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Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 6:28:13 AM   
lisaSea


Posts: 340
Joined: 8/27/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Masters, Mistresses and slaves...

In light of what just happened here (in Masters home) and an article written by a slave recently elsewhere, I am posting this question in hopes of hearing others responses.

Is there such a thing as being too dependent on one's owner?    Often we hear of the total surrender, the giving of oneself to their owner in all things, the level of committment and dedication.  

The question was asked in this article if we become too dependent, to the point of not being able to function in their absense.  

I realize in a gorean household the slave gives everything, nothing is held back, she/he is totally at the whim of the one served...is there a small amount that should be held back, in order to not become a mass of quivering flesh when suddenly the slave is left alone to fend for herself?  (unexpected illness or loss of one's owner, not simply a few days for business, permanent loss) 

(I have no agenda for asking this, it was a fun topic elsewhere and I thought we could use some of that here *smiles*)

lisa{Sea's}






_____________________________

I prefer to think of it as aged to perfection, rather then just plain getting older.

http://www.geocities.com/house_of_sea
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RE: Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 6:51:14 AM   
allyC


Posts: 776
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline 		Hello, lisa.  :) This is a topic that I have mulled around in my head for the past several years or so.  It is something I struggle with on a regular basis and it is one that sometimes frightens me. I do believe we can become "too" dependent on our owners.  I feel this way because I believe I have become that way.  It is so strange to actually admit it because it is something that I have fought against to one degree or another for so long... I know that if something happened to my owner that I could care for myself financially.  I am capable of maintaining a home and running a business and making ends meet.  But those are the easy things (at least in my opinion.) I realize that I have become so utterly emotionally and mentally dependent on him that I often feel like I would surely wither and die inside without his upper hand and his guidance.  He truly is like the sun to me and I feel as if I am merely the moon - needy of his light for my own illumination.   I tried to hold a part of me back - I really did but I believe that I failed because just the mere thought of having to push through life without his tutelage and mastery brings me to an emotional place of fear and profound despair.   Perhaps in some place deep inside I believe that I would eventually move on.  I am human and we (as a general rule) are fairly resilient.  I am sure that in time, I could learn to become a whole person again but in that same dark, deep place, I also fear that I would forever be just a fraction of what I am when I am with him.  I feel like I would just completely fall apart and be wretchedly lost. Geez I'm rambling...  Sorry 'bout that. Hannyways... I guess maybe one could try to hold that small amount back but if she is really on the path of enslavement by a man who is capable of firm and complete mastery, she might have a hard time doing so as living within such a state tends to make even the strongest woman lose hold of any reservations she may have, no matter how hard she clings. Well wishes, lisa, Cav's ally

(in reply to lisaSea)
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RE: Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 7:31:26 AM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		what a great question, lisa.
 
i can't answer it from the perspective that ally so eloquently did ... from a completely enslaved woman. i've never experienced that. if it can be measured, i'd say i've experienced about 75% of it in a previous relationship. so i've always had one step in my slavery and one in my independence. but for the sake of this thread i'll hypothosize  ;) ... (and because this is what i would strive for) ...
 
assuming we're talking about (what i would call) a healthy relationship ... one in which the Master makes practical provisions for his slave in case of his absence. i would vote for letting go entirely if that's what you're inclined to do. fear can be so paralyzing and cause us to lead unfilling lives. for example: some people are afraid of flying and so never get on an airplane. of course they can live very happy lives never visiting other countries. but how liberating and exiting for those who choose to venture to exotic lands!
 
it's smart to plan for the future. it makes sense to consider all possible outcomes and to plan wisely. but i wouldn't advise living in fear. some risks are worth taking.
 
humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to lisaSea)
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RE: Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 7:36:09 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 1483
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		greetings
 
I am not sure how to answer your question.  But there comes a time regardless, that we must deal with a reality we may not be prepared for nor does it fit within our defentions.  Never the less we must deal with it.   Can someone, anyone, become too dependent?  My answer is yes. 
 
I wish you well
 
Nosathro

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to lisaSea)
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RE: Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 8:20:32 AM   
LoupdeMontagne


Posts: 49
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline 		I would say that yes, slaves can be too dependent on their owners, and no they shouldn't hold back any part of themselves. It is their owners responsibility to ensure that the slave will be taken care of when and if something should happen to them. If they can't be responsible towards what they own they shouldn't own anything.

Hephaestus
Chambre du Loup de Montagne

(in reply to Nosathro)
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RE: Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 11:17:20 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lisaSea

.is there a small amount that should be held back, in order to not become a mass of quivering flesh when suddenly the slave is left alone to fend for herself?  (unexpected illness or loss of one's owner, not simply a few days for business, permanent loss) 


lisa{Sea's}



greetings,

I know I won't be left alone to fend for myself, the Owner has already made arrangements. Nothing should be held back , if you hold back you are cheating yourself but more importantly you are cheating  the One that owns you.

well wishes
kisshou

(in reply to lisaSea)
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RE: Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 1:07:10 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings to Master Sea and to you lisa..meowww

Leave it to me to put rocks in with the ball bearings..:)

I am having trouble making this direct connection of: Total surrender and To dependent? Especially to the point of non-functioning if the worst should come.

Anyone with examples please?

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin


(in reply to lisaSea)
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RE: Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 1:31:43 PM   
allyC


Posts: 776
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoupdeMontagne  "...It is their owners responsibility to ensure that the slave will be taken care of when and if something should happen to them..."
 I know that in my case, my owner has made many provisions for me - especially in the financial aspects.  I will have a home to live in and more than enough money to start over again on my own but it isn't financial dependence that has its grip on me - It runs much, much deeper than that. 
quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou  "I know I won't be left alone to fend for myself, the Owner has already made arrangements. Nothing should be held back , if you hold back you are cheating yourself but more importantly you are cheating  the One that owns you."
 I know girls who have been assured that if something happened to their owner that he has someone there to take responsibility for her.  They have an agreement with another man to take ownership of the girl etc. Perhaps my owner and I view it differently than most.  He doesn't believe (neither do I) that my slavery to him is based on my need to "be a slave."  We believe that it is based on my need to belong to him specifically.  It is he who inspired my surrender and it is he who has been the constant, proactive catalyst to my ongoing enslavement.  I wasn't looking for a master when I met him.  He simply made me his slave. Giving me to another man is not an option for him nor does he believe it would benefit me at all.  He knows I'm a big girl and that I know how to make decisions, earn money, pay bills, and care for myself. For me it is much deeper than dependence - much more profound than slavery... For me love is involved.  Not just any love but an all-consuming, passionate, give everything, unconditional, once-in-a-thousand-lifetimes kind of love.  I can honestly say that I don't know if I could ever feel anything like this again and neither he nor myself believe that another man or owner would be beneficial to my dependence issues...   I don't simply have a need to serve - I have a need to serve him. The dependence issue for me isn't about needing to be owned, needing someone to take care of me, or needing financial stability.  The dependence issue for me is a mixture of emotional/mental dependence and profound love for the extraordinary man who owns me.  These things cannot be provided for - they can't be replaced and they can't be fixed by a caregiver, another owner, or financial security.    I know that if something were to happen to him, the only thing that will assist me in becoming whole again is time. Well wishes, Cav's ally  

(in reply to LoupdeMontagne)
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RE: Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 1:50:26 PM   
Quivver


Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshine333
fear can be so paralyzing and cause us to lead unfilling lives.
humbly,
sunshine

Lisa thank you, this topic has been one that's nagged at me,
I'm sure my fears and experainces are not much different then many others, yet somewhere, something has kept me from with my feet firmly planted on each side of the fence for just such a reason.
Like Sunshine wrote above, I watched my mother live another 18 unfufilling years after my dominant father passed, each day worshiping the ground he once walked on.  Who knows if they saw the world thru Kinky eyes, but I know many of his views and actions would have fit a Gorean lifestyle.  Was she too dependant?  Or just so firmly stuck in Awe I dont know.... Now to get more to my point.
That ~was~ what I knew... That's how I approached relationships..
Course I choose wrong. *sigh* .. Looking at my mother now, I wish
I could find what she had but I grew into what I am today...
but that's another thread entirely...


_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

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RE: Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 2:05:36 PM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		greetings,

in my case, i know that if something were to happen to him, or to our relationship i would be better now than i was before he took me.  I am not even close to the same girl i was a year and 6 months ago.  

He has improved me,   that is just his way tho.   Will i always need to be a slave?   don't know.   i do know that i will always love him.

_____________________________

In service,

edana

"Discipline turns talent into ability"

(in reply to lisaSea)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 2:35:23 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

The dependence issue for me isn't about needing to be owned, needing someone to take care of me, or needing financial stability.  The dependence issue for me is a mixture of emotional/mental dependence and profound love for the extraordinary man who owns me. 


Yes thankyou ally...This is what I think about when I think of becoming dependent, and I can find no real way to think this will or could not be the result in the end ..regardless of there having been or Not been Total surrender. I do see perhaps the degree of dependency in the after thought being affected because in that Total surrender the deeper bonds of life, love, and living occur.

Alittle in difference though in that the slave has been inside me and the need to serve Men in that capacity is almost all encompassing. What I do see being affected on that ground is ..it is already limited in finding a Man and took 17yrs...finding a Man that (no way to stop it) would measure up to Master in my eyes so that I could know again fully what I know now..might never happen.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to allyC)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 4:30:21 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2932
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

I hope that I can answer this from first off a Human Beings point of view,
then a Daughters point of view, then a Wifes point of view, then a Lovers
point of view, then a Dominants point of view, then a Mothers point of view
then a caretakers point of view,then a Owners point of view, and last but
not least from a Widows point of view. Any one can become dependant on another
regardless of lifestyle choice or who or what they are presented in the opportunity
to be such in life. None are guaranteed life much less one thats dependent
be it with self or others. Its the luxury of being free in ones enslavement
that gives permission for total dependence on another thats the true gift
just as its the freedom in ones Dominant dependence that is a luxury and gift
given to another to enjoy and live life within. One need not be a slave to have
been totally dependent on another in life and in losing such a life fail to be
able to live life again. Ive had dear Dominant Male Gorean freinds take their
Own life not wanting to live on any longer after the loss of a cherished one.
As a Dominant My Own Husbands provided Me a bit of a net to help in times of
emergency that life throws at Us all in the most unexpected times that We must go
on from.Ive known the heartache of losing Dominance around Me and that dependence that
was not just shaken to the core but brought back to life not by My Own wallowed
burden of sorrows I could not seem to climb out of but by the very slaves who
were enslaved by those around Me who gave Me back My strength and sight to see
My ability to hold Our dependence strong and sound in just their being there
to push Me back up and control that which they knew they could not and I could
again. I would not for a moment think about again totally becoming dependent upon
that which needs My dependence to Dominate nor would any of the slaves around Me
I'm sure, but in the mean time We all as a family stick it out together and find
the common ground of role to sit in comfortably and hope that Our dependence on
one another is enough to get Us thru till something better comes along. Thats how
you deal with loss Goreans, not in the feeling of needing your dependence and Independence
but in the knowing when to come together and stick out the loss times together as One.
Thats what Ive learned in life living...

(in reply to starshineowned)
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RE: Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 6:35:14 PM   
lisaSea


Posts: 340
Joined: 8/27/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Masters, Mistresses and slaves...

First, I wish to thank everyone who took the time to respond *smiles* 

Again, I think ally hit the nail on the head, (for me personally).   If it's ok with your owner ally, can I send all my stuff to you so that you can filter it and put things in writing so beautifully? *winks*

I was speaking of emotional, more so then financial, since like most I know Master has made provisions that will leave me well taken care of.   We joke around alot here and when asked if I would seek another once he was taken from me, my reply was "no, the Denny's shoes are being retired".   I can't see myself being so entirely driven by another man, to the point that my day is made up of thoughts on how to please him next. 

When you are so...for lack of a better phrase, "in tune" to another human being, your emotions are directly tied into theirs, when they are happy, you are elated, when they are angry, it creates a hole in your deepest center...it is not easy to loose that and NOT have difficulty coping.  

I don't see myself becoming unable to function in society if the dreaded happens, but I do see some serious grieving.   Not having a crystal ball, I cannot tell what the future would hold, but right now, at this minute, I can't imagine another man evoking what Master does. 

Again, thank you, I am grateful to have read such responses.  I love to learn how others think, human behavior is very interesting to me

lisa{Sea's}

_____________________________

I prefer to think of it as aged to perfection, rather then just plain getting older.

http://www.geocities.com/house_of_sea

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: Dealing with loss - 3/21/2006 7:00:41 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		greetings girls,

this is so weird but just the other night the Owner and I had a conversation where he asked me what I would do if he freed me. I immediately stated " I would beg someone else's collar." Mistress Sabrina posted on a different thread about being a beta female in the natural order. For me being owned is a mater of survival. I hope this does not make me sound less devoted to the Owner, I hope my posts reflect how I feel about him. I think his arrangements are to help me through the grieving process not because anyone else could ever be a substitute for him. I have sadly experienced sorrow and deaths of loved ones. I have learned that life goes on and to never say never. I prayed every single night for an end to my suffering and then one night God had the Owner find me. Since then every romantic dream I have ever had has come true.

well wishes
kisshou

(in reply to lisaSea)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Dealing with loss - 3/22/2006 1:24:16 AM   
unownedredhead


Posts: 498
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		A slave is a strong being.  Yes, they are dependent upon their Master for their happiness and mental well being and even their physical well being.  But, I know after I fell apart in the ashes of my loss when he died, I stood up and brushed myself off and asked myself, "what would my Master want me to do?"  I went back to school, I worked, I raised my kids, I purchased land.  I did not have the responsiblility of other slaves and and an extensive household to care for as MistressDread did.  I stood up to my small plate and swung the bat as hard as I could.  Would I have had the courage to swing that bat if that plate had been as extensive as MistressDreads's?  I don't know.  But, I know Gorean slaves are stronger than the outside world gives us credit for.  A couple of people have mentioned financial well being.  I would like to cry at how stupid that is.  Money is nothing.... I have earned it, accumulated it and it is empty.......I would give all that I have to just have him back.  The Gorean slaves that I know personally all have successful careers and are comfortable in their own skin.....unlike many of my vanilla friends.  This has gone on too long and I am starting to babble.  When we Gorean slaves experience loss...we cry...we take a deep breath....we stand....we carry on.

dina

_____________________________

Kneeling trembling at your feet

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RE: Dealing with loss - 3/22/2006 6:53:44 AM   
lisaSea


Posts: 340
Joined: 8/27/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you, dina.  

Your words tugged at my heart and brought a smile.

lisa{Sea's}



_____________________________

I prefer to think of it as aged to perfection, rather then just plain getting older.

http://www.geocities.com/house_of_sea

(in reply to unownedredhead)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Dealing with loss - 3/22/2006 8:56:01 AM   
wolffeathers


Posts: 315
Joined: 8/6/2005
From: Clearwater
Status: offline 		I make sure my girl can fend for herself if something were to happen to me.  she holds....held a job, and will have another.  I want her to have the work experence where she can pay for herself if something happens, till she has a new owner.    

_____________________________

It's my way or the highway. Just happens that the highway is on my way.

~Master Wolf

(in reply to lisaSea)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Dealing with loss - 3/22/2006 11:43:25 AM   
MasterEros


Posts: 213
Status: offline 		Greetings:
 
Having read the posting and threads thereafter I now write the following:
 
"The power of unrelenting dominance that indeed invokes the service of beauty and grace through service in submission which leads to total servitude clearly dwells past the exterior physical service of the pleasure of owning Your slaves' body to the degree of commanding her with yet what is the deeper strength, irrevocable love, the true power that nothing nor no one can break asunder once the soul of what belongs to a Master has been caressed in the yoking of her soul to His through the unforgettable imprints of His presence, sealed forever in her heart, mind, body and soul." 
 
composed by: Master D.B.E.-2006-copyrighted-all rights reserved
 
In abiding Strength,
Master D.B.E.

(in reply to wolffeathers)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Dealing with loss - 3/22/2006 2:11:36 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		this is quite an interesting read.i'm so glad for all the input to process.perhaps one day i shall call this all to mind.
since i've never been owned in a live-in relationship with Master i have always been allowed some autonomy with regard to my unmentionables, bill-paying, career, etc.i have sought out Masters advice and been given instructions but in many ways i was 'still in charge' of alot of areas of my life.*shrugs*

< Message edited by fyreredsub -- 3/22/2006 2:14:27 PM >

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to lisaSea)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Dealing with loss - 3/22/2006 2:23:06 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		this past 6 weeks is the longest i have gone without a Master other than as a mentor and it is starting to take its toll on me.i am getting very restless these days and struggling with a good deal of qustions, so i try to be pro-active and keep learning and reading and at times i lean on the shoulders of those here i can call friend. i am not dependant on anyone, i never really have been, maybe that is why i feel so odd.
i have had a Master touch my soul but it scared me at the time and i didnt know what to do or how to act.so he sent me to learn to serve.i ask him for help every now and again and listen to his words and instructions but those day go few and far between.
the other, well, i dont like to talk about it anymore, its painful still, he trained me well in many ways but the deceits far outweighed the good.
so i go on and one day i will find someone that won't do like the one i had thought i had recently found and will be more like the one i lost.
for the most part i am happy with my life, i have many blessings but i dont feel as tho i am truly living it as i should be.

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to kisshou)
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