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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequences and other elements of modern manhood...


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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 2:51:13 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

So then, let's say a woman lives with a man who smokes and drinks. She has a baby who sleeps in a crib upstairs. One night the man gets drunk, falls asleep on the couch downstairs while smoking and starts the house afire. The woman wakes in her room to the fire alarm and thick smoke. Is it then the woman's fault, if the baby perishes in the flames? She did, after all, know the man could set the house afire while smoking and drinking. Does she have a legal obligation to rush through the smoke and flames to rescue the baby?


In most nations she do not have a legal obligation to save the baby. But I think she have a moral obligation to do so.

quote:

How many women live with batterers? So far the batterer has only beaten them and never when the child was watching. But don't statistics suggest the batterer will eventually abuse the child? Should the woman be charged with child endangerment because she chooses to stay and try to work out the problem?


What should be legal, I do not know. However I think it is morally wrong for a woman or a man who is responsible for a small child to stay with a violent partner. They have not just them self to think about, but a child in their care. When you choose to take on the responsibility for another person, you take on certain obligations, like for example you can not stay and work it out and put the child in danger. Whatever it should be against the law. I leave that to the politicians, but it is in my min morally wrong.

quote:

Every law enforcement officer is in a situation where they may someday offend some very dangerous people. Every person who testifies against the local meth cooker or some violent criminal is in danger of revenge. Should none of those afore mentioned people be allowed to have children? Does anyone else see a slippery slope there?


The question here is more. If such a law enforcement officer have a child, and someone with a grudge come for him. Is it then right to run and hide and leave the child with the criminal in the hope that the criminal is single minded or have honor enough to go after him and not his family? Is it ok for a man to leave a child to possibly pay the price for his actions?

quote:

If the man wants to make fun of Mohammed, or any other sacred cow, I believe he should have right without fear of being attacked by a lunatic.


Off course pepole should be able to express them self as they wish and not have lunatics after them. The question is since the world is what it is, should he have the right to flee and leave a child in danger, a child he was responsible for? Is that how a modern man should act? Or do a man have the responsibility to protect his family, even if the attack never should have taken place?

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to purelea2003)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 3:39:57 AM   
Rule


Posts: 7806
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		FR:

I know a hero. A handsome man he was, small but handsome. Then the curtains in his home caught fire. Within seconds the entire room burned. He ran outside, fine as a fiddle. Then he realised that his wife and two children were still inside. Quite understandably and heroically, he ran back into the burning house. Good for him? No. He got out again, but with third degree burns over eighty per cent of his body - without his wife and two children, who died in the fire. That he recovered from his burns was a miracle - everybody in the burn wounds hospital knows him. He has one surviving son, who was not at home at the time, but his daughter in law does not like hime and so he never sees his son and grandchildren.

A hero, yes - for other reasons too. But there are some rules even hero's ought to adhere to and one of them is: never enter a burning house.

< Message edited by Rule -- 1/6/2010 3:40:56 AM >

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 3:55:03 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

Then I hope that if I am ever trapped in a burning house there is someone there who do not adhere to your aught tos. And if someone I care about is trapped in a burring building I hope I will have the guts to ignore your aught tos as well.

There is a danger in being a hero, no one have ever denied that, and it do not always work out. Do that mean no one should ever be a hero?

I wish you well

< Message edited by nephandi -- 1/6/2010 3:59:23 AM >

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 5:34:23 AM   
Nephilim


Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		Jeffff, the problem isn't that what he said couldn't be true.  The problem is that there is no evidence that it is true, but implying it is true can lead others to believe it.  This is a real person, who, where I am from is innocent until proven guilty.  Not only that, this is a person who has risked his life to expose a situation that affects all of us.  With the way the articles are written, it is withing the realm of possibility that the guy wrote to this nutjob and told him how to get in and had him promise to kill his granddaughter.  It is also possible that the Somali is actually from a planet orbiting the sun in the same path as us but  on the direct other side so that we never see it.  Should we trumpet those theories as well?  If you want to make up a story where a guy throws his grandkid in the way of an ax wielding psycho and use it as an example of how men are not "real men", then just make a fictional story.  Don't make things up about an actual person. 

Now, does it only matter that the kid was left alone with the psycho?  I would say not.  In my example it was perfectly reasonable to do that and perfectly safe.  Also, was this bathroom where he was hiding off of the living room?  How far away was the kid?  Was the attacker fixated on the cartoonist?  Those are important factors in judging what he did.  Was the cartoonist correct that the attacker would have killed him and not his daughter.  Well, we know he was correct about the daughter part.  No matter how much you dislike the kid's geography, his strategy worked exactly as planned. 

What is the point of casting doubt on this person?  I can think of two reasons.  One; it is much easier to tear something down than build it up.  Many people in our society prefer to criticize and poke holes in others in order to make the fact that they do nothing a bit more bearable.  The other is to draw sympathy for radical Muslims.  To promote the idea that the west brings terrorism on itself, and if we weren't such bad people, it wouldn't happen.  To point to an event and say "see, look that guy who is being persecuted has no honor and so his cause is invalid".  That is an ad hominem attack. 

Just a pointer, unless you like the lifestyle of living under sharia (which most of us would not), don't try to side with Islamic Radicals.  Radical Muslims are not ok with your freedom, and would rather see you dead than prosperous on your own terms with your own religion and ideals.  This comes from their own mouths, spend some time reading the literature, then decide if you want to defend them.  I'm willing to bet you would no more side with them than you would with the KKK.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 6:46:40 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12597
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Where did I imply I supported radicals? This has nothing to do with  the specific circumstances of the event.

Once again, if someone crashed into your home, would you react the same way?

His action put people other than himself in danger. He was not prepared to the result. He acted without thinking. He acted as a coward.

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to Nephilim)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 7:32:57 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6619
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online 		-sigh-

The thread is getting derailed into everything it is not about.

It's not about law. It's not about how insulting people runs a risk of getting a boot to the head. It's not about how, if it were a flag, and not an icon of greater importance, there would be stiff penalties. It's not about how, if he lived some miles west, it would have been punishable by death to depict the national figurehead of that island in the same manner up until they abolished capital punishment. It's not about whether there are groups in the world that are inclined to act violently for whatever reason, and by whatever banner they ride under, truly or falsely. It's not about what his legal obligations may or may not have been. It's not about what his cat ate for breakfast. And it's certainly not about football hooligans being a greater threat to him than the combined anger of some arbitrary number of people whose beliefs and values he mocked on a theory of violent repercussions. Though, statistically, football hooligans are a greater concern than any threat of fundamentalist violence.

Nephilim, from what this man has admitted to, the term his ancestors would use is niding. The term denotes one who has, through cowardice, betrayal or other ill deeds, earned general¹ contempt. It would also be applied to excessive brutality against those who arguably are defenseless, e.g. children, small animals, etc. The attendant legal status back in the day, was that of outlaw.

Yes, he said it was emotionally difficult to abandon the girl. Points for being compelled to do the right thing. Yes, he said the cops advised him that it would be a good gamble. Points for being mindful of the lawmen. But, to the point, he also said he did this thing. Dock the points on account of disciplining himself into cowardice. There is the admission of the act. It is hardly even a topic for debate up here, since everyone's all hung up on Islam, like you are... nice to see a world war can occur without a single non-obvious lesson being learned or passed on by the survivors.

Guess I'll have to cook up some hypotheticals instead...

... can't let that rubber get too close to the road.

Health,
al-Aswad.

¹ Allmenn, allgemein,... (allgemein veracht?)... anyone have a good cognate?


< Message edited by Aswad -- 1/6/2010 7:40:45 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 7:41:42 AM   
Nephilim


Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		Attempting to spin a situation that was created to illustrate the point about radical Islam by making libelous statements about the cartoonist is a way to excuse their behavior and shows a mindset on your part.  Nowhere in the articles did it say that he endangered his grandchild, and the grandchild did not come to harm, but some present the "what if, what if" arguments to cast doubt on the man's character instead of focusing on the real point.  A large group of people are willing to kill for perceived offenses published in a paper.  Why not focus on the central point?  The one that actually affects all of us, instead of taking time to speculate if something "cowardly" could have happened.  There is nothing cowardly about standing on principle and becoming the target of murderers we do know that this man did that.

Would I react the same way?  Difficult to say since I don't have complete information.

Lets say this is the floorplan of the house:
____________    ______________
|                        entry                       |
|    living room            <me kitchen   |
|<sofa with kid          |                      |
|________   ___|      |___________|   
|                         |      |bathroom       |
|  bedroom         |      |___________|
|                         |      |bedroom        |
|___________________________|        cops outside


Badguy breaks in
____________    ______________
|                        Xentry                    |
|    living room            <me kitchen   |
|<sofa with kid          |                      |
|________   ___|      |___________|   
|                         |      |bathroom       |
|  bedroom         |      |___________|
|                         |      |bedroom        |
|___________________________|        cops outside

Badguy comes after me
____________    ______________
|                        entry X                   |
|    living room            <me kitchen   |
|<sofa with kid          |                      |
|________   ___|      |___________|   
|                         |      |bathroom       |
|  bedroom         |      |___________|
|                         |      |bedroom        |
|___________________________|        cops outside

I get behind bathroom door while badguy shouts "revenge", "blood", death to the infidels, whatever and tries to chop door with ax
____________    ______________
|                        entry                      |
|    living room                    kitchen   |
|<sofa with kid          |                      |
|________   ___|      |___________|   
|                         |    X|<bathroom     |
|  bedroom         |      |___________|
|                         |      |bedroom        |
|___________________________|        cops outside

after 120 seconds cops show up and remove bad guy
____________   cops _________
|                        entry                     |
|    living room                    kitchen   |
|<sofa with kid          |                      |
|________   ___|      |___________|   
|                         |    X|<bathroom     |
|  bedroom         |      |___________|
|                         |      |bedroom        |
|___________________________|         outside


Now, if the attacker was focused on me, moving toward the child would have only increased her chances of getting hurt since he is fixated and following me.  If the pounding stopped would I make sure the guy wasn't killing the kid, sure, would I re-evaluate at that point and fight for their life? maybe, but it doesn't enter into this scenario.  Is this the Most courageous thing to do? Maybe not, but in the real world, one doesn't have to face down every knife wielding psycho.  Is that what happened? I have no idea, and neither do you.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 7:48:40 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12597
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		One more point and then I will hop out of this. the attacker had an axe, not a gun, not a knife but an axe.

Where you can buy an axe, you can buy an axe handle. A fine defensive weapon.

He placed another in danger without regard for the consequences.

I stand by my opinion

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to Nephilim)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 7:56:18 AM   
Nephilim


Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		The final analysis is that, he had a plan that he and authorities worked on, and he executed it, and because of that he and his grandchild are ok.  You can have problems with that if you like and go on about what You think honor is, but I think it is a bit warped when someone does something completely reasonable and something that they were advised to do and they you think he is a coward for it.  Perhaps you should have been there to tell him the only way to not be a coward was to defeat his attacker in hand to hand combat.

Not a big distinction but reports say knife and ax.  lol, I do find it amusing though that in your world you would have political figures fighting off crazed assassins with ax handles.  Again, points for using action movie logic.


< Message edited by Nephilim -- 1/6/2010 7:58:46 AM >

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 8:01:39 AM   
Nephilim


Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		I am still waiting for the responses of what You would have done.  Was it to never have company, or death match?

(in reply to Nephilim)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 8:14:03 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12597
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		What would I have done?...at the very least I would have removed her from my place.

At worst I would have attacked my attacker and dome my best to beat the motherfucker to
the floor.


Jeff

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to Nephilim)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 8:31:48 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..

Aside from the real facts that the news facts are still completely contradicting as to what this guy did with the grandchild...taking this one side of the news equation:

Did anywhere it state that the ax wielder could even see the living room from his point of entry?

Could it be that from where the ax guy was entering that his only visible target was the intended target to begin with, and this guy drew him away from the living room area to ensure his attention and focus remained on him, and not go wandering about the house and discover the child?

Does the fact that this guy is like in his 70's make any difference to the younger persons here as to what they think they would of done at that age or even physically capable of doing?

Does a person really need to go into exile the remainder of their life from family/friends and life as they know it because they chose to bring something to light that they felt was important for others to see and think about?

starshine

< Message edited by starshineowned -- 1/6/2010 8:32:15 AM >

_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 8:40:59 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 26040
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings to the Free

just a thought. If he had not gotten to the safe room and notified authorities, instead staying and facing the attacker, what would have happened to the little girl when he was killed?

well wishes

tazzy

_____________________________

No body dies a virgin... life fucks everyone.

RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11

"There are no atheists getting blowjobs" ~Master Ron

+20 Heresy Points - Hard earned!

Duchess of Dissent 1

(in reply to starshineowned)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 9:00:00 AM   
Nephilim


Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		Jeffff, wouldn't you also agree that had you went to remove the girl (to carry her to the safe room I assume) being a slow old guy that the attacker would have attacked you and you would not have gotten to her?  Had you gotten to her you would be an old man with a child in your arms for him to attack.  Would that be more courageous?  If you decided to take your other option and fight him with an ax handle, what do you think the chances would have been of your survival, being old and slow against a young crazy nutjob that took police two gunshots to bring down?  And as tazzygirl mentions, while you were fighting this attacker, who would have pushed the panic button to have the police come and clear away your corpse?

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 10:57:15 AM   
Rule


Posts: 7806
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
from what this man has admitted to, the term his ancestors would use is niding. The term denotes one who has, through cowardice, betrayal or other ill deeds, earned general¹ contempt. It would also be applied to excessive brutality against those who arguably are defenseless, e.g. children, small animals, etc. The attendant legal status back in the day, was that of outlaw.

As an aside: I wonder if 'niding' is etymologically related to the Dutch 'mijden' (= to shun; a related word is 'vermijden' = to avoid).

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 4:43:09 PM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 368
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

One more point and then I will hop out of this. the attacker had an axe, not a gun, not a knife but an axe.

Where you can buy an axe, you can buy an axe handle. A fine defensive weapon.

He placed another in danger without regard for the consequences.

I stand by my opinion



So...you are suggesting he should have asked the axe wielding maniac to wait while he ran out to the local hardware store and purchased an axe handle with which to fight said maniac?  Should he have brewed up and offered the fellow some coffee and, perhaps, a slice of cake while he waited??

John, AKA Dinnardin

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 4:45:37 PM   
Level


Posts: 22536
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

Greetings..

This is really hard to say what happened because I've seen like 3 different versions of the same episode. The man left his grandchild on the couch because the police told him to as the attacker would not go after her..just him. The man left his grandchild on the couch and fled to safety for himself. The man fled to a safe area with his grandchild.

So I guess it really boils down to what news article you choose to believe as factual.

starshine



FR:

If he left the child and the nut in the same room, while he hid in another room, shame on the coward.

If he died, in order to try to ensure the child's safety, so be it. We all gotta die; at least do it with some backbone.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to starshineowned)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 5:05:31 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..

I have no issue making a decision based on the best possible information available. That is not the case here. It is nothing more than picking one version of information provided via media sources and damning a persons character as if it were factual...but have at it.

starshine


_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 5:19:09 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Tal,
Let me tell a story that might shed some light on a similar event.  recently I was just chillin' at my crib stone with me kajira when a ferocious and crazed mamba managed to wander into my place.

I was absolutely scared to death.  I ran and jumped out
of a second story window leaving the mamba and kajira far behind.  

I figured it would be safe to return long after the mamba was done feeding.  

Folks, you gotta choose your battles. Let's face facts, Kids and kajiras are a dime a fuckin' dozen.  Ambassadors not so much.

Ja,

The Great Earthly Ambassador to Gor Lord Domiguy.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 5:19:22 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12597
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinnardin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

One more point and then I will hop out of this. the attacker had an axe, not a gun, not a knife but an axe.

Where you can buy an axe, you can buy an axe handle. A fine defensive weapon.

He placed another in danger without regard for the consequences.

I stand by my opinion



So...you are suggesting he should have asked the axe wielding maniac to wait while he ran out to the local hardware store and purchased an axe handle with which to fight said maniac?  Should he have brewed up and offered the fellow some coffee and, perhaps, a slice of cake while he waited??

John, AKA Dinnardin

[/quote


What is wrong with you people? Does everyone go through life unprepared?

I would have moved the child to another place, a friend or relative as soon as I was informed there was a real threat against me. I did not suggest picking her up and running.

By the same token I would have already had an axe handle or in my case , as an American, a baseball bat handy. As a matter of fact I have one now.

I am 6 ft tall I weigh. 165 lbs, after a good meal. I do not physically intimidate anyone. I grew up and still live in Chicago. The Three things that have so far kept me from being prey are, awareness of my surroundings, carrying myself with confidence and the willingness to meet aggression with aggression.

For the last time, really, the circumstances do not matter. Bu his actions he invited the threat of violence into his world. He was not prepared for that and an innocent could have been harmed.

I stand by my opinions, you are welcome to stand by yours.

Jeff

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 1/6/2010 5:20:34 PM >

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to Dinnardin)
Profile   Post #: 40
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