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Gor meets Earth - 12/27/2009 11:05:59 AM   
starshineowned


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Greetings..

Given that Gor is a Mans world..this is primarily tendered towards the Masters though any Free Goreans thoughts are appreciated.

There obviously can't be perfection or utopia in either world so I was wondering if you could take the best of both worlds..what would some key elements be that you'd wish to remove or implement from either to best create a new world.

well wishes

starshine


_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln
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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/27/2009 8:01:03 PM   
Aswad


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This isn't even a hypothetical possibility, as there is simply no viable migration path from what we have to something arbitrarily designed improvement that doesn't involve a substantial loss of life and shitloads of people scramming to get ther crap sorted, or takes a very long time and a lot of people going contrary to their nature. Incrementally improving things is another matter, but that's hardly what you were looking for here, is it?

A key point would be to abolish the nation state in its current form, but how are you going to enforce that without an institution with the same problems?

Humans are adverse to risk. Nobody really cares what's going on, so long as we all feel reasonably certain that the sky won't fall down tomorrow. Just keep the wheels turning and make sure that nothing changes too much, and everyone is content enough not to rise up and change things. Minorities above a certain size require integration, obviously, to avoid them rising up and changing things, as well. Avoid any wars you might actually lose. Ignore the long term in favor of whatever goes on inside the term you've been elected for, though in some countries there may be a tradeoff to avoid complications during the next election race to secure reelection.

Take care to thoroughly restrict freedom, but to never make it appear as though you are targetting any major voter block. Make sure to trump arbeit macht frei, kinder, küchen und kirche, und so weiter, und so weiter. People will give up anything for a feeling of security, whether for themselves or their children, or children generally, really. Keep them on the treadmill to acquire status symbols, and you don't risk anyone starting to think too much. Make sure they feel they have plenty to lose, so that even the ones that see problems will refuse to do anything to risk what they have. Let the young adults be disenfranchised enough that they can't rouse the older ones, since aversion to risk grows with increasing age. All these efforts stabilize things, and cultural prescription takes care of lubricating people.

Opium is the other route, but it's mostly illegal now.

Really, just like the US originally opposed independence, soo, too, any future improvement will be a small group of people deciding, against the will of the majority, to drag the rest, kicking and screaming, along for the ride. And once the dust from that settles, everyone will be happy again, of course. More or less, anyway. See, back in older cultures, the mediocre masses that were content to exist were held as slaves, and the rest were the actual citizens. Now, the inmates run the asylum, and the kwadirae are in each other's chains, which, given their desires, equates to freedom for them, in a functional, pragmatic sense. And, of course, the good of numbers, of replacable, mass produced, mediocre people- so it has been ingrained in us- outweighs Good.

If nobody's objecting, I'm pretty sure it ain't an improvement in that sense.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to starshineowned)
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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/27/2009 8:06:58 PM   
Kimveri


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*stands Applauding Aswad*

You, my friend, amaze me & give me much hope that there exist still just enough "Bloody Giants" to guarantee the survival of the human race....in spite of themselves!

<3

~K

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/27/2009 8:55:54 PM   
starshineowned


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quote:

This isn't even a hypothetical possibility, as there is simply no viable migration path from what we have to something arbitrarily designed improvement that doesn't involve a substantial loss of life and shitloads of people scramming to get ther crap sorted, or takes a very long time and a lot of people going contrary to their nature. Incrementally improving things is another matter, but that's hardly what you were looking for here, is it?


Greetings Master Aswad

Norman did not pull everything out of his head. Reference was there. I agree that unless a almost world wide calamity came that reversion back to previous eras would be a gradual and from Normans time and what he saw and was prompted to embark on..one would gather it has not even remotely gone in the direction he proposed.

I suppose what I was looking for were idea's about the best or worse of both worlds as I can't see everyone agreeing that Normans world would truly be ideal in all aspects, and I know our reality isn't. It wasn't a interest in creating a fantasy world that can not exist but more I guess a look at what things from both could or would best foster the philosophy itself?

Sorry it is in my head and came about from the mentions from time to time as persons thoughts on what Norman was trying to show (positive/negative) about societies.

starshine


_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/27/2009 10:26:08 PM   
Aswad


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Kim:

Thanks.

starshineowned:

Creating an idea of how a world might work, at any meaningful level of detail, whether from those parts or not, is a challenge you don't undertake unless you have an idea for a novel. And it is certainly something that takes up more space than what you can fit in a forum post. The problem being that without a whole into which the parts fit, they are just a loose tangle of ideas and preferences, about which endless pages of theorizing might be done with nothing coming out of it. Also, notably, some of us (e.g. me) would not want to base an idea of how a world might work on assembling bits and pieces from Lange's patchwork together with the patchwork of the real world. This, incidentally, holds at significantly smaller scales, as well.

The very definition of a vacuum sort of precludes operating in one...

A culture, a society, a language, a morality... these are things that evolve, they don't get engineered and then stay as the engineer intended. The closest antecedents to such a process in history would probably be when visionary conquerors have imposed a specific world order on everything they could get their hands on, the most recent of the examples being Hitler, prior to his mental deterioration, although it might be more apt to say that it was a joint vision between Hitler and Speer, as the former admitted that he lacked what it would take to flesh out and implement the vision once rebuilding started, and the latter was assigned that task. Presumably, few here would particularly approve of his vision, seeing as individual freedom was one of the most neglected points of that philosophy. Yet another instance of someone not getting it right, due to the obsession with a notion of good that flows from opposition to something else, like Lange, or Rand.

Think carefully about what you're really wondering about, then try to answer it for yourself before asking others.

It's going to take others at least as long to formulate their own answers.

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 12/27/2009 10:28:34 PM >


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to starshineowned)
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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/27/2009 10:27:24 PM   
Aswad


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--accidentally quote-replied instead of editing--


< Message edited by Aswad -- 12/27/2009 10:29:01 PM >


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/28/2009 4:28:43 AM   
Kimveri


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Morning,

I think the line that ends the "Bloody Giants" passage sorta sums it up;

quote:

"I would not be other than I am, and I would not be other than where I am." Beasts pg33
{emphasis mine}

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/28/2009 12:58:26 PM   
Musicmystery


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Hi starshineowned,

I don't think it's a matter of mixing, taking some of an ideal world and some of this world. Rather than an ideal world--for Gor as far from ideal--it's a world where principles and ideas can be worked out in ways not possible, or at least not practically possible, on Earth.

How do we blend any principles into our daily lives? They are like compasses, pointing out direction, as we set our course, altering and correcting it as necessary.

Not exactly what you asked, I know. I hope that helps.

Live well,

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/28/2009 2:03:08 PM   
starshineowned


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From: Texas
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Greetings..

In ways it does Master Musicmystery but I fear my simple questioning probe fell quite short of where my mind wandered, and trying to ask others to read my mind isn't going to happen.

My apologies to the Free for wasting your time, and I will take your advice Master Aswad and try to figure these things out for myself beforehand.

starshine


_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/28/2009 2:10:05 PM   
Musicmystery


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No worries, starshine.

These things happen, and it's all in good faith.

With some clarification, all will be fine!

Live well,

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/28/2009 8:15:57 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

I think the line that ends the "Bloody Giants" passage sorta sums it up;

"I would not be other than I am, and I would not be other than where I am."


In looking at various uses, and meanings, of the copula in various languages, a rule of thumb I formulated for Latin was this:

"A man may choose where to stand (stare), but not where to be (esse)."

The implication didn't hit me until I wrote it out.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Kimveri)
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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/28/2009 8:18:27 PM   
Aswad


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What Tim said, starshine.

I was simply trying to help you arrive at a better answer. I do appreciate the line of questioning.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/28/2009 9:22:50 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

I think the line that ends the "Bloody Giants" passage sorta sums it up;

"I would not be other than I am, and I would not be other than where I am."


In looking at various uses, and meanings, of the copula in various languages, a rule of thumb I formulated for Latin was this:

"A man may choose where to stand (stare), but not where to be (esse)."

The implication didn't hit me until I wrote it out.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Hi Aswad,

When I'm in a situation where I'm starting to lose perspective, I remind myself to live in the moment as if I had deliberately chosen each and every detail. It's my way of getting out of my racing mind and dealing effectively with the reality in front of me. From that vantage, I can again make purposeful decisions and take effective actions, rather than reacting to circumstance.

Live well,

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/28/2009 11:45:01 PM   
Aswad


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That's not really what I was getting at, Tim.

I do see your point, though I would argue that it's mostly a bit of mental judo to reframe things. We don't need to stack the deck to decide how to play a hand. As for reacting, that's a bit of semantics I am not lucid enough to get into now, but you know as well as I do that the distinction is not quite as simple as that.

What I was originally getting at, were a series of small, generally obvious points that should nonetheless be voiced at times. The realization was that they are encapsulated in a neat statement that was written as a simple rule of thumb as to a difference that has been conserved in many branches of indoeuropean languages, though not in English. That it's a reasonable way to voice those points (though sadly English loses a lot of them, as with many meaningful, terse statements from other languages).

The "voiced at times" part was effected by posting it as an apropos.

Health,
al-Aswad.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 12/28/2009 11:49:20 PM >


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/29/2009 7:52:20 AM   
Musicmystery


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Hi Aswad,

Going back, I see the point. Thanks for clarifying.

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/29/2009 9:59:16 AM   
Aswad


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You're cordially welcome, Tim.

And I could have been clearer in the first place.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/29/2009 10:01:55 AM   
mnottertail


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al-Aswad....

forgive my foray into etymology and the surrounding environs, but could one ever be uncordially welcome?

I assume you meant in tone verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry welcome....

Hvordan har du det, al-Aswad?

Glaedelig Julhilsen.

Ron

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/29/2009 8:17:30 PM   
Aswad


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Quite so, yes. And a gledelig jul to you, too. Jeg har det tålelig bra.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/29/2009 11:09:54 PM   
solia


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Any answer would be a subjective answer ~ unless you were looking for a majority agreement with the choices you've already made.

In this society or in Norman's, not every thing is agreeable or useful for every single person.  It is a majority decision and application.  The rest compromise.

Solia

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RE: Gor meets Earth - 12/31/2009 2:38:28 PM   
domiguy


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As the Earthly ambassador to Gor. We are currently studying every aspect of your community, it's structure as well as it's innerworkings, to see what could be brought back to my homeworld and implemented to improve upon ourselves.

What kind of health care system you got in place here?

_____________________________



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