Collarchat.com

Create a
Free Account		 As the Collar Turns:
 Collarchat.com - BDSM Forum

Home  Login  Search 
Espanol  Deutsch  Francais  Italiano  Portugues 

RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean."


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/14/2010 8:43:04 PM   
Saffleur


Posts: 247
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Lenoir NC
Status: offline 		Tal Gurlugon,

It is true that the ideal way of learning about Gor starts with the books. I agree with what Malkinius has said time and again...goes something like this;

Read the books for the story first.
Read them again to begin understanding the philosophy
Continue reading to find the subtleties you missed.

Of course I am paraphrasing that and my apologies if you take offense Malkinius.

I understand you say you are on a tight budget and some libraries actually carry the books. That place is free! Used book stores are also good dives to find them.

Going past the books, you can learn much by communicating here on the forums or seeking out Goreans locally. Much like the books however, strangers are generally not looked upon easily. How you carry yourself and present yourself will speak far louder than the words that come from your lips.

As for natural order, Kimveri was incorrect in her statement that the term "Natural Order" is never used. It is used quite a couple of times, at least once in Explorers and also in Guardsman, but I digress.

We could banter back and forth on the proper term but in the short of it, the natural order of nature is dominant and submissive. They co-exist. The idea of such an order is not even remotely an idea strictly found within Gorean life. It is something biologically inherent and before written word. Not all men are made that way of course. Some are naturally so. Some discover that they are and as was stated...some follow.

In either case, your journey will be as uniquw as others if you care to experience it.

I wish you well,
Scott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gurlugon

Hello all. Yes, I am a new to these ideals and have never read the books or really looked into it. In fact, I just had a crash course in the Gorean FAQ section and I think I understand the basic gist of things.

My reason for posting is really more of a learning venture for myself. And no, I don't want just one answer, as it is very obvious that Gor can be interpreted many different ways.

So, what's your take on the "Natural Order" of things? At first glance, from todays point of view, it automatically comes off as sexist and derogatory towards women. But as one reads on to find out that this isn't the case, that there are submissive men and dominent women, things become clearer.

Now I understand that there is more to being Gorean than just the role of the sexes, but I think it is the more crucial issue that people have not in understanding Gor, but in accepting it. So please, enlighten me.

Thanks.


_____________________________

When we see men of worth, we should think of equaling them; when we see men of a contrary character, we should turn inward and examine ourselves.

(in reply to Gurlugon)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 3:17:54 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

We could banter back and forth on the proper term but in the short of it, the natural order of nature is dominant and submissive. They co-exist. The idea of such an order is not even remotely an idea strictly found within Gorean life. It is something biologically inherent and before written word. Not all men are made that way of course. Some are naturally so. Some discover that they are and as was stated...some follow.


It should also be noted that this go the other way around to. While there are men who are followers, there are also women we are natural leaders. Or rather one can perhaps look at it like that. There exist non one man which do not have some female qualities, and not one woman who do not have some male qualities. However some men have more female qualities than the norm and some women hare more male qualities then the norm.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to Saffleur)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 4:17:28 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

there are also women [who] are natural leaders.

But far fewer than they think.


quote:

While there are men who are followers

And yes, far more than they realize.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/15/2010 5:14:56 AM >

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 4:59:18 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Saffleur
As for natural order, Kimveri was incorrect in her statement that the term "Natural Order" is never used. It is used quite a couple of times, at least once in Explorers and also in Guardsman, but I digress.


Got any references? Just one? Uhh-huh. It's not just something I made up...check what Trevelyan has to say on it HERE. Also, he shared this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan
The one slim difference, which makes me favor it, is that "order of nature" is used in the books.  Using the search capability, you can find ever single time Norman used the phrase, and see how he invariably explained it.
"Natural order" on the other hand, is never used in the books, which makes it slightly more open to individual interpretation and definition.


So, perhaps it's easy to call me incorrect, dismiss my statements out of hand since I am a woman....but do you intend to do the same with the word's of a man?

~K

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Saffleur)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 5:23:34 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saffleur
As for natural order, Kimveri was incorrect in her statement that the term "Natural Order" is never used. It is used quite a couple of times, at least once in Explorers and also in Guardsman, but I digress.


Got any references? Just one? Uhh-huh. It's not just something I made up...

...So, perhaps it's easy to call me incorrect, dismiss my statements out of hand since I am a woman....but do you intend to do the same with the word's of a man?

~K


Kimveri said emphasis mine:

quote:

No where in the whole series does the term "Natural Order" arise....not once.




Page 188 of Explores (again emphasis mine) -- taken directly from the book. Though i was lazy with the " marks.

"Its hard to be a man," i said, "until one stands in relation to a woman. And, i suppose, its hard to be a woman until one stands in relation to a man."
"What relation," she asked "Master?"
"That of the natural order of nature," i said.

I haven't checked Guardsman.

Is this one enough Kimveri. It is the TERM in and of itself and it is used. I am not debating the meaning, i am just offering the reference of the term being used.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 1/15/2010 5:32:30 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 5:43:56 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Of course, here the term is "natural order of nature."

I'd be curious if anyone finds "natural order" by itself, without the modifier.

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 5:47:50 AM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 368
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Of course, here the term is "natural order of nature."

I'd be curious if anyone finds "natural order" by itself, without the modifier.

Tim


We can be relatively certain that tammy's boy artie will find it in one of his books, since they are all hand written in crayon.

John, AKA Dinnardin

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 5:58:06 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Well, let's do our part and keep it "over there," in the "Sagas."

I'm sure we've all had enough; time to let things lay.

And get back to the natural order of nature!

Part of the problem with that term, of course, is the redundancy. Lange is an academic, and frankly, many academics ignore the craft of writing in favor of more pretentious constructions. The archaic word choices in the books exemplify this, e.g., "his sword depended from his belt."

But again, if "natural order" sits by itself, that would be an interesting passage to revisit.

Live well,

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Dinnardin)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 6:04:00 AM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
Tal all,

If someone got the full set of the books in e-book version, maybe a search could be made to make this clear by one of the serving oriented females?

And I agree, Tim, it would be an interesting passage to revisit. One I personally would like to reread again.


I wish you well,

  Camerius




_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 6:11:11 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Tim that i don't know, but the term by itself is used at least this once. Kimveri asked for a reference of its use and when Saffleur stated Explorer's it was the first i looked in and the term is there. And then i found this one.

Blood Brothers pg 42 in my book the sentence i am quoting is 3rd line from the bottom.

I don't have time to type out the context its being used in which we all know is important when decipherin terms and quotes but the term is used alone:

The sentence is "Winyela danced the glory of life and the natural order; in it she danced her submission to the might of men and the fulfillment of her own femaleness..."

Sorry i am late for work, people can look up the whole of the paragraph and sentence to see the term natural order is used alone also. Again i am just offering the reference NOT disputing context or meaning lol.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 1/15/2010 6:22:52 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 6:43:37 AM   
sissyshoefetish


Posts: 105
Joined: 5/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gurlugon


So, what's your take on the "Natural Order" of things? At first glance, from todays point of view, it automatically comes off as sexist and derogatory towards women. But as one reads on to find out that this isn't the case, that there are submissive men and dominent women, things become clearer.


A good question.
The basic facts are that we are all human beings, a recently evolved ape species. There is a 15% sexual difference in size between make and female humans and this may be responsible for certain misunderstandings about social status and behaviour.

The dominance structures in human society are quite complex even though they can appear simple to a brief glance.
In terms of sexuality, human sexual behaviour, beyond the obvious basic process of copulation, seems to borrow heavily from other behaviours, for example parental caring, social grooming and aggressive dominance displays.

It would be foolish indeed to assume there is a natural order of sexual dominance. You can clearly see from any small sample of couples that dominance can be with either partner and can shift depending on the situation they are in.

Humans show a wide variety of sexual tastes and can be very experimental. The extremes of the concept of dominance in a human sexual relationship involve the concept of full dominance of one over the other but the chemistry of this will depend on the two individuals.

While you may notice a trend for male humans to adopt the more authoritative role in relationships and society this may not be the default state. You should bear in mind that the environment humans evolved to cope with probably involved them living in relatively small hunter gatherer family groups where there was considerable free time and where neither life long pairing, nor living as a nuclear family are part of the picture. Later forms of society, based on farming and cities have caused women to be equated with possessions and so put into a subservient role both socially and sexually. This is not the natural order but as warped as other behaviors are by the way we live.


Summary: The natural order for humans is for two (and sometimes more) individuals to form a bond based on common understandings and for the nature of that bond to reflect the personalities of both.
We live in a way that distorts our behavior from the way it evolved to be expressed and assumptions about us from only the way we live now may be wildly inaccurate.

(in reply to Gurlugon)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 7:02:13 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 26040
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		~FR

The full paragraph from angel's post

"I, myself, saw the symbolism of the dance, and, I think, so, too, did Winyela, in a pattern far deeper than that of an ethnocentric idiosyncrasy. I saw the symbolism as being in accord with what is certainly one of the deepest and most pervasive themes of organic nature, that of dominance and submission. In the dance, as I chose to understand it, Winyela danced the glory of life and the natural order; in it she danced her submission to the might of men and the fulfillment of her own femaleness; in it she danced her desire to be owned, to feel passion, to give of herself, unstintingly, to surrender herself, rejoicing, to service and love."
Page 42 - 43 - Blood Brothers of Gor


_____________________________

No body dies a virgin... life fucks everyone.

RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11

"There are no atheists getting blowjobs" ~Master Ron

+20 Heresy Points - Hard earned!

Duchess of Dissent 1

(in reply to sissyshoefetish)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 7:11:09 AM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
Good job, tazzy.


I wish you well,

  Camerius


_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 9:19:52 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3938
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri 

So, perhaps it's easy to call me incorrect, dismiss my statements out of hand since I am a woman....but do you intend to do the same with the word's of a man?




This "woman" comment must be one of those moments where you aren't actually attempting to backhandedly manipulate someone, even if it appears to several of us to be on the contrary.

I don't believe the detail that you are a woman has a damn thing to do with the fact you're just wrong about something................again.

If I were you, I'd be a bit more careful in the future, your credibility is now starting to suffer as a result of your recent activities...

Oh and I dug through both the old versions and new versions of the books (actually I made ishy do it) and found the woman Angels' research to be accurate. The words have indeed been used in that order, context not withstanding.

As for the man that you have brought into question I suspect I'll allow him to speak for himself, if he feels the need to do so. His credibility remains high on my list.

Damn those rotten ass Gorean men, even Norman seems to be in on it.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 1/15/2010 9:41:15 AM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 10:12:15 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

So besides size you think that the only difference between men and women and how we are raised? How do you then explain all the scientific research what show significant differences, even in small children? Like a few years ago the media spoke of a test where they had taken several hundred toddlers, boys and girls. They had placed the children in a room with a string the child could pull, when the string was pulled out came a piece of candy from a slot in the wall. Then the slot was closed so no matter how much the child pulled on the string, there would come no more candy. Now while there was a few girls who was aggressive and a few boys who where not, in almost all the children the little boys would tug like mad on that string and scream in rage, while the girls pulled the string a few times and when no candy came out, the girl sat down and cried. Now this is not the only such experiment. Hell there are even rather big difference in the brains of men and women.

My family did not raise me in a girly way, I have in fact always been a tomgirl. When a childe my favorite toys where Transformers figurines, and I loved computer games. And even now as an adult I am not very girly. I am physically strong, I am aggressive and territorial. But no matter how many male qualities I have, I can see several more ways in which I am feminine. And I was raised to be just what I wanted to be, that I was a girl was not important, what was important was that I was me.

Now no one is saying that there are not women who are sexually dominant and men who are sexually submissive, however men are far more often sexually dominant than women are. And that has far less to do with society and far more to do with nature than you think. Now you mentioned apes, you say we are evolved from apes. Well in apes, males are far more dominant than females, which is also the case for most, not all, but most species of mammals. Now if all other species of apes the males are more dominant than females, why do you think this is not also the case for human beings?

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to sissyshoefetish)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 10:28:02 AM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1757
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi
My family did not raise me in a girly way, I have in fact always been a tomgirl. When a childe my favorite toys where Transformers figurines, and I loved computer games. And even now as an adult I am not very girly. I am physically strong, I am aggressive and territorial. But no matter how many male qualities I have, I can see several more ways in which I am feminine. And I was raised to be just what I wanted to be, that I was a girl was not important, what was important was that I was me.


There was a really wonderful section on gender in child of our time. Couples were put in a room and children were dressed up randomly, so girls were often in boys clothes etc. The children were given to the couples, they had a big pile of toys by them, the children dressed as girls were given 'girly' toys and same with boys regardless of how much the children pulled and cried for other toys.

There are lots of studies like that which show that adults treat children differently based on what sex they are and their own perceptions. Another, shows how parents are rougher with boys than girls.

Problem is the nature/nurture argument is highly contended, no matter how many scientific arguments there are that say that sex denotes characteristics there will be the same number saying it is social.

I tend to think that there is a mix of both, but far more nurture than nature, unless some new borns were put in a box and let to grow up with no social stimulus whatsoever we can't prove it, indeed the times when it has happened nurture comes out more (I am thinking about the boy raised by wolves in that argument)

Sorry I have no clue what the rest of the thread is about, I only read your post and just wanted to say that

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgsh7u7upeA&annotation_id=annotation_282296&feature=iv

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 2:13:05 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 26040
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Camerius


Good job, tazzy.


I wish you well,

  Camerius



thank you Master

well wishes to you

tazzy


_____________________________

No body dies a virgin... life fucks everyone.

RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11

"There are no atheists getting blowjobs" ~Master Ron

+20 Heresy Points - Hard earned!

Duchess of Dissent 1

(in reply to Camerius)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 3:04:28 PM   
MasterAramis


Posts: 279
Joined: 7/29/2008
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

This is very true, but that casual reader would need to be already in touch with his/her own nature, already rejecting the unnatural societal conditioning most accept, already seeking something simpler, truer, more natural to intuit those buried, denied & repressed instincts.


Greetings Kimveri,

This I agree with. In honesty, I started with "Players" a few years ago as well as some others, but nothing in order. I learned much as it relates to the concepts, but I felt what I did learn was already inherently in my nature, but at the advice of some folks here, I decided to read from the beginning. I am up to book four and really trying to absorb what I feel are the key components of the books. I think when you pick a book or two, you miss the "setup" so to speak. So while I understand AnimusRex's statement:

quote:

I read two, and to be honest, was flipping pages towards the end.


I was actually doing that a little at the end of Priest Kings. I think John dragged that one out a bit. The first two I did not. I would suspect that there will be some of the books that will hold my attention better than some others.

Also I quickly saw a post from Tim regarding this thread where a reader may pick up a few books and get a distorted view. Many that I talk to believe the Gorean way of life is based on the Master and slave dynamic. Clearly if you start from the beginning you learn that it is not. Actually books 1-3 seem to be more about social justice than any other factor. If slavery were the key element here, I would think John would have made it the focus early on. So the reality is, I believe the advice was sound.

Anyway I enjoyed the dialog. It seemed relevant to my current situation.

Aramis

< Message edited by MasterAramis -- 1/15/2010 3:08:53 PM >

_____________________________

"He who would be a man must be a master. He who surrenders his mastery surrenders his manhood." - Players of Gor

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 5:36:36 PM   
Saffleur


Posts: 247
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Lenoir NC
Status: offline 		Tal Kimveri,

I am aware of what Trevelyan has stated on the term. I have no quarrel with Treyvelan.

I take the time to cultivate my responses. That includes research. Though, I did not find the words Angel posted from an of the books I own. I used googles book search. Wonderful and powerful feature. Very simple to use too. In either case, the references have been posted. I need not say more on the subject.

Furthermore, To think I would dismiss our word's simply because you are a woman is an arrogant and complete misunderstanding of who I am. I don't care if you wish to know either. Books and their misrepresentation of covers.

I won't reply further about the quote issue. This thread has a purpose. To help someone begin their steps into  Gorean life. If they come for asking help. I'll share the little knowledge I've gleaned from others and those that I've earned by myself.

I wish you well Kimveri,
Scott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saffleur
As for natural order, Kimveri was incorrect in her statement that the term "Natural Order" is never used. It is used quite a couple of times, at least once in Explorers and also in Guardsman, but I digress.


Got any references? Just one? Uhh-huh. It's not just something I made up...check what Trevelyan has to say on it HERE. Also, he shared this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan
The one slim difference, which makes me favor it, is that "order of nature" is used in the books.  Using the search capability, you can find ever single time Norman used the phrase, and see how he invariably explained it.
"Natural order" on the other hand, is never used in the books, which makes it slightly more open to individual interpretation and definition.


So, perhaps it's easy to call me incorrect, dismiss my statements out of hand since I am a woman....but do you intend to do the same with the word's of a man?

~K


_____________________________

When we see men of worth, we should think of equaling them; when we see men of a contrary character, we should turn inward and examine ourselves.

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean.&... - 1/15/2010 8:45:48 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6619
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online 		-FR-

How many words were just now devoted to whether something was conveyed with an adjective or a preposition?

If the books were in a different language, we might need a subforum for Gorology, like with Theology.

Did any profound difference in the interpretation of Scripture to emerge from this?

Or is it just living life fiercely, true to one's linguistic curiosities?

I've been trying to cut back on pedantism, myself.

No need to take up the slack, is there?



Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Saffleur)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2012
Collarchat.com is a member of the Free Speech Coalition
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.203