve just to serve (not all people who are slaves are service oriented) or because i have some need to please everyone and anyone, not even the Man who owns me all of the time. Its funny because what most people don't get is MANY women who are slaves to Men are actually very dominant in nature. Its the mastery and enslavement by which they live UNDER the determinations of the Man who owns them that he determines how he holds them in slavery and what expectations and standards they must reach. Many people mistake what they observe of slaves as a concept of they are ultra submissives -- usually this is not true. Many times they are slaves because they are NOT submissive by nature but reactionary to the mastery and enslavement of the Man who determines they exist by the expectations and standards of the Man who has determined to own them and is capable of holding them in slavery of his determination, a Man willing to exploit them and their sexuality to control them and ultimately own them.

Its not a concept of choosing to be, or making a decision to obey (i.e., slaves many times are and can be disobedient, its not a concept of enjoying to serve and please (people do that all over the world daily and it doesn't make them slaves) to be, being slave is simply in my nature when the right conditions arise based on a Man's determination and his will is such i can only be what naturally compels me. However, many slaves do find enjoyment and excitement and pleasure and contentment in serving and pleasing, slaves do not exist in drudgery of misery to be slaves.

I am a dominant nature, that doesn't disappear when i am a slave, its simply that his will, determinations etc, are such that i naturally exist in his life reaching for his expectations and standards because he has taken my autonomy and self-determination to exist as i determine in his life. i feed off his mastery, i need, and am enslaved by his mastery. Without the mastery and holding of me by his determination wherein he uses his mastery, my needs etc to hold me as he desires, especially if he loves me, i will grasp my self-determination and use it and many times scorn him for his weakness in loving me, i don't play a slave when a Man is incapable of holding me through mastery as he determines.

With such a Man or Men capable of this, i exist naturally and comfortably on my knees living by his determination, expectations, standards and such. However, not all Men are this Man. Some days i get it right, some days i don't, and some days its a mixture of everything. grins, the concept of dominant nature and being slave nature is always so much fun to watch how people react to it. What's funny is also that i know given a CHOICE by a Man to be his slave, my answer to such a CHOICE is ummm no lol, why the hell would any logical woman wish to LIVE IN SLAVERY -- even if it is detrimental to myself as i am my own worse enemy. Most Men i know don't ASK a slave to make a choice to be A slave, they make the choice for her wherein she simply is what he determines her to be and simply wait for her to finally get it and acknowledge same.

Choosing to be a slave is kind of oxymoronic to me due to the fact that if you choose to be a slave you are determining what slave means and in all actuality the woman who is the slave doesn't CHOOSE what slave is but instead lives by the determinations and expectations of the Man who has determined to master and enslave her so she exists as he determines in his life. I think too many people try and CHOOSE to be a slave and that is where their frustrations come in because the actuality of HIS determinations for her doesn't match up to what she has determined for herself being a slave. This is one of the biggest things i struggle with for slave was forged based on no prior knowledge, and now with prior knowledge, its hard to be a clean slate.

Many people within Gor believe a woman who begs a collar is choosing to be a slave, i disagree, i believe if she gets to that point she is already mastered and enslaved and all the begging of the collar is is an acknowledgment of her realization of her existance in His and lives of Men and more so her existance to one man.

I know there are women who are easier held than i, and i know there are women far harder to hold than i. However, in the end its all very simple, its all about cost and value to the Man who determines to own a slave.

angel




Thanks angel for a very helpful post.



yellowroses -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 1:55:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinnardin
The question was basically this : At what point did you decide to accept that you are a slave?


I have always wanted to please.Long before I even read a book or heard the terms. At times it hasn't been good for me necessarily. I first became familar with the term slave in a yahoo BDSM chat room. I began chatting with several "Masters" and they would use the term slave on me. I suppose I kind of sort of felt like a slave.
My first R/L Master/slave relationship was a disaster. I did accept that I was a slave however and I stayed in relationship for the amount of time that we had each discussed. When it was over I was extremely relieved. I was drained physically, mentally and financially. I even hated the word "slave" and "BDSM" since it seemed likean excuse for a man to just get a free ride.

But even with that very bad experience I knew in my heart serving and taking care of a man was what I was born to do.

With the right person of course. I am extremely happy to serve Animus. I enjoy spending the day thinking of things to make him happy and make his life more pleasant. We don't really use the words Master and slave with each other. We just act as we feel natural and normal.



eponavet -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 2:19:05 PM)

It's interesting to hear the different "driving forces" perceived by different people. Again, that there is no blueprint for life....

If it's not too far off topic, i'd be interested in hearing/discussing people's views on serving versus mastery, because i'm feeling like these are 2 very different aspects of why a girl embraces her slave nature. Subtle differences maybe, but definitely not the same thing - as described so far.

Thanks!

~ Epona

My thoughts are - and this is an observation mostly....serving is part of a submissive nature and can happen with or without a Master. Serving may not be related at all to one's slave nature - it would then be a man's mastery that determined if one was submissive or slave...so, if i extrapolate from there (whoopee....) one cannot choose to be a slave.

Debate time... [;)]




zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 2:28:40 PM)

Greetings epona

Could you clarify what you mean by serving vs mastery? Oh btw love the new pic!

I wish you well,

zeph



eponavet -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 2:30:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

Greetings epona

Could you clarify what you mean by serving vs mastery? Oh btw love the new pic!

I wish you well,

zeph



Thanks zeph!

Read my edited post, which i was adding to when you posted and see if that expands some on what i'm thinking. [:)] I'm still working it out myself!



eponavet -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 2:35:42 PM)

How about this....? Maybe....

Serving is something we do.

Mastery is something that is done to us.

What do you think?

~ Epona



UniqueRaven -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 3:30:03 PM)

It was never a choice.

i've known since i was very, very young that i was meant to be "kept" by a man, for his fun, amusement and pleasure, in service and thrall to him.  My earliest fantasies and daydreams - before i even knew sex existed - were around this very concept, and i enjoyed them very, very much.

i didn't know what M/s even was until my mid-20s, when i was already in my vanilla marriage (God bless the internet).  i came to realize very quickly that there were others "out there" like me, and that my needs were not "sick" as my vanilla husband called them.  Suffice it to say when my marriage ended (for reasons other than my slave need) i immediately took the 90 degree turn directly into slavehood - where i should have been all along - and never looked back.

It is interesting that i do have an outgoing, gregarious personality, and am quite skilled in project management and people management.  i am physically strong, charismatic, and generally am the life of the party.  i think many of my vanilla friends would find it hard to reconcile my personality with who i really *am* - which is slave.  And when i have met naturally Dominant men, or Masters, they sense immediately that i am in actuality, deeply, deeply, submissive, and my vanilla skills are all held by me in value for *him* - for his use and pleasure, in service, which is exactly where i need to be.

So in summary, to answer the question, as others have said, it was never a choice for me.  It was an actualization - and then a tremendous sense of peace.

Blessings to all,
julie

--- i also hold service, submission, and slavery to be three different things.  Would be interesting to have a new thread started around this concept, if others agree or would like to discuss.[:)]




Maahsatti -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 3:52:47 PM)

Greetings yellowroses,

I do not know you or the man you say you experienced your first service to as slave...they say there are always 3 sides to a story, his hers and the truth...I guess that gets stuck in between both.

I will say however that any true man that I have known and even met as a Gorean needed nor wanted no free ride from a woman let alone a slave.

I would suspect that perhaps it may be possible that your experience was not in fact what a slave held in a good Mastery would have experienced and if you claim still as you do to have a nature to serve then I suggest to keep looking and be careful and smarter this time. I think that will or should be easier having experienced what you did.

Mistress Maahsatti




BeingChewsie -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 4:00:17 PM)

Sometimes I think I made the "choice" the minute he gave me that as the only option to be in his life and to live in his household. Since option B didn't exist and since being with him far outweighed being free that to me was my only choice. I have learned that my reaction would be the same with anyone more powerful than myself who gave me the same "choice" so I am suited to and belong in a collar.



AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/27/2009 6:10:58 PM)

For me, I have always had the need to relate to men in a service orientation, as property. I seek that in men and when I don't find it I move on sooner or later. I have felt this way always since as long as I can remember, even when only about 5 or 6 it was present in the games I played. However, I wasn't aware of what it meant and even until after I was married I didn't understand it. When I first tried to be a slave, I chose it. I tried to mold it and the man wasn't mastering me, which turned out to be disastrous (geez, go figure [8|]). When next I became a slave again, it wasn't a choice at all. It happened to me, and begging the collar was, as others have said, only an acknowledgment of what had already in fact happened. I suppose the only choice was to accept it or run from it, and being unable to run from it... a girl simply accepts it.

Well wishes,
anna



tazzygirl -> RE: Choice, hopefully without stupidity (12/28/2009 6:47:31 AM)

quote:

Hi tazzy,

This really struck home for me.....and i'm wondering if you can elaborate on why the qualities you mentioned above are, for you, slave qualities. I am not a slave and like you mentioned, i am currently stating, in my profile and in my life, that i do not want to be a slave....but i do struggle with always trying to make others happy, even to the point where on Christmas, i ended up having an argument with me ex, whom i cooked dinner for b/c he had no one - after i ran around visitong everyone else...an argument where he heard me tell him one thing, my b/f another and my mom apparently another. When he pointed it out to me in not so nice a way, he made me feel like a liar and deceiver (this was not a major life issue per se, it was about a possible upcoming move and the reasons and logistics of it all...). Which i'm not. He eventually clarified and said exactly what you mentioned - i am so busy trying to make everyone happy that i tell them what they want to hear, i do what they want me to do and i end up confused, stretched way too thin and never really sure about anything. I saw his point, after i was done crying and yelling about it (after cooking him his dinner which he then passively aggressively didn't eat...ahhh, the joys of ex's knowing what buttons to push ...) and i do wonder how being a slave might alter that and if it is a cop out to allow someone else to make those decisions just because i don't know how to.

So anyways, just rambling thoughts. I don't think i chose my nature, i'm just not sure if there is a "right" way to embrace one's strengths and weaknesses.

~ Epona


quote:

i dont believe i ever accepted i was a slave. there are certainly moments in my past, and even today, that i wish i had never heard of the term. too many use the term as derogatory... i just view it as how i am.

from childhood, my focus was on pleasing, something that would, at times, drive my poor mother up the wall. i just couldnt seem to help myself. from cooking to cleaning, from mediating family arguments to playing devils advocate, it was all done with the goal to please and keep the peace.

but a part of me wanted even then, even now, to have some autonomy. something at which i fail to obtain in the light of someone with more dominance than myself. i end up wanting to make people happy, those around me to find a form of peace.


Hi epona

i will try to explain, but, be forwarned, it may get muddled. and i want to preface this with a thought... there is no blueprint to all this... no one true way.

for me... and i can only speak for myself... the desire to please has been what men have utilized to keep me at their feet. a form of exploitation, if you will. my father knew just the right words to make me work harder, smarter, longer, to achieve the results he desired. very few men take that time. but, when a man does, i find myself compelled to do as he wishes, to please him, to work harder, smarter, longer... to give him what he needs to find that peace.

for me, its a no brainer. i suppose some would view it differently. and, at times, i hate myself for being that "weak". but i also get excited when im with a man who knows how to use that weakness to gain what he wishes.

i hope that helps

tazzy



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