So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (Full Version)

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Gurlugon -> So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/10/2010 2:56:03 PM)

Hello all. Yes, I am a new to these ideals and have never read the books or really looked into it. In fact, I just had a crash course in the Gorean FAQ section and I think I understand the basic gist of things.

My reason for posting is really more of a learning venture for myself. And no, I don't want just one answer, as it is very obvious that Gor can be interpreted many different ways.

So, what's your take on the "Natural Order" of things? At first glance, from todays point of view, it automatically comes off as sexist and derogatory towards women. But as one reads on to find out that this isn't the case, that there are submissive men and dominent women, things become clearer.

Now I understand that there is more to being Gorean than just the role of the sexes, but I think it is the more crucial issue that people have not in understanding Gor, but in accepting it. So please, enlighten me.

Thanks.



Camerius -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/10/2010 3:31:40 PM)

quote:

Yes, I am a new to these ideals and have never read the books or really looked into it......So please, enlighten me.



Read the books, all of them, in sequel. That should enlighten you a bit more.


I wish you well and enjoy the reading,

  Camerius



nephandi -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/10/2010 4:42:57 PM)

Greetings

If you ask doctors and scientists you will get the answer that there are differences between men and woman. Ever read some popular self help books named Men are from Mars women are from Venus or some such? There you have another example. Women tend to think differently than men. The Gorean idea of natural order is that both men and women are most happy when those differences are acknowledged.

Now off course it is never as simple as that. While Goreans believe that men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive, there are clearly exceptions from that rule, there exist both dominant women and submissive men, and much debate exist in the Gorean community as to whatever such deviances from the norm should be tolerated. Personally I give a resounding yes to that. The Gorean lifestyle, if you cut away everything else is about living in tune with ones own nature, and how can one do that if one ignore it if it do not fit the norm?

But in most cases women are more submissive than men. Women evolved to be the caretakers, the nurturers, they raised the children, kept the home and tended the sick. Men where the hunters, the warriors and the leaders. They provided food and protection for the tribe.But in to day's society men and woman are desperately trying to be the same, instead of complimenting one another, men and women are at war, men no longer able to be men without scorn and women no longer able to be women, we are all becoming a huge, sexless, unhappy mann. The Gorean lifestyle is about men reclaiming their heritage as men, and women being allowed to be feminine.

I wish you well



Kimveri -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/10/2010 5:16:10 PM)

~FR~

No where in the whole series does the term "Natural Order" arise....not once.

What you will encounter, many times, is the phrase "order of nature". It's true that most times you see that phrase - "order of nature" - it is referring to an interaction between a man & a woman. That does not mean the phrase is limited to only male/female interactions.

One of the best references to male slaves being considered "natural" on Gor, albeit rare, should also illustrate what I'm pointing out here:

quote:

"They are not masculine, are they?" she inquired. "I find masculinity so offensive and vulgar." she said.
"You need have no fear," he said. "They have been selected for their nature, which is that to be a woman's slave."~pg132Witness


It is the nature of some few to be readily enslaved. I would posit that some 2% are likely to thrive when enslaved. The only manner in which gender impacts that is in the demographics. More females (2.5% in the novels) than males (something less than .25% in the novels) will thrive in the condition of slavery.

Bottom line? Goreans believe it is just as natural for that rare male to be a slave as it is for the female to be a slave. In fact, Goreans do not even seem surprised that such hierarchies exist in populations/situations where gender is irrelevant: i.e. in a warring male group there will be those who naturally take charge & those who naturally follow.

Nature displays this all around us in our daily lives. To think it is something unique to the fictional societies of Gor is laughable.....at best.

~Kimveri



AnimusRex -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/10/2010 6:10:55 PM)

I suppose every thread needs a contrary viewpoint, so here is mine. While I wouldn't discourage someone from reading all 26 novels, in order, I am not of the opinion that it is necessary in order to grasp the meaning. I am also a Christian, but I haven't read the Bible cover to cover. I just skimmed it for the hot parts.

I say this especially because the books are so repetitive; I read two, and to be honest, was flipping pages towards the end. I wouldn't be the first person who suspects that the author was paid by the word in the later ones.

I wouldn't want this to be interpreted as a slam against Gor; its just that if you can't get a sense of the Gorean worldview after a couple or three of the books, another 23 or so won't be any more enlightening.

Like any work of fiction, the reader approaches it with his own worldview, and comes away with his own unique interpretation.



kisshou -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/10/2010 6:57:15 PM)

Greetings ,

my take on the "natural order" is that there is a sliding scale for everything and people fall somewhere along it.

well wishes
kisshou



Kimveri -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/10/2010 7:23:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
I say this especially because the books are so repetitive; I read two, and to be honest, was flipping pages towards the end.
{...}

its just that if you can't get a sense of the Gorean worldview after a couple or three of the books, another 23 or so won't be any more enlightening.


The only problem with selecting a "couple or three" of the books, AnimusRex, is that one can miss the whole process of discarding conditioniing, uncovering nature, discovering one's own nature & the struggle to mesh all that with a very different (almost diametrically so) culture.

THAT is likely to give the very best over-view of the philosophy & it's derivative morality....which is what one needs to implement in daily living...if one elects to be Gorean.

That said, I do agree that a perceptive person might read 15 or so books & likely "get it"....but I happen to think that people that perceptive are damned uncommon... ;-/

YMMV

~Kimveri



Kimveri -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/10/2010 7:24:16 PM)

Elegantly stated, kisshou love!

My warmest regards to you & your master!

~Kimveri



AnimusRex -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/10/2010 9:43:14 PM)

Kimveri-

I don't disagree necessarily- as with many things, the basics of Gor can be learned quickly, but one can spend a lifetime studying its deeper meanings.

My Catholic upbringing probably colors my thinking- most Catholics never read the Bible, or study theology; our understanding comes from our daily interaction with others, and occasional instruction from others who do study.

I would agree that those who study Gor and read all 26 books and ponder studiously the intricacies do have a different, deeper understanding of it all.

But I wouldn't think that something that purports to reveal a true nature of ourselves would be inaccessible to the casual reader- that would turn it into some sort of cultish mystery, alien to our natures. I would think that there should be some sort of intuitive understanding, a sense of rightness that is accessible without too much study.



Kimveri -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/10/2010 10:20:09 PM)

Hello, AnimusRex,

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
But I wouldn't think that something that purports to reveal a true nature of ourselves would be inaccessible to the casual reader- that would turn it into some sort of cultish mystery, alien to our natures. I would think that there should be some sort of intuitive understanding, a sense of rightness that is accessible without too much study.


This is very true, but that casual reader would need to be already in touch with his/her own nature, already rejecting the unnatural societal conditioning most accept, already seeking something simpler, truer, more natural to intuit those buried, denied & repressed instincts. That 'casual reader' would have to be ...uncommonly perceptive. ;-)

It's not the philosophy that's hard to grasp at all....it's the scraping off of the barnacles on our own eyes so that we can actually SEE these simplicities that's so damn tough.

...& I also would hate to try to narrow it down to a few books.....I can't imagine leaving out the bloody giants.....the arrow of war.....the sharing of paga with an enemy....the Ubara wandering the Northern Forests.....the demise(??) of Pa'Kur....the redemption of Callimachus.....the enlightenment of Jason....I mean....

...WHICH three books??

~Kimveri



nephandi -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/11/2010 4:55:01 AM)

Greetings Kimveri I hope you are well.

I have not said that it is not natural for a male slave or a or a dominant female. In fact I have said the opposite and in all my time on this forum I have always spoken in favor of nature being more diverse. And in fact, while I consider myself Gorean, my biggest gripe with the lifestyle as a whole is how many, but definitely not all tend to generalize. I think what is natural to be, what is natural for an individual, however I think that it is more often natural for a woman to be submissive, than a male.

Also when I say submissive, I do not mean slavery. Like I have said several times on the forum, saying that most women are more submissive than most men, do not equal saying that most women would like to be slaves. There is a difference between wanting a leader and a protector, than wanting a Master, and definitely a difference between following a man as the head of the house and having no say in ones life as a slave. Submissiveness do not equal wishing to be a slave.

Off course most of the philosophy or ideas in the Gor books are collected from various societies, ancient nations, various schools or philosophy and even other works of fiction. It is like a good pizza. The ingredients are hardly unique to that pizza, the onions and sweet corn and garlic flavored meat balls are nothing new. But just like with a good and well composed pizza, the various parts are put together into a very interesting and idea provoking mix.

I wish you well



Kimveri -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/11/2010 6:19:14 AM)

Mornin', Nephandi!

quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi
It is like a good pizza. The ingredients are hardly unique to that pizza, the onions and sweet corn and garlic flavored meat balls are nothing new.


You had me nodding along, in complete agreement with you right up to this point....sweet corn?....on pizza??

[8D]

Take care,

~Kimveri

{edited to add}
...I went back to see why you directed this to me, since we agreew so closely & I saw that my initial post here....although marked as a fast reply ~FR~ ....actually came up as in reply to you. That was merely a matter of timing, Nephandi, I assure you. My initial post here was directed solely at the OP.



nephandi -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/11/2010 6:55:17 AM)

Greetings

quote:


You had me nodding along, in complete agreement with you right up to this point....sweet corn?....on pizza??


I have sweet corn on everything, I even eat them right out of the box. It drives Aswad crazy. :P

quote:

{edited to add}
...I went back to see why you directed this to me, since we agreew so closely & I saw that my initial post here....although marked as a fast reply ~FR~ ....actually came up as in reply to you. That was merely a matter of timing, Nephandi, I assure you. My initial post here was directed solely at the OP.


Everything is so much clearer now. I misunderstood, my bad. I am sorry.

Be Well



Musicmystery -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/11/2010 8:25:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

I suppose every thread needs a contrary viewpoint, so here is mine. While I wouldn't discourage someone from reading all 26 novels, in order, I am not of the opinion that it is necessary in order to grasp the meaning. I am also a Christian, but I haven't read the Bible cover to cover. I just skimmed it for the hot parts.

I say this especially because the books are so repetitive; I read two, and to be honest, was flipping pages towards the end. I wouldn't be the first person who suspects that the author was paid by the word in the later ones.

I wouldn't want this to be interpreted as a slam against Gor; its just that if you can't get a sense of the Gorean worldview after a couple or three of the books, another 23 or so won't be any more enlightening.

Like any work of fiction, the reader approaches it with his own worldview, and comes away with his own unique interpretation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Kimveri-

I don't disagree necessarily- as with many things, the basics of Gor can be learned quickly, but one can spend a lifetime studying its deeper meanings.

My Catholic upbringing probably colors my thinking- most Catholics never read the Bible, or study theology; our understanding comes from our daily interaction with others, and occasional instruction from others who do study.

I would agree that those who study Gor and read all 26 books and ponder studiously the intricacies do have a different, deeper understanding of it all.

But I wouldn't think that something that purports to reveal a true nature of ourselves would be inaccessible to the casual reader- that would turn it into some sort of cultish mystery, alien to our natures. I would think that there should be some sort of intuitive understanding, a sense of rightness that is accessible without too much study.


Hi Animus,

Well, that last bit helps me see where you're going with this. And I can agree to the point that it's not a deep mystical undertaking. I even started a thread once about deifying it as "The Philosophy," which drew a fair amount of strenuous disagreement. I see it more as patterns emerging from a close look at our society and the choices we make albeit often counterproductive to our natures and better well-being and happiness.

I can also agree that Norman is never going to be mistaken for one of our better authors. It is repetitive, and at times deliberately arcane and pretentious in word choice and sentence construction. It's something we have to read past for the ideas presented and illustrated. The reader needs to work at it a bit.

But I most definitely cannot agree that reading 2-3 books will give anyone a good picture--at best, a taste, and a completely mistaken view of, yes, "the philosophy." We actually see that here quite a bit--someone goes off on a position and clearly is unfamiliar with other books addressing that topic.

Tarl and others go through a progression. To read only Tarnsman, Outlaw and Priest-Kings and see Tarl as the epitome is to not understand "Gorean" at all. That takes at least through Maurauders.

Many have read only Slave Girl, Kajira and Dancer. It shows. These folks have a very distorted view.

What if someone read only Explorers, Savages, and Blood Brothers? A series of primitive cultural anthropology?

Or later works--a series about a war between Cos and Ar?

Yeah, it's a sci fi series that started with a book, caught on, and turned into churning out a book a year for a while. And sure, there's a bit of searching for something else to write about. And absolutely, quality varies widely. Among my impressions upon first seeing Blood Brothers was "this is a much better written novel than many of the others."

So for those interested in following through, it takes some work and patience. For those picking and choosing a book here, a book there, they'll both miss the serial events that inform each subsequent book, as well as go about spouting opinions about Gor, using the books to justify their views, much as Christians cite the Bible to support their social/political opinions without actually troubling to read the damn thing [Trust me--NO ONE who has read the entire Bible would claim to live by it]--and being absolutely incorrect, probably while ranting about how they get it and the rest of us can't see that. Seems to go around.

Live well,

Tim


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

Hello, AnimusRex,

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
But I wouldn't think that something that purports to reveal a true nature of ourselves would be inaccessible to the casual reader- that would turn it into some sort of cultish mystery, alien to our natures. I would think that there should be some sort of intuitive understanding, a sense of rightness that is accessible without too much study.


This is very true, but that casual reader would need to be already in touch with his/her own nature, already rejecting the unnatural societal conditioning most accept, already seeking something simpler, truer, more natural to intuit those buried, denied & repressed instincts. That 'casual reader' would have to be ...uncommonly perceptive. ;-)

It's not the philosophy that's hard to grasp at all....it's the scraping off of the barnacles on our own eyes so that we can actually SEE these simplicities that's so damn tough.

...& I also would hate to try to narrow it down to a few books.....I can't imagine leaving out the bloody giants.....the arrow of war.....the sharing of paga with an enemy....the Ubara wandering the Northern Forests.....the demise(??) of Pa'Kur....the redemption of Callimachus.....the enlightenment of Jason....I mean....

...WHICH three books??

~Kimveri


I agree with this. Good point.

Tim





Kimveri -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/11/2010 8:48:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
So for those interested in following through, it takes some work and patience.


This is true of living a Gorean life too, not just reading the books. ;-/

In fact, I've often wondered if Norman made reading the series so tedious & difficult to "prep" us for how it'd be to apply this stuff to reality!
Some days, I want to scream "I am not a SAME!" to the herds abounding! [sm=anger.gif]

~K



nephandi -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/11/2010 9:07:41 AM)

Greetings

I may be mistaken here, but I remember someone saying that the very repett repeti repetitive way that the Gor books are written are a literary method, though one seldom used. Now whatever or not Norman have just wanted to use this method, and either the method is rather poor and there is a reason why it is not much used or Norman is just not very good at it. Off course it can be that he just want to to work hard to get trhough the books.

I wish you well



Kimveri -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/11/2010 9:11:26 AM)

Hello, Nephandi,

Actually, that sort of repetitious lecturing is a teaching method. Since Lange is a professor at a university, it makes sense to me that he'd use such a method. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it translated well to literary use. ;-D

~K




nephandi -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/11/2010 9:17:39 AM)

Greetings

Ah, so that is what it is. No it get a bit tedious when reading a book, though it do give the Gor books a rather unique feel to them. It is like when you boot up a Comandore  64 or in my case my Comandore 128. You have to wait forever for the games to load, the games have poor graphics compared to even the Nes and other early systems. But when you hear that ugly takkititakkiti sound of the discs loading you know there is nothing quite like it and you would not want to be without it either. Or at least that is how I see it.

I wish you well



Gurlugon -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/11/2010 10:36:03 AM)

Hello again; I haven't read all of your comments, but from what I gather, the majority of you want me to read the books.

Well I'm unemployed and broke. That's why I came to this community forum to ask, knowing that the majority of you guys aren't morons, instead of trying google.

I'm not going to say I have a complete understanding of the subject, but I'm starting to grasp it a little tighter thanks to your comments.

Thanks all.



nephandi -> RE: So I've discovered this thing called "Gorean." (1/11/2010 12:20:38 PM)

Greetings

The best would be for you the read the books. The best way to learn about any lifestyle is to learn about it's roots. However you can learn allot from reading the various posts on this forum, just click your way to the first page of the forum and read your way forward, there are also good web pages like the Gorean Voice a Gorean online magazine which will provide you with allot of information.

And if you find the lifestyle interesting you can get the books really cheap second hand on Amazon, and you do not need to buy all at once. If you manage to save up five bucks over a month you could probably get one of the books including shipping for that if you live in USA, perhaps even for less.

I wish you well



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