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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequences and other elements of modern manhood...


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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 5:21:42 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12597
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I fucked up the quote thing, but I 'm not fixin; it.....lol


Jeff

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"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 5:36:38 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
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~FR~
I'll quote someone I much admire to illustrate my stance:

quote:

"All societies are based on rules to protect pregnant women and young children. All else is surplusage, excrescence, adornment, luxury, or folly, which can—and must—be dumped in emergency to preserve this prime function. As racial survival is the only universal morality, no other basis is possible. Attempts to formulate a "perfect society" on any foundation other than "Women and children first!" is not only witless, it is automatically genocidal."~Laz Long "Notebooks of Lazarus Long"~Heinlein


Lemme see if I can break my view of this down more simply:

I do something that makes me a target of violence, for reasons I believe are valid. To accept responsibility for my choice, I take action(s) to minimize the threat of violence & the scope of it should avoiding the threat be unsuccessful - I ARM myself, notify authorities, maximize safety within my personal domain &....{pay attention, people}...I act to minimize fall-out of that violence on my loved ones, particularly those dependent upon me.

I acted, accepting the risks, & then took what measures necessary to minimize that risk to those relying on me. This is called "taking responsibility" & it's actually something quite familiar to Goreans.

Those who have difficulty with this concept have some introspection ahead, I daresay.

~Kimveri

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"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 5:39:32 PM   
Level


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Well said, Kimveri.

Using what limited information we have, I can see NO explanation for him doing what he did.


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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 5:48:08 PM   
Jeffff


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Sure, I go on and on, she says the same thing in one pity post and you are all "well said Kimveri"

What a suckup!


Jeffwey

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 5:50:18 PM   
Level


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That's what you get for not sharing your pot roast!

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 5:56:22 PM   
DarlingSavage


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Everyone is always supposed to stick together whenever an axe wielding maniac is in the vicinity. Everyone knows that the moment you split up, people start getting picked off, it always happens that way in the horror movies. The guy shouldn't have left the kid alone. But I'm surprised that there's an argument over here on this point.

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 10:13:40 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings

The news are not contradicting, not in Scandinavia where we read the untranslated version of things and interviews with the man involved. News then to be a bit more unstable when translated often several times. But here in Norway all the newspapers and such come with the same story, including interviews.

Now the child was in one room, she had a wounded leg so she could not run. The attacker got into the house and attacked the grandfather. The man choose to run to his safe room instead of going to get the little girl as the police had said that if someone attacked him they would probably go after him alone. The man contacted the police and they came after three minutes. The girl was not harmed and her only gripe was being upset because it was not allowed to break glass in the house so why would the attacker be allowed to.

The problem with this is that the police is not allowed to give advice which will put anyone in danger, so yes it was more likely than not that the attacker would go after the grandfather single minded, but there was always a very real chance he would go after the girl.

quote:

Does a person really need to go into exile the remainder of their life from family/friends and life as they know it because they chose to bring something to light that they felt was important for others to see and think about?


Would you if you was so in danger from attack that you needed to have a safe room in your house and all but police guard have a child over when you where the only adult who could protect it? Sometimes doing what is right according to ones own morality come with a price.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to starshineowned)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 10:16:12 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline
Greetings

quote:

just a thought. If he had not gotten to the safe room and notified authorities, instead staying and facing the attacker, what would have happened to the little girl when he was killed?


If the attacker wished to harm the girl, which scenario do you think would give her the best possible chance, her grandfather defending her or her alone against a grown man with an axe?

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/6/2010 10:37:27 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings

When I was a young girl I had a friend from Bosnia. We both liked to play computer games. One day we where going home to my place to play. We where riding our bikes. We had to go by a rather heavy traffic (for a small town of ca 4500 inhabitants) to get there. My friend insisted that I should go furthest from the cars. I was two or three years younger and he felt that when he had accepted the responsibility of accompanying a younger person, who was a girl to her home, then he had to make sure that I got there safely, and that if there was an accident the car would hit him not me.

Now that we are adults the logic is a bit flawed, he could not protect me from a car with his body, but he would try as a child of 15 or so, because he accepted responsibility for my safety and was willing to die for his responsibility.

When my mother left my father I was only a babe. My father said he would kill my mother and me. Mother fled with me to my grandparents house where my grandfather armed himself and stood ready to fight of the much younger man if he had to to protect his wife, his daughter and his grand daughter. During the war my grandfather was a resistance fighter, and  he and grandmother did not start a family back then, they waited as he knew that if he was caught, it would affect his family. I am however quite sure that if  the Nazi had come for him, he would have fight to the death to defend my grandmother.

It is not about whatever or not it is right to make insults towards Islam, it is about accepting responsibility for another person and then living up to that responsibility, when when it might cost a person his life. A got tread on this forum concerned the Titanic. Well when you read eye witness accounts of that event, most of the men tried to get their wives and mothers and sisters and daughters and other women in their traveling party onto the boats and then they stepped back, knowing full well it most likely would cost them their lives, but for them saving those they where responsible for where more important than saving their own lives.

The question is, have we in the West lost that, lost the will to accept responsibility and pay with our blood to uphold it, or are such bravery a thing of the past when a man who leaves a five year old, defenseless girl alone with a attacker with an ax on the hope that the police is right and the attacker would go just after him and not his family, when a man that leaves a five year old girl with hope and wishes and run to save his own hide are saluted as a hero. That is the question.

I wish you all well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/7/2010 7:33:49 AM   
Nephilim


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No, we in the west have not stopped protecting our own on a day to day sense but we do have a past time of attempting to tear down public figures and loathing our own society.  We actually complain when a situation turned out for the best rather than an old man being killed by a religious radical.  We go to huge lengths to believe anything negative that we hear or could suspect about public figures.  We have water cooler talk like "do you think Jamie Lee Curtis is attractive? you know she was born with a penis right?".  We make movies that link the leaders of our nations (with extremely loose logic) to terrorism.  Many people would rather believe major terrorism is planned and executed by huge conspiracies by our own governments rather than what the facts, the experts, the evidence, and the people who were there will tell you.  When someone is attacked by a madman, we wonder if he deserved it and look to find if there is anything he did wrong.  If someone is a serial killer, we wonder what his family life was like so that we can excuse his actions.  If people want everyone in the west dead, converted, or in slavery, we point to how we have dealt with the middle east in the past and how it is really our own fault. 

We think that government can reduce the cost of healthcare without reducing wages, level of care, while increasing the numbers of people covered.  In fact we prefer to think of it as "free healthcare" if possible.  That in some way it is "provided" by government.  I think all of these thought patterns are encouraged by the higher castes. It is the first knowledge, the one that keeps the peasants in their place.  Peasants should only follow the state or organization sanctioned heroes like Barak Obama, Martin Luther King Jr., We certainly can't be trusted to have our own heroes.  I don't know the various european equivalents.

I was thinking, Galileo wasn't a "real man" when he recanted his belief that the Earth revolved around the sun, just to save his own life, he was a coward.  Tarl Cabot also was not a "real man" , he chose life over honor as well.  He was also an illustration of a coward.  Many of the founding fathers of the US didn't believe in slavery, but they didn't write it into the constitution, they must have been cowards as well.  They could have fought for it.  I am willing to bet, any figure you name could be classified as a coward by your standards.  That means that heroes and positive examples simply don't exist for you.  That is a sad thing.



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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/7/2010 7:51:16 AM   
LillyoftheVally


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FR

Ignoring the fact that the story may or may not be true and simply answering what was said to be true in the OP, based therefore on the ideas that the story rose rather than the incident itself.

I would say that future actions do not always mitigate previous ones. That meaning if someone does something heroic one day it is not wiped out by a non heroic action the next, in a moment of panic who knows how we would react.

I am leaving alone the notion of manliness, I would hope that if there was a vulnerable person in danger that I could help then I would, I hope that I would not be so self serving as to run away if there was a way I could make sure others were safe too, however I have never been in such a situation. I do not know how I would react, and I don't think my reaction would say anything about my gender at all, more about myself as a person in an extreme situation. I find it is very to theorize about a situation I have never been in.

I wonder, how many people on here have had a real life experience in which they had to put their life aside for the sake of another, I wonder how people who have been in that situation did respond. Hell I know people who won't tell teenagers off for fear that they may possibly have a knife, hardly the same level of danger there.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgsh7u7upeA&annotation_id=annotation_282296&feature=iv

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/7/2010 7:58:19 AM   
LordShadow


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Just my opinion...but he should not have left the child...had it been me the child would have ben sent to the bathroom an lock the door...then i would have shot the bastard as he came through the front door...

As far as doing the cartoon knowing someone may come after him, and taking in a child...*snorts*...if law or morality like that existed very few people would be allowed to reproduce...which for soe mightnot be all bad...*chuckles*

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Shadow

True beauty is not seen with the eyes but rather felt in the heart...

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/7/2010 10:15:50 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline
Greetings

quote:

No, we in the west have not stopped protecting our own on a day to day sense but we do have a past time of attempting to tear down public figures and loathing our own society.  We actually complain when a situation turned out for the best rather than an old man being killed by a religious radical.


By this logic pepole should jump out of air planes. After all there have been those who was lucky as hell and did not get hurt. So being a coward is ok if one is lucky and no one get hurt. I tend to think it is the choice and will behind an act that carries most of it's merit or demerit, that the outcome.

quote:

When someone is attacked by a madman, we wonder if he deserved it and look to find if there is anything he did wrong.


No one deserve to be attacked with an ax. That is not the point. The point is that this man left a five year old child to fend for herself against an armed madman. That is what this tread is about, and the point you constantly miss. It is not about Muslims, it is not about the freedom of press, it is not about the media, it is about leaving an defenseless child alone with a man intent on murder.

But since you seam incapable of grasping the point of this tread, let me make a fictional situation for you instead. A man insults another man. Five weeks later the insulted one storms through the first man's door with an ax. The first man run and hides in a safe room he have constructed because he so fear the man he insulted and leaver his five year old daughter in the living room to fend for herself, a child who even have a broken leg so she can not run away. Is that an acceptable way for a man to act?

quote:

We think that government can reduce the cost of healthcare without reducing wages, level of care, while increasing the numbers of people covered.  In fact we prefer to think of it as "free healthcare" if possible.  That in some way it is "provided" by government.


What exactly do health care have to do with this debate?

quote:

I was thinking, Galileo wasn't a "real man" when he recanted his belief that the Earth revolved around the sun, just to save his own life, he was a coward.  Tarl Cabot also was not a "real man" , he chose life over honor as well.  He was also an illustration of a coward.  Many of the founding fathers of the US didn't believe in slavery, but they didn't write it into the constitution, they must have been cowards as well.  They could have fought for it.  I am willing to bet, any figure you name could be classified as a coward by your standards.  That means that heroes and positive examples simply don't exist for you.  That is a sad thing.


Everyone makes mistakes. And I can think of plenty of heroes. However men that run and hide and leave children to their fate is not my idea of heroes no, and I do not think that is a sad thing. For that matter bitter old men who insults others religions and then are to much of a coward to protect his family from the consequences is not much of a hero either to me, and I am not so broken up over that either. People whoever who stand up for what they believe and face the fire if they need to and protect their women and children, that however are heroes to me. And what I find sad is that you do not believe such men exist.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to Nephilim)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/7/2010 4:21:40 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6619
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nephilim

I am still waiting for the responses of what You would have done.  Was it to never have company, or death match?


Death match, unless you can get the kid out.

Incidentally, the panic button is portable and radio based. You push it when the threat occurs, and if the police get the call, and bother, they come check things out when they have the time. In this case, it took a few minutes. In various other cases, half an hour has been noted as reasonable. In the cases where they never arrive, they've generally taken the time to apologize to the next of kin for not showing up. But it is portable.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/7/2010 4:25:50 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6619
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quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

I have no issue making a decision based on the best possible information available. That is not the case here. It is nothing more than picking one version of information provided via media sources and damning a persons character as if it were factual...but have at it.


Two of the sources could match what he said in an interview: that he left the child behind.

A conditional answer, such as Level gave, seems like a good solution.

Not that it's all that important anymore.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to starshineowned)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/7/2010 4:29:03 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6619
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinnardin

So...you are suggesting he should have asked the axe wielding maniac to wait while he ran out to the local hardware store and purchased an axe handle with which to fight said maniac?  Should he have brewed up and offered the fellow some coffee and, perhaps, a slice of cake while he waited??


In the course of setting up a safe room, he could have found time to pick up a baseball bat or axe handle to go with his lunch break or something. We're talking a gap of months here, after all. It's been ages since he first decided he was at risk, whereas the attack is recent. Some might even think it's a good idea to have an improviseable weapon handy in case of burglary or the like, seeing as firearms are more or less illegal around these parts.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Dinnardin)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/7/2010 4:46:07 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6619
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Sure, I go on and on, she says the same thing in one pity post and you are all "well said Kimveri"


Hey, I did say "Jeff gets it" or something to that effect.

Course, Kim did say it well, too.

What strikes me is that one "side" is most concerned with circumstances, what-ifs, and so forth, while the other has an instinctive reaction which is shared by most of the people I know offline to be the people I would have at my side if I needed to know that my ass was covered. I've a long history of playing devil's advocate, and prefer to look for various alternate explanations when something seems messed up, but in this case, it does pare down to "why isn't there public debate about abandoning a kid with an axe wielding fellow, rather than about the purported horrors of radicals?" for me.

The sentiment expressed against radicals also strikes me as a bit misplaced.

I have had some civilized conversations with radicals in the past.

Football fanatics? Those, I steer clear of, if I can.

They define "violent radical" for me.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/7/2010 5:01:27 PM   
Jeffff


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I was pondering the same thought through all this. There are those that would have my back and those that would not.

I don't spend a whole lot of time in this group. I am not Gorean. I have to say though that given the little I know of
some of the beliefs held in these parts, I was surprised by some of the answers.

Life is funny ain't it...:)

Jeff

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/7/2010 5:56:31 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2104
Joined: 5/13/2006
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Fast Reply

I don't have much of an opinion as to whether this guy was a coward or not- he says he was doing it to draw the attacker away, like the police told him to; since my ability to read his mind is temporarily out of order, and I wasn't in the room watching, I really can't tell if he is telling the truth or lying to cover his cowardice. So I have avoided commenting.

But I read this., which I think is very appropriate- it is an interview with Christopher Hitchens, where he points out the absurdity of blaming the victim, in assuming that offending Muslism is so out of bounds, that "he should have known" and thereby should take responsibility for the attack.

I disagree with Hitchens as often as I agree with him, but this is one where I think he gets it right.

(in reply to Jeffff)
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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/7/2010 7:08:24 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline
Greetings

I have never agreed with the do not blame the victim. Off course going after pepole with an ax because they offended your religion is not ok, it is insane, however leaving that child in the living room was the grandfather's choice, and he can be blamed for that. It is like if I take with me my young nephew and walk into the really bad parts of town at night, I am attacked, I panic and leave the child and run like the Devil was at my heels. Now I can not be blamed because I was attacked, and off course the attacker was at fault and acted in the wrong. I can however be blamed for taking a child with me into a bad area of town at night, and I can be blamed for abandoning the child. Sure the crime should not have happened, the criminal was to blame for the situation. But I would be to blame for placing myself and a child in my care in a position where the crime could happen.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 60
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