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On cowering behind little girls to escape consequences and other elements of modern manhood...


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On cowering behind little girls to escape consequences ... - 1/4/2010 8:55:01 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6618
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Tal,

A certain Danish person, until recently unknown and unimportant to the world outside a small part of Denmark, caused a bit of a stir some time back, at least over here, on account of his charicatures of the prophet Muhammad (ﷺ). This was obviously offensive to some people, and lauded by others. Supposedly, the motive was to support freedom of expression on a theory that the media were being polite out of a fear of violent reprisals, with some attendant rhetoric whose subject and credibility isn't really the topic here.

When one makes a living pissing on the proverbial flag of one of the largest groups around, there is bound to be a bit of fallout, of course. This was apparently expected, as the man built a shelter in which to hide in case of an attack. Seeing as Denmark has gun control, it may be worthwhile to point out that it would be illegal (or tons of paperwork) to have a firearm on hand. In any case, a Somali with an axe eventually did turn up, a mentally disturbed individual at that. And so fear of Islam, rather than a fear of lunatics with axes, is the predictable and widespread response, of course.

Playing with fire isn't supposed to risk burns, after all.

I can't say it gave rise to any fears about any group in my home, nor of lunatics with axes, but it did give rise to another thought or three. See, the more interesting thing is how the attack played out. The man with the axe shows up, and the artist flees to his shelter to hide until the cops arrive. Meanwhile, he has abandoned his 5 year old granddaughter in the room with the mentally unstable, axe wielding attacker. A little girl with a broken leg from an accident gets left, in most regards immobile and defenseless, while this proud defender of freedom of expression¹ turns tail, runs, hides and waits for the police to take minutes to get there.

Could be that I'm old fashioned, but I'm inclined to think the police should've picked up the little girl and locked the two others in the house to sort out their differences. It might not be a crime for men to cower in a shelter when the expected consequences of their actions arrive, or even to leave immobile children in their care with deranged, armed people with a grudge. But perhaps it should be. He knew what he was doing would cause a lot of anger. He probably knew that a few miles due west of his location, it was a capital crime (until recently) to do the same to that country's figureheads. A lot of what he said indicated he even overestimated the risk. Yet, he's comfortable taking responsibility for a little girl at a point in time where he feels the need to have a shelter in case of attack, and equally comfortable dropping that on the floor when the shit hits the fan.

Now, the attacker didn't kill the girl, for whatever reason. Maybe he was more discriminating of who he went for than his intended target was, or maybe he just wasn't in the habit of killing children. How quaint, right? In any case, one man who certainly knew nothing of the reason, and had every reason to assume a different outcome, was the artist charged with her care. It was forwarded in a book that, despite its numerous flaws, I still enjoy, that intent and deed are the same. I would say commitment and deed are the same, being undecided on whether intent suffices. It seems clear, though, that in this case, it was decided by a coward that he should live and his charge be consigned to what to him would be probable death, a decision by which I am inclined to say his guilt is what might have happened, not what did.

The kicker is this... the artist is still lauded as a hero.

How does that come to pass for manhood, let alone heroism?

Upshot: if anyone found the real tomb of Torvald, they'd be a dynamo short of electrocuting all the PKs... [:****]

Health,
al-Aswad.

¹ Sarcasm! Get your sarcasm here! Only $1.99 a can!





_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 6:06:30 AM   
Nephilim


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The problem with responding to news stories is that more often than not, they are factually incorrect or at the very least don't give a full picture of what happened.  I agree that if, as you say, he ran to a shelter and basically threw the child out in front of himself to protect himself, that would be a pretty awful thing to do but considering the motivations, I doubt that is what happened.

A year or two ago there was a case near me where local townspeople took it upon themselves to put up fliers that there was a child rapist in the area.  Someone else murdered this person.  There was a large group of people calling for punishment of the people posting the fliers.  This was based on the idea that the child rapist was a victim.  The news story described his crime as being a slight groping and that he was completely retarded.  They attempted to portray him as basically a victim of circumstance rather than a child rapist to garner sympathy.  It wasn't until I went and read the police report that it was clear that wasn't the case.  The news's reported slight groping was actually that this person habitually lured children into his home and raped them repeatedly in his attic, and was found literally in the act.  Then once he was released he moved near a school where children would walk past his home daily.  Anyway, if you want to malign the artist, do we have copies of the actual reports?  This article http://www.newser.com/story/77327/police-shoot-man-attacking-muhammad-cartoonist.html , says that he and the girl retreated to a bathroom together.  This article says there was 2 minutes between the alarm and the arrival of police http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100102/ap_on_re_eu/eu_denmark_cartoonist .  A possible scenario with that in mind is that man breaks in with knife and ax, artist runs from ax wielding nut-job to safe room while ax-guy pounds at door while girl is in another room.  Perhaps the artist would have opened the door if the banging stopped (the ax-nut went after the girl).  Always very difficult to tell these things from articles.

The fear of radical Islam may or may not be justified in this case.  Was the Somali mentally ill, or just a devout Muslim?  If it had happened in the US, it would have been known after his psych evaluation after arrest.  According to other reports there have been multiple attempts and threats on this man's life that are supported by several radical organizations, this would either suggest that there IS a dangerous radial Islam out there or, if you are an apologist, there are many, many mentally ill individuals who also happen to be Muslim.  Personally, I think radical Islam is a very dangerous thing, as is radical Christianity(and many other religions).  Both have created many terrorists and have a message of hate and murder that is dismissed by the mainstream, but is easily capitalized on by the radical extremists.

One positive thing that comes from misleading articles is that people become polarized with the idea of a cause.  I would just hate to be the person villainized to solidify a bunch of people who basically already agree.


< Message edited by Nephilim -- 1/5/2010 6:25:48 AM >

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 7:03:40 AM   
nephandi


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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings

Basically the child was in the living room and the ax wielding maniac came in and the artist ran. he did not try to sacrifice the child. However as he said in an interview he assumed he would be killed if he went back into the living room to get her, so he choose to hide and hoped that he was the only target and that the police would come quickly. This was from the man's own mouth in an interview. Also while yes news articles is often slanted, in this case it was slanted in favor of the artist. In Scandinavia right now there is a horrid hatred of  Muslims brewing so this artist is cheer as a hero for  insulting them.

Any way slant or no the fact remains. A man with an ax attacks, a grown man run and hide and leave a defenseless child alone with the armed man intent on killing her grandfather. No slant or no slant can take away those facts.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 7:18:28 AM   
Nephilim


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I disagree.  If you are literally being chased by a man, say 10 steps away who is armed, and you are unarmed, putting a door between you and them would be your best option.  If the man continued to bang at the door, there is no way the kid could be in danger, therefore you are doing the right thing by keeping the guy focused on you.  Then, if he pushed the panic button and cops arrive within 2 minutes while the assailant was fixated on him, that all seems reasonable.  This scenario falls within what was stated.  If you would like to dispute the motives of the artist and your perception of him trying to save only himself at all cost, I'm afraid you would have to gather more actual evidence.  Obviously, judging by the outcome, he did the right thing.  Would you prefer the story to read, man is hacked to death while trying to retrieve child who was not the subject of the attack and was in the next room?  Would that save the man's honor?  So, again, there is no evidence from those articles to suggest that he did anything inappropriate or left an unarmed child alone with an axe murderer.  It may be the case, and if so, that is a bad thing, but again, just because something can be the case is no reason to malign the guy.

Also, if you think a unarmed "grown man" should not run when a man attacks with a knife and ax, then you have been watching way too many action movies.

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 7:25:11 AM   
starshineowned


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Greetings..

This is really hard to say what happened because I've seen like 3 different versions of the same episode. The man left his grandchild on the couch because the police told him to as the attacker would not go after her..just him. The man left his grandchild on the couch and fled to safety for himself. The man fled to a safe area with his grandchild.

So I guess it really boils down to what news article you choose to believe as factual.

starshine


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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 7:28:02 AM   
PolyVinyl


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(phew) All other items aside...it could have turned out a lot worse. I'm glad his actions didn't result in the Somalian deciding to attack the daughter. And Nephilim, I doubt many people would try to directly attack the axe-wielder while unarmed...but if he started moving towards your daughter, at what point is personal safety left on the side of the road?

Not having ever had this happen to me, I can't know for sure...but if for instance a young neighbor was getting attacked, I think I'd suddenly get a lot braver, and I think the same applies to all of you, men or women.

What do you think?

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 7:33:30 AM   
PolyVinyl


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Also, I have a question: granted, the media is currently focusing on Islam as the "center of terrorism" and other trite bull, but.. it does kind of seem like the radical Muslims seem to be the most violent (e.g. haven't heard of a christian suicide bombing since the whole irish terrorism fiasco back in the 80's).

Think it's because Islam is like the largest religion, so it has the largest percentage of looners amongst all the regular people?

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 7:49:40 AM   
Nephilim


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I agree PolyVinyl, if the Somalian had moved toward the child, things may have been different.  I like to think that I would defend the child at any cost, as, I think, we all would.  My simple point in posting to the thread was that there wasn't evidence of that in any of the articles.

There is another potential issue that I'm sure others here can explain better and know more about than I do and that is the body's reaction to stress.  As I understand it, it is difficult to know exactly how we will react under extreme stress, even battle hardened soldiers can freeze or do unexpected things in these types of situations and while we would Like to think we would do this or that, we can't say unless we were in that situation.  Then there is the question of if our reaction to this type of stress says anything about us as a person morally.  Is a person who, overcome with fear/stress/adrenaline who freezes, or runs away a worse person?  Even training can only prepare us so much for that type of environment.  Also, does a negative reaction to a specific circumstance negate previous heroism or courage?

We know that this man consciously did something that could endanger his life based on a principle.  I think that requires courage.  Was that lacking in this episode? Even if so, I don't think it negates his previous courage.  If each of us is only an offense or slight against Islam away from having ax wielding nutjobs at our door, I am glad there are others who will stand up and point them out, even if they run like freighted girl when they give chase.

Islam does seem to be churning out the nutjobs in mass lately, but Christianity does get its share.  Don't forget any killings or bombings on abortion clinics. Also some militant Christianity incorporates strong racism which leads to race crimes.  It doesn't seem often that Christians blow Themselves up, but I don't think that makes them better.  You are right that one reason is how large the religion is, but their religious texts, dogma, and actual ideals make it very easy for radicals to fall on.  Of course, Islam and Christianity have more in common than not.

< Message edited by Nephilim -- 1/5/2010 7:55:15 AM >

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 8:06:43 AM   
Jeffff


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It is one thing to endanger only yourself. Very few of us live in a vacumn. If your actions endanger some one close to you, you had better be prepared.

I am with Asawd on this.


Jeff

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 8:48:47 AM   
Nephilim


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Jeffff, do you understand that there is no evidence and no description of a circumstance where the man in the story endangered anyone?  I think it might be better to read or re-write the story as a parable rather than fact, then you can draw those conclusions without implying something that may not be true about an actual person that can, in fact, do them harm.  There are always those who look for evidence in poor reporting to blame the victim, I think you need a stronger source.  I suppose this wouldn't be as interesting as a parable since basically all you are saying is it is wrong and not heroic to toss your children to the wolves.  Again, the courage an heroism of this man came from his initial act that provoked people into wanting to kill him, proving that it was certainly a valid claim that the media avoided offending Muslims because this might be a result.  I'm sure that if his actions in this case were correct, then some would claim he only originally created the drawings for fame, and some people, I'm sure, will blame George Bush.



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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 8:54:31 AM   
purelea2003


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Fast Reply

So then, let's say a woman lives with a man who smokes and drinks. She has a baby who sleeps in a crib upstairs. One night the man gets drunk, falls asleep on the couch downstairs while smoking and starts the house afire. The woman wakes in her room to the fire alarm and thick smoke. Is it then the woman's fault, if the baby perishes in the flames? She did, after all, know the man could set the house afire while smoking and drinking. Does she have a legal obligation to rush through the smoke and flames to rescue the baby? Most of us would say we'd do anything to rescue the baby. Maybe we would and maybe we wouldn't. Heaven forbid we ever find out. Although it is different circumstance, it's a case of someone knowingly choosing to live in a dangerous situation with a child present.

How many women live with batterers? So far the batterer has only beaten them and never when the child was watching. But don't statistics suggest the batterer will eventually abuse the child? Should the woman be charged with child endangerment because she chooses to stay and try to work out the problem? Should the parents of the child in the OPs' senerio be charged with reckless endangerment for leaving the girl with her grandpa?

Every law enforcement officer is in a situation where they may someday offend some very dangerous people. Every person who testifies against the local meth cooker or some violent criminal is in danger of revenge. Should none of those afore mentioned people be allowed to have children? Does anyone else see a slippery slope there?

If the man wants to make fun of Mohammed, or any other sacred cow, I believe he should have right without fear of being attacked by a lunatic. People make fun of Jesus all the time - I don't run out with an axe and try to chop them up. I don't think Jesus would be very happy if I did.

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 9:29:16 AM   
Nephilim


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RE: purealea2000

I think there is and should be a vast difference between legal and moral responsibility.  Certainly, in the circumstances described, the women have a moral responsibility for what happens.  The problem with these types of issues is that they are too debatable to have them judged by law.  Also, what we see, is that the more we allow government to regulate things, the more they want to regulate and it can get quite Orwellian.  It is already far to easy to use child-welfare here as an excuse to control people. 

A bit off topic - Where I am located, if you shoot someone in anger, hatred, revenge, whatever, you get a lighter sentence than if you shoot them and use a racial slur.  I know a bail-bondsman (an asshole, I admit), who shot a fleeing bail-jumper which would have been rather minor except that in frustration while arresting the person, he used a racial slur, he is still in prison as far as I am aware, while the man he shot has gotten a few more arrests selling dope to kids.

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 3:01:14 PM   
Aswad


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Nephilim, you are providing a further example of precisely what I lament.

Jeff has the right of it: this man has taken an injured, small girl into his home when he himself feared an attack to such an extent as to build a shelter for himself in case of an attack, and then proceeds to leave his charge to her own devices and haul ass to the safe room when someone does turn up. Whether or not the police advised him that it would be a reasonable gamble, I couldn't really care less. His choices, his charge, his obligation.

That this passes for a man, and that another man would defend his actions, that troubles me.

As for Islam, I will not make a huge thread about history here. Suffice to say that while we may have forgotten the countless atrocities the West has committed, and the fact that we have been meddling in the middle east for a long time and practically made an outright effort to piss them off, these things are not as easily forgotten by those on the other side of that equation. Neither side is blameless here. Another thread, another time.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 6:01:09 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
How does that come to pass for manhood, let alone heroism?

I do not know, Aswad. I am a coward too and apathic to boot. I dunno what I would have done. Probably I would have waited until the girl was slaughtered and then asked the guy to not do that again. (As I do not have a safe room.) Or alternatively, I might have counseled the girl to take out the axe-guy.

I would also have asked the axe guy if he was a Jew, for anyone with a mutilated penis by my definition is a Jew, and I know that Muslims mutilate the penis of their male offspring. If them Danes had any sense, they would be concerned about men with mutilated penises invading their houses with axes.

In any case, I do not think that man a hero. He was rather stupid when he drew and published those cartoons. That was not a smart way to cause Muslims to abdicate their Jewish religion. It would have been far smarter to ask them to drop their pants to prove that they are not Jews and to admonish them that Muhammed had no mutilated penis.

Jews - people with circumcized penises - were the main enemies of Muhammed. Anyone with a mutilated penis is an adversary of the god of Muhammed.

That is it: he ought to have drawn Muhammed with his pants down, presenting a whole penis.




< Message edited by Rule -- 1/5/2010 6:02:19 PM >

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 6:03:58 PM   
Nephilim


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What bothers me is how someone can jump to judge someone without knowing what actually happened.  If your argument is that any hated political/public figure who has received threats should never have family, or children stay over, I doubt you are going to have too many people agree with you.  If your argument is about the intentions of the guy (cartoonist), you are completely guessing, because they are not stated or implied in the articles that I read and since you haven't supplied them, I doubt you have them.  Also, the end result was a positive outcome. 

If you were in the public eye for anything that put you on bad guys lists, would you swear off anyone who might come close to you?  If there is a living room off of the entry where there is a child and a man breaks in the front door and runs toward you away from the child, would you unarmed go after the guy with the knife and ax because he might decide that death and "revenge" was for the poor injured girl in the other room instead of you?  I would hope you would have the sense to move back, I bet he would follow,  perhaps running around an island or doing a Benny Hill hallway scene to Yakety Sax.  Or maybe step behind a reinforced door you had build specifically for this purpose.  I bet you could still hear the banging, and when it stops, you know that is when the killer in the movie is going after someone else.  Or the police have arrived, you know in the 120 seconds it took them to get from the outside of the house to the inside of the house, either way, you don't have to open the door until then.  I think the problem is that you subscribe to the Conan school of pull out your broadsword rather than the horror movie tactics of evade, think, call the authorities, don't ask the bad guy to kill you.  I suppose in your world, you would have preferred an honorable death where your granddaughter got to watch her grandfather hacked up by a madman.  The run away method of dealing with armed attacker may not be as cool as a hand to hand action sequence, but reality isn't usually that cool in the outcomes either.  So, unless you have some quote where the guy says "I was scared sh1tless, and I only thought about saving my own ass" you don't know what he was thinking, also without a layout of the house and reconstruction of events you can't say if his actions were brave or cowardly.   Without fact, all you have is libel.  Even if the guy is scared sh1tless and made a rash decision in the 120 seconds he was involved in the situation, that doesn't make the guy a bad guy or "not a man".   If you have that information, you know, where it says he did anything wrong, please share or tell us how you woulda' taken' on a guy with a knife and an ax because you are a "real man" and likely gotten yourself killed, as opposed to this guy who ended up safe, as well as his daughter.

Also, again, being a public or even hated figure does not mean you shouldn't get visits from family.  I mean, if he completely isolated himself and couldn't live his life, wouldn't he have done better if just martyring himself?  This wasn't a day after publication, this was a long after most of the controversy had blown over and people had already been caught trying to kill him.   You don't have to die or even expect to die to do a courageous act, and spitting in the eye of terrorists is pretty courageous.

I am surprised and disappointed to see this thread because it attacks a victim with absolutely no proof or reason.  But after reading it, I am certainly not surprised that you would need a whole different thread to go on about how the west has brought terrorism on itself.  I thought one of the ideals of Gor was about Kinship and respecting ones own city/country/heritage.  Is this Samolian guy more of a kinsman to you than the man making a point that there are people who will try to kill you for your "freedom" of expression.  I suppose since you didn't hold earth or do a spit handshake with him he doesn't count.  Some people lament the loss of heroes and of "real men", they haven't been lost, they have been sullied by half truths and pointless conjecture.



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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 6:09:44 PM   
Jeffff


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Given everything you have said, if someone crashed through your door with an axe and an Innocent loved one was helpless in the room, would you leave that person and run?

It really boils down to that and only that.

Your position in your community, your motivation, your purpose all vanish at that moment. For me it does anyway.
I am not saying it would be easy to protect the other. I am saying it would be right.

Jeff

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 6:29:42 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PolyVinyl
it does kind of seem like the radical Muslims seem to be the most violent (e.g. haven't heard of a christian suicide bombing since the whole irish terrorism fiasco back in the 80's).

In Jewish religions, Islam being one of them, martyrs go to Heaven.

In Christian religions, people that commit suicide go to Hell. If I recall correctly that dogma was introduced a couple of centuries after Christ, possibly during the council of Nicea. That caused the number of Christian martyrs to drop sharply: people did not want to go to Hell.

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 6:35:04 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
this man has taken an injured, small girl into his home when he himself feared an attack to such an extent as to build a shelter for himself in case of an attack, and then proceeds to leave his charge to her own devices and haul ass to the safe room when someone does turn up. Whether or not the police advised him that it would be a reasonable gamble, I couldn't really care less. His choices, his charge, his obligation.

That this passes for a man, and that another man would defend his actions, that troubles me.

Ever consider that the intent of this grandfather may have been all along that his granddaughter might be killed? As has been noted, there is something brewing against Islam in Scandinavian countries. What better way to stir the ant nest than to have someone be murdered over these cartoons? The cartoonist is an old geezer who is about to die from old age anyway and his granddaughter may have been considered expendable.

In cases such as these, it is best to not be insufficiently paranoid.

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 6:47:24 PM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule



Ever consider that the intent of this grandfather may have been all along that his granddaughter might be killed? As has been noted, there is something brewing against Islam in Scandinavian countries. What better way to stir the ant nest than to have someone be murdered over these cartoons? The cartoonist is an old geezer who is about to die from old age anyway and his granddaughter may have been considered expendable.

In cases such as these, it is best to not be insufficiently paranoid.


In that case Aswad's original post still stands. The man is not to be admired.


Jeff

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RE: On cowering behind little girls to escape consequen... - 1/5/2010 7:00:20 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff
In that case Aswad's original post still stands. The man is not to be admired.

Quite.

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