Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (Full Version)

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barelynangel -> Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/11/2010 8:30:57 AM)

This question popped in my head the other day when i read the phrase:

This is not a way to live, this is a way to die. 

I am curious as to what Goreans believe -- do Goreans seek to live or seek to die?  Why do you believe such.

angel



nephandi -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/11/2010 8:46:48 AM)

Greetings

I am a transhumanist. I seek to extend my life beyond the normal human maximum. I seek to live. If at all possible without sacrificing all that I am, I seek to live. I have no use of death, my goal is to stay alive, forever if I can.

I wish you well



Musicmystery -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/11/2010 8:57:45 AM)

quote:

I have no use of death, my goal is to stay alive, forever if I can.


There's not a thing Gorean about this, however.

Death is part of life. Our society's tendency to deny and/or to fear death is among our hangups. Other, more "primitive" societies, don't do this--they live with death on their shoulders, in awareness, just as several warrior cultures around the globe.

No need to rush to it either. But prolong it, no matter what? What of quality of life? I keep myself in good shape not to live forever, but to live my life better and more fully--today and everyday.

If death were not part of life, life would be a far cheaper commodity.

Or put another way....


That Time Of Year Thou Mayst In Me Behold
William Shakespeare

That time of year thou mayst in me behold
When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang
Upon those boughs which shake against the cold,
Bare ruined choirs, where late the sweet birds sang.
In me thou see'st the twilight of such day
As after sunset fadeth in the west;
Which by and by black night doth take away,
Death's second self, that seals up all in rest.
In me thou see'st the glowing of such fire,
That on the ashes of his youth doth lie,
As the deathbed whereon it must expire,
Consumed with that which it was nourished by.
This thou perceiv'st, which makes thy love more strong,
To love that well which thou must leave ere long.



nephandi -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/11/2010 9:20:50 AM)

Greetings

I do not agree, the most basic instinct any living being have is the instinct to survive. It comes before consciousness, it comes before about anything else, hell even things with no instincts or mind at all like plants are designed to do whatever it takes to survive. I would say that to save of death and try to survive as long as possible is the most natural thing in the world for any living being.

I wish you well



barelynangel -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/11/2010 11:02:00 AM)

Hi Tim and Nephandi and all,

The phrase states that "This is not a way to live, this is a way to die."   I understand the conscious decision to want to live, but do the actions of a person adhere to wanting to live.  For example, A thrill seeker constantly seeks dangerous stunts that can in fact cause his death.  Yet he still does them.  Is he seeking like or death?   The most basic of societal issues in our world that people do stuff daily that they know is harmful to them, yet they continue - eating unhealthy, not being or attempting to be in healthy shape, smoking, doing drugs, etc.  Are they seeking to live or die? Did warriors in the series seek to live or die?  Did assassins?  The general free person?

There is so much that while consciously you say i want to live for ever, yet the very actions you take in your life (you is general) as a Gorean may in fact be a way to die rather than live. 

Nephandi you speak of instinct, yet that instinct is very low frequency unless in a situation where death is imminent rather than subjectory.   That is not an every day concept people live with ignited. 

All of this made me wonder if Goreans seek to live or die.  Not wanting but seeking.  Does an individual Gorean's actions show what they are seeking more than their conscious statement?  Is there a concept that exists among Goreans more so than not as to whether seeking to live or die is what drives them?

angel



nephandi -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/11/2010 12:39:43 PM)

Greetings

quote:

I understand the conscious decision to want to live, but do the actions of a person adhere to wanting to live.  For example, A thrill seeker constantly seeks dangerous stunts that can in fact cause his death.  Yet he still does them.


I think perhaps that it is not enough for the body to live, the mind must be alive to, and for a thrill seeker, what he or she do causes them to live, for while their bodies might live if they stayed in their homes safe, it is doing the things they love which make them alive. It is not a death wish, not from most I know who are thrill seekers, but more a wish to feel alive.

quote:

The most basic of societal issues in our world that people do stuff daily that they know is harmful to them, yet they continue - eating unhealthy, not being or attempting to be in healthy shape, smoking, doing drugs, etc.  Are they seeking to live or die? Did warriors in the series seek to live or die?  Did assassins?  The general free person?


I am overweight. I know it is bad for me, but sometimes, the joy of eating a bag of chocolate is the only thing which get me through a depression. That is not a wish to die, it is a bad habit and finding a way to cope.

I do not think a warrior go into combat wishing to die, but he is willing to die to honor his obligations or to fight for what he believe in. I do not think that any of the characters in the books, save I think there was one suicide or do I remember that wrong? wish to die. But many of them was willing to die for what they believed in or to safe keep their freedom. 

Being willing to die for some goal or cause or obligation is not the same as wishing to die. There is a story I was told of a Martial Artist, he tried to live up to the idea that a warrior had to live with death as his companion. So every night he suspended his katana over his sleeping mat by a thin tread, if the tread broke the sword would plummet down and kill the warrior. One day his teacher found out about this and he told the warrior that he was wrong, a warrior should not welcome death and play with it like he did, but be willing to accept it if it came.

quote:

There is so much that while consciously you say i want to live for ever, yet the very actions you take in your life (you is general) as a Gorean may in fact be a way to die rather than live.


Yes, but if I locked myself in my bedroom, eating nothing but the most healthy keeping myself away from every danger and every joy of life, perhaps my body would live longer, but I would already be dead. I wish to live forever, but as who I am and enjoying life, if that means taking a risk or an unhealthy choice here and there, so be it. I am alive so that I can live, not so that I can watch life.

quote:

Nephandi you speak of instinct, yet that instinct is very low frequency unless in a situation where death is imminent rather than subjectory.   That is not an every day concept people live with ignited.


Actually I think it is. I do not know about other pepole but I feel the call of my instincts every day of my life. It is just that instinct is so basic that my self preservation instinct do not really kick in an warm me about the danger of a candy bar. But the instincts are always there under my intellect, under my manners and words.

I wish you well



barelynangel -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/11/2010 12:52:47 PM)

Nephandi, i think you are using wish and seek interchangeably and i am thinking of them separate and distinct one conscious one maybe unconconscious. 

There is no wrong or right answer, i am just curious how Goreans view such a thing.

angel



nephandi -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/11/2010 2:01:10 PM)

Greetings

Is not what one wish for what one also seek?

Anyway to make my answer very short then. I do not seek death, nor do I know any Goreans that as far as I know seek death, nor do I think the characters in the books seek death. But most Gorean would be willing to die if they had to to keep their honor. But being willing to die and seeking death is two very different things.

Interesting topic though. :D

I wish you well



XaviersXian -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/11/2010 2:09:14 PM)

Hello everyone,

hi angel,

I think that the Gorean philosophy as a whole is about life affirmation.  There are many incidences in the books where the characters relish their lives, and strive to give that same joy in life to the other people and living creatures and entities around them.  I think that living life with a conscious, almost innocent joy, and living as if every day is your last are good things to take from the books.

I think my views are somewhat coloured by the fact I was raised within an environment that extolled the same general values as the books; when my family made the time to see each other, whether for a formal occasion like christmas, or just a casual cup of tea and a few chocolate biscuits on a plate, there was always much love, and laughter, and joy at seeing each other.  I had one of the (rare?) families that never had a fight at christmas, or any other festive time.  We always saw the joy and fortune in being able to meet, and I think, for me, because of various events, both good and bad, that joy has only intensified over the years.

I wish you well.



Rule -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/14/2010 2:12:28 AM)

Neurophysiological research has shown that when experiencing a little bit of stress, the least nerve cells die. That is one reason why car drivers sometimes speed.

I was hit by a car when I was seven and spent nine weeks in the hospital with a concussion (extended because I got pneumonia in the hospital); this also for a dozen years had as a consequence extreme headaches (migraines) in certain circumstances. It was during this time in the hospital that I, an atheist, did a GREAT WISH - and the Divine, which does not care whether anyone is convinced of its existence or not, obliged and unbeknownst to me events to ensure my future fate were set in motion.

Two years later I 'died', or rather essential parts of my mind died, as 'dying' was a requirement for my wish to be granted. It was dismal to wake up in a hospital bed and to realize that I was dead and to observe the weird fact that my body still breathed and that my heart still beat. I told no-one about my death. I considered to suicide, but I had already chosen to live the day before - not for my sake, but for the sake of my family. I chose again to live - again not for my sake, but for the sake of my family, who did not know that I had already died. In any case I was in such a bad shape that I expected to not live beyond twenty. I have also often thought that I would have done better to have chosen for suicide, for being crazy I have done great harm to others. But then again, some things must be and I am who and what I am because of my experiences.

I never was a hero before, but I recall being courageous. 'Death' put an end to that. As a consequence of my 'death' I lacked my courage and became an extreme coward. Any physical fight I lost and will lose; I was never a fighter anyway.

Having 'died', and despite expecting to experience the true death within a decade, I soon determined not to want to experience death again. So a couple of years later I changed my school and started on a path to discover immortality. I think that I have been straying from that path for the past 23 years, unfortunately.

About fifteen years ago I got hit by another car and walked with difficulty and pain for at least a month. My door key in my back pocket was bent at an angle of 90 degrees. I have still no idea what the spiritual cause of that hit was. [&:]

Since the mid seventies my health has been deteriorating because of the herpes virus. I think that I had a heart attack when I was seventeen. This may also have been necessary to grant my wish.

Last week when helping a neighbor to carry a small two seater bank, I got faint of heart and had to take a break for a couple of minutes.

I have no idea how much life remains for me. Ever since I 'died' at age nine, I have lived with death and with the imminent prospect of death. Yet I am determined to carry on, to never surrender, to never give up. If only I had not made such a mess of my life and of my GREAT WISH. But as long as there is a conscious thought in me, there is a chance, however small, that unlike King Canut I may turn the tide and make up for my wrong doings and mistakes and to honor my vow in my part of my GREAT WISH.



Rule -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/14/2010 2:24:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi
I am overweight. I know it is bad for me, but sometimes, the joy of eating a bag of chocolate is the only thing which get me through a depression.

No, it is not. If my comprehension of your mind is accurate, then I expect that though you may lack willpower, you do have immense determination. Your determination can get you through a depression. Bite the bullet!



Naturallurker -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/14/2010 4:33:49 AM)

General reply to no one in particular.

I see no reason why Goreans should not fall prey to the counter intuitive aspects of a death drive, what Freud called "Todestrieb", sometimes called Thanatos (remind any one of anyone?), in the same way as any other person. To achieve great things great risks are often required, I suspect that the Gorean mindset (primarily that of the free) is that of one prepared to risk in order to stand above the herd. While co-incidentally the prevalence of past trauma in many who identify as having a slave nature may also play into Freud's theory of repetition compulsion.



nephandi -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/15/2010 3:24:21 AM)

Greetings

quote:

No, it is not. If my comprehension of your mind is accurate, then I expect that though you may lack willpower, you do have immense determination. Your determination can get you through a depression. Bite the bullet!


Yes my determination can get me through a depression. And I do make a choice to self medicate with chocolate. But for now, for good or bad it have been the choice I have made. Perhaps that is because of cowardice, or perhaps it is a choice based on the fact that I would rather  spend my energy on my studies and what I appreciate in my life than fighting the depression. Perhaps a bit of both. Eating chocolate is a mistake, but it is a mistake I choose to make.

I wish you well



nephandi -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/15/2010 3:33:54 AM)

Greetings

quote:

I see no reason why Goreans should not fall prey to the counter intuitive aspects of a death drive, what Freud called "Todestrieb", sometimes called Thanatos (remind any one of anyone?), in the same way as any other person. To achieve great things great risks are often required, I suspect that the Gorean mindset (primarily that of the free) is that of one prepared to risk in order to stand above the herd. While co-incidentally the prevalence of past trauma in many who identify as having a slave nature may also play into Freud's theory of repetition compulsion.


I think there is a huge difference between seeking death, wishing to die, and being willing to risk death for something important. I have an old great aunt. Some years ago she had a heart attack, and at 91 years old and with a weakened heart, her health is not perfect. Now she own a vacation cabin in a forested area by a lave. A wonderful place. Now every year my great aunt spend her summers there. Now her son, my mother's cousin worried for his mother, worried that this old lady, all alone in a cabin in the woods, what if she had another heart attack *knock on wood* her chances of survival would be far less if that should happen in her cabin than in her apartment which have much shorter way to the hospital and where can can cry out for help. My mother answered that for my great aunt, living life to the fullest, spending her summers in the cabin she loved, that is what is important to her, and if my great aunt should die doing what she loved, that would be better than if she lived for many, many years more thinking of nothing but what is safe. My grand aunt do not seek death, from all I know about her she love to be alive, but she is willing to risk death to do the things she love in life.

Seeking death and being willing to risk death is to very different concepts. One of them is wanting out of this life, the other is just other words for freedom.

I wish you well



Naturallurker -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/15/2010 4:47:00 AM)

Greetings Nephandi,
you have mentioned your grandmother in the past, so I am aware of your use of her as an anecdote, thank you.

Todestrieb is much more than suicidal tendency, as far as Freud is concerned  the death  is an ontological a priori condition within all human beings. The  death drive is (for Freud) as obvious or as conspicuous as Eros its counter part. Ying and yang. There is no reason, as I said previously why, such a condition of humanity, would not therefore be as inherent in those following a Gorean  philosophy or mind set or even simply Gorean ephemeral activity as in any other section of human society.

In addition, the lust for life and drive towards making one's mark on the world or within one's own circle can, and I suggest very often is, a part of striving towards leaving a memory of ourselves in the world directly attributable to our acceptance of death as inevitable(and perhaps our fixation on it). I would also suggest that those who actively seek to extend their lives are doing so as a direct result of the awareness that death is waiting open mouthed to swallow them up. In order to seek immortality one must be aware of one's mortality. The achievements be they personal, interpersonal or within a wider context, made by men, are our momento mori.

Naturally there are and always will be those who choose to dismiss Freud, and argue that since in evolutionary terms Todestrieb appears counter evolutionary is is nothing more than a wild speculation by Freud.

IWYW



nephandi -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/15/2010 6:14:15 AM)

Greetings

I know about the death drive, among those interested in Spiritual ways to life extension elimination the death drive in one self is one of the methods used. Linda Goodman, a new age writer went to far as to speculate that the reason we grow old and die is that we deep down want to, and that eliminating this want eliminates aging.

Also I think this is the reason why many get so aggressive when pepole mention they are into life extension. I have had my life threatened twice for wanting to extend my life beyond the human norm. it is almost like if pepole get offended by the mere idea that some do not want to die, that some hold death so secret that even mentioning such things becomes blasphemy.

quote:

you have mentioned your grandmother in the past, so I am aware of your use of her as an anecdote, thank you.


Forgive me but she is my grand aunt, not my grandmother.

Now the death drive be as it may. I still hold that a lust for life and the instinct to live and stay alive is more natural than a wish to die.

quote:

I would also suggest that those who actively seek to extend their lives are doing so as a direct result of the awareness that death is waiting open mouthed to swallow them up. In order to seek immortality one must be aware of one's mortality.


Off course, unless one know something is broken, one would not know to go out and fix it. One have to be aware of a problem before one seek to solve it.

quote:

Naturally there are and always will be those who choose to dismiss Freud, and argue that since in evolutionary terms Todestrieb appears counter evolutionary is is nothing more than a wild speculation by Freud.


I must admit that I am not very much of a Freud fan. The man was huge, he put psychology and the study of the mind on the map, but to my mind his ideas are to sweepingly generalistic, over simplified and dated. Not that there are no value in them, but simply I think human beings are more complex than all mental problems stemming from a desire to have sex with one of one's parents and kill the other. (Yes I am awere that there is more the Fraudian psycology than that. But I hold more to Jung's less generalistic view's than Fraud.)

I wish you well



Naturallurker -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/15/2010 6:51:39 AM)

Greetings Nephandi

quote:

I know about the death drive,

and yet you generalised Todestrieb to little more than
quote:

seeking death, wishing to die

Interesting.
quote:

among those interested in Spiritual ways to life extension elimination the death drive in one self is one of the methods used. Linda Goodman, a new age writer went to far as to speculate that the reason we grow old and die is that we deep down want to, and that eliminating this want eliminates aging.

I am unfamiliar with Linda Goodman, though from what you have said here she seems merely to be echoing a small part of Freud's argument.

quote:


Forgive me but she is my grand aunt, not my grandmother.

My apologies for mis-assigning your relationship.

quote:

Now the death drive be as it may. I still hold that a lust for life and the instinct to live and stay alive is more natural than a wish to die
as you are entitled to believe. However, what you are speaking of here is a conscious wish, which is not what Freud is addressing. I tend to see this as generalising and simplifying Freud's hypothesis to such a degree as to create a conclusion that bears little relation to his hypothesis and there fore bears little relationship to my original statement.

IWYW







ZeIda -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/15/2010 7:24:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

I have had my life threatened twice for wanting to extend my life beyond the human norm.


Can you please expand on the circumstances in which this happened?



nephandi -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/15/2010 9:47:29 AM)

Greetings

quote:

Can you please expand on the circumstances in which this happened?


One once was a man associated with my first Coven, I am Pagan. I told him of my views and he told me he would kill me unless I stopped my attempts. Needless to say I had nothing more to do with that man.

The second time was a friend I visited, I spoke to her about being involved in life extension and she said she wanted to kill me as a mercy just in case I could pull it off.

In neither case was I very worried, I was more angry as no attempts where made, just threats and I am fully capable of defending myself. But it was uncomfortable, especially since both threats have come from pepole I believed friends who turned against me when I spoke to them about my interests. Now I am very open about it instead so I do not become friends with pepole who take such offense at life extension.

I wish you well.



nephandi -> RE: Do Goreans seek to live or seek to die? (1/15/2010 9:53:32 AM)

Greetings

quote:


I am unfamiliar with Linda Goodman, though from what you have said here she seems merely to be echoing a small part of Freud's argument.


From what I have read Miss Goodman was  more a new ager than a psychologist so that do not surprise me. I mealy believed her ideas to be an interesting side comment.

quote:

as you are entitled to believe. However, what you are speaking of here is a conscious wish, which is not what Freud is addressing.


Is not instincts just as deep and subconscious as any other part of our minds? In fact they are the most basic of emotions which we share with animals, one of the most basic building blocks of our minds. Now a wish do not need to be conscious either, so when I say wish to die, I do not mean like in having considered and consciously come up with the wish.

I wish you well



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