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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons


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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 6:25:52 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6618
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Tal Unbuilder,

From an outside perspective looking in, as with BitaTrouble, it is an accurate enough term, even though the implication may well be "less than human."

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 6:50:38 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

I loved you post ishy, and I agree with most of it.

This debate or rather a version of it have raged in the occult community for years. Some orders enforces a strict hierarchy while others have a free for all, and they clash. Order like for example the OTO have a strict social ladder with the underlings basically being at the mercy of those above them in rank, while for example most Wiccan traditions have very loose leadership and that is about it. Now I do not really know which model works the best, but I can say as much that the OTO version is the one I personally like best, it is more orderned.

Now in the Gor books there are many social ranks. The Castes where in various rank in comparision to one another, accoplishment and/or wealth could make a person rise or fall in social rank. A rich woman from the Cast of Scribes who told a man from the Cast of Beggars to get out of her way would be obeyed. However and here comes the rub, no matter how low in rank a free man or woman was, or no matter how wealthy a household or how pampered a slave, the slave was always lower in rank, even to the most simple beggar. This basically becouse the beggar was free to take responsibility for his or her own life, the slave was mearly property. Much like no matter how much I and Aswad love our little cat Maude, and she probably eat better than many pepole, and she is loved and pampered, but in society, she is still just a cat, property.

But it seams I am rambeling more than making an inteligent post. So I think I shall leave it with I like your post and agree with most of it and good eveing to you and your Master.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 6:55:21 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Okay, i may completely go off what you were really asking if i do i am sorry. I have been trying to formulate my thoughts on this most of today.

Status -- does it have pros and cons to Goreans. I would say for many no. Why do i say this. Because i really don't believe most Goreans WANT to actknowledge the concept of a social slave status. Free status is simply in my mind people. Yep. PEOPLE are the social status of Free to me in Gor. What are pros of this for Goreans. Well, definitely. Free has no social concept except what they make of it among THEMSELVES. I don't see any cons for Goreans having a Free status. Hell of it all Free status is the easiest to exist because it simply is people. It exists of whatever the Free make of it. Its the joy of being a person who is free, you create your own pros and cons and so does the next person and the next person and within the SOCIETY that is Free things form the structure of Gorean Free.

Now here is where people tend to steer away from acknoledging the actuality -- slave status.

Slaves on Gor are not a concept of "people." They are live stock, animals, beasts within the society of Free. Now why do i say Free instead of Goreans? Because i don't believe slave status is there for ANY OTHER REASON but to distinguish the differentiation of being a slave versus being a Free Person FOR THE SLAVE. This status to me clearly defines the animal nature of slaves. And its clearly defined -- its a woman who is actually mastered and has a declaration of being owned by a Man.

Are there pros to this status being understood among GOreans -- yes and no or maybe i should say its simply n/a to Gorean free. Many people owners and slaves alike don't like acknowledging the actual status their slave is to EVERY OTHER FREE PERSON IN THE WORLD. Now notice i didn't say Gorean Free person. The fact of the matter is -- if a woman is a slave it means she is mastered and owned by someone the acknowledgment is there and the slavery is alive and well. This means that she is an animal among FREE. PERIOD. There is no ifs, ands, buts. There isn't any well my master doesn't respect him or see him as Gorean etc etc. Most people don't LIKE the idea that the woman they fuck and live with is seen my most people as a slave. IT makes them itchy. So they place buts, and ifs, and what ifs to distort the idea of slave.

So what are the pros of this for Goreans -- well if people actually acknowledge it, the only real pro i see are women who more fully understand being a slave, her status among Free. Its not a comfortable position for most women who have grown up in our societies, to be seen as an animal instead of the intelligent, sophisticated, sexual slut woman of the world she has seen herself as and others too.

Cons of this for Gorean -- I think it scares the shit out of most. I don't think MOST actually focus on this status so to speak, they sorta do end runs around the actuality and focus only on Gorean Free, so a woman can still pretend she is walks among Free as a free person. I mean what the hell what people know won't hurt them yes? The problem is its not for others, its for the slave. Its not FOR the free its for the slave.

All in all, status for slaves is not about protocols, its an understanding that you no longer exist among people AS a person of merit. You are now simply a slave, your value only exists within the value your Master assigns you in comparison to the cost it costs to keep you. To everyone else, you are simply a slave.

So basically, Free and slave are two very distinct concept.... one is based on society and people and the other is animal.

However, they are social statuses that can change. A Free person can definitely become a slave and visa versa. People want to believe the social status is based upon WANTS of a person rather than the actuality of their SITUATION. You can't make someone a slave when they actually arnt owned and mastered. You can't make someone Free who has no self-determination or autonomy. Status does matter. Status determines which side you preside on - people side or animal.

Free status is general society it has all of the good, bad, and ugly.

slave status is sinple -- animal.

The biggest con i see is most people are scared to death of the actuality of slave, Its not about protocols or such its about actually acknowledging to yourself that because you are slave of a Gorean, anyone who is Free is above you. That is a scary acknowlegment to for both slaves and their owners to make. Its not what we learned in the fairy tale books. Even within a lot of Gorean relationships you see the distinguishing between GOREAN FREE and other free. Many people simply can't bring themselves to fully understand the consequence of being a slave to a Man -- its the NOT fun part.

I don't know if this makes sense. If it were Gor, there would be no distinguishing as a general rule. Free would be Free and slaves would be owned animals. There would be no GOREAN FREE and everyone else. There would be no need for women to have to figure out who was free or Gorean, they wouldn't remotely be judging who is Free enough. To me, slaves have no dignity, no modesty or ability to define integrity, etc. So in the end, it shouldn't matter who is Free and who is slave to a woman who is slave of a Gorean. All she needs to realize is SHE is the slave. The problem i see is too many slaves of Men think they are entitled to know and on many levels approve what everyone else is instead of acknowledging the actuality of their status in and of itself.

As i said this is really hard fr me to explain. So i am sure it ill cause some raised eyebrows lol.
angel





< Message edited by barelynangel -- 1/12/2010 7:01:48 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 7:25:18 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 26033
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I don't know if this makes sense. If it were Gor, there would be no distinguishing as a general rule. Free would be Free and slaves would be owned animals. There would be no GOREAN FREE and everyone else. There would be no need for women to have to figure out who was free or Gorean, they wouldn't remotely be judging who is Free enough. To me, slaves have no dignity, no modesty or ability to define integrity, etc. So in the end, it shouldn't matter who is Free and who is slave to a woman who is slave of a Gorean. All she needs to realize is SHE is the slave. The problem i see is too many slaves of Men think they are entitled to know and on many levels approve what everyone else is instead of acknowledging the actuality of their status in and of itself.


hello angel

i pulled this out not to argue your point, but to explain my own a bit. i agree with all that you posted, except that it isnt gor where we live. my only need to know is based upon interactions. i would interact with a Free far differently than another slave. i would also interact differently with someone outside the gorean way of thought, so to speak. no one in my profession would expect a slave mentality when dealing with customers, or patients. so while the mentality is still there, it has to be tempered with the knowledge of their expectations.

gah! i think im making this worse.

ah well

thank you for your post

tazzy

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 7:29:17 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2104
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		Maybe it is only because I have just come fron browsing the political boards here and elsewhere, but I am seeing this question in a different light.

As Bita said, there are many societies (Portugal among them) where social stratification is much more rigid and sharply defined than what most of us are used to.
Instead of focusing on Free (Mostly men) and slave (mostly women) it is interesting to see this in terms of politics.
From what I read, Gor resembles nothing so much as a feudal society- there is no such concept as egalitarianism, equality,or "rights" that are inherent to a person. All people- man or woman, Free or slave- have only the freedom they fight for and hold on to.
To be a bit more specific- "social justice" as we define it in the West,is very alien to them.

All of this is why I view the books as being as much a cautionary tale of what not to do, as they are a prescription for what to do.

Consider the debate now raging over the Wall Street banks, and their unfair advantage over consumers, or the view that the government is enlarging itself at the expense of the People's freedom.

The debate usually takes as a assumption that all people, rich or poor are equal, and are entitlted to inherent rights and dignity. There isn't any poliical party I am aware of (in the US) that openly holds to the notion of debt slavery,or that questions the notion of rights for the poor. (I will stifle my snarky thoughts about the Republicans at the moment).

We who live either as Goreans or in M/s relationships are content to do so,because we get to choose both our orientation, and our mate, and even whether or not we with to participate.

Suppose, as Bita premised, that we lived in a world in which it was different?

For many, the "Pro" would be that female enslavement could be practiced fully and openly.
For me, however, the "Con" would be that what goes around, comes around. Suppose the penalty for defaulting on a credit card or mortgage was lifetime enslavement?

Quite a few people gave their lives to rid the world of social stratification, for some very good reasons.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 7:33:29 PM   
alittleevil


Posts: 235
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings to you,

I am poorly educated about Gorean philosophy, so i do hesitate to answer this question at all, but i found it interesting to think about.  I can't respond in any intellectual fashion, but only from my heart.  Gorean status as "slave" is a merit based one. Not fit to be free=fit to be slave. No use as free=useful as a slave. Simple. Not pretty, but simple.

On Gor the planet, the disparate statuses are as natural as air. A slave among free behaves as well, a slave, because not to do so significantly shortens the value and the life span.  Not fit to be free=slave. Not even fit to be slave=sleen/mine fodder. 

Within the modern Gorean culture, slavery is more likely to be a personal decision, or the decision of one Man, for a girl.  Yet still, we are a pretty luxury. And, still, chosen for a value as a slave. Our Masters' expectations and the separate status remind us of that. If i were fit to be free, to hold my head and my own views and values up to others and force them to see me as free/worthy, i would be... free.  I can't--why should there not be a price for that?  The Gorean subculture is not the only one who holds this standard for a someone who would either choose or accept him- or herself as a slave.  An individual may, for her merits as a slave, indeed be cherished, but among those who also cherish freedom, we are apart. 'Despised', even.  I don't think that the fact that a status of "slave", with its attendant expectations and mores, benefits Gorean community/society any more than any one slave does, it simply reflects it. And perhaps, that in and of itself is the benefit?

I wish you well,
aj


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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 9:19:03 PM   
kushiels


Posts: 55
Joined: 11/1/2009
Status: offline 		Greetings,

if my views are not welcome as i am not well read or versed in Gorean culture or philosophy, i will respectfully withdraw them, but thoughts posted on here raised questions for me as well.

i struggle not with the concept of being a slave, and being that regardless of who i come across. not wanting to open anything up, but that is part of the problem in other areas of this forum--for some people, their slave status seems to change based on who they are addressing.  that doesn't make sense to me.  i am a slave. and whether i am talking to my fellow (please forgive my familiarity) slaves or a slave trainer or first girl or a Free Woman or a Free Man, i hope to present myself and thoughts in a way that is pleasing and indicates that i am a slave. Because that is what is honest and true, to the best of my understanding.

That being said, what i do struggle with (and it may be simply that i am not as far along as some others in my journey as a slave) is the concept that i am not "fit" to be a Free Person.  alittleevil said it the most directly, but i think she is not alone in that thought. i do not consider myself worth "less" than a Free Person of Earth, i consider myself to have a very different role from any Free Person, and i would consider it the height of rudeness to imagine that I was owed something by anyone, Free or not, or to consider myself above Them.  i feel that i still have value, though i think the best way for me to have value is to become a valuable SLAVE, as a slave is what i am--to try to be valuable in a different way would be dishonest and improper. i do not know if this belief--that i have value as a person, regardless of my very distinct and somewhat debased "role" as a slave--is correct within Goreanism, and if it is not i hope that someone is willing to correct me on this.

i hope my words do not appear disrespectful, and perhaps they do not belong here, but a slave's worth (whatever it is) seems to have ramifications on the discussion of the pros and cons of social stations.

respectfully,
kushiels


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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/13/2010 12:07:33 AM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 255
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline 		The status of 'free' and 'slave' is much less limiting than the only status available to us in the world in which we live... 'free'. In the paradigm of a goreanesque culture, people can be owned as the property of another... people suited to 'thrive' in such a situation. As is mentioned often, only about 2 percent of people actually fit into this category. Meaning in a Gorean paradigm, 98 percent of the people are considered under the status of 'free'. Now within that status, there is a great stratification of just how 'free' a person is. But at the end of the day, if you aren't the legal propery of someone else, you are 'free'.

What are the pros and cons to that... well, first of all it allows people to be allotted individual dignity and respect of the community in terms of acknowledging their existance and rights as a free member of the society regardless of where they fall on the spectrum of just how 'free' or another word might be 'autonomous' they really are. Whether that is to be considered a pro or a con is debatable.



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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/13/2010 4:09:56 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1710
Status: offline 		Hello sweetgirlserves,

quote:

But at the end of the day, if you aren't the legal propery of someone else, you are 'free'.


I disagree with this, because slavery in the "legal" sense of the word is illegal, at least here in the US, and everywhere else that I know of.   While yes on Gor, slavery is a legal status, it's not here, so that's not how a slave is held by a man.  By this definition, NO one is a slave. 

Take care,

Elizabeth

(in reply to sweetgirlserves)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/13/2010 5:22:46 AM   
alittleevil


Posts: 235
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kushiels

....
That being said, what i do struggle with (and it may be simply that i am not as far along as some others in my journey as a slave) is the concept that i am not "fit" to be a Free Person.  alittleevil said it the most directly, but i think she is not alone in that thought. i do not consider myself worth "less" than a Free Person of Earth



Hello kushiels,

Perhaps the use of the word "fit" was a bit harsh and i certainly didn't intend to offend anyone.  Perhaps "best suited" would be a better choice, since what makes one suited for slavery can be personal attributes, choices, temperaments etc, and isn't intended to reflect on anyone's human worth, simply one's suitability to be free.  Then too, the use of the word "slave" here has a very specific set of connotations that it does not have in the larger world of "all those who engage in BDSM." Gorean culture is not the only one to have these kind of "understood" definitions of a person who is a slave, but it is the main one which does whose voice(s) is heard here.  So when i say slave, i refer the the specific condition as it is understood in this type of culture--does that make sense? :-)

One can be deeply submissive and/or sexually kinked in this direction, find fulfillment in devoted service to one's beloved partner, etc, and not be a slave.  I am a slave because Master made me one, he was able to do so because i am particularly vulnerable to that condition (slavery). I was not just willing but  inclined to give up my personal freedoms (including the 'right' to be seen as worthy in certain ways). This makes me different than someone who can not, will not, do that. It doesn't make my personhood less valuable, and it makes me very valuable indeed as a slave because it makes me inclined to serve as Master wishes--but there is a price for that here, and in other realms, where 'slave' has this particular set of connotations.  I hope i make sense!

Best to you,
aj



< Message edited by alittleevil -- 1/13/2010 5:25:54 AM >

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/13/2010 5:56:22 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..

Probably the shortest and most concise voice thus far..thank you alittleevil.

The only offset of this I could say is that I know I am of value to Master..because I am still here..but I can't really add a measure to that value..i.e. extremely valueable..very valueable..highly valueable etc. That sort of thing Master doesn't discuss with me but he does let me know I guess in different ways beyond just still being here by taking the time to thank me or tell me he is glad he found me..things like that.

In the grand scope of things the only benefit I can see of being a slave..is that it is exactly where I seem to fit. It isn't a measure really of whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing in some general sense, and I'm not factored into any process to determine status or class of persons who are not slaves. This is not to say that slaves..or rather just me..won't try to be of importance in that regard because I am human, and wasn't always a slave.. :)

starshine


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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/13/2010 7:19:05 AM   
sabba


Posts: 396
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


hello angel

i pulled this out not to argue your point, but to explain my own a bit. i agree with all that you posted, except that it isnt gor where we live. my only need to know is based upon interactions. i would interact with a Free far differently than another slave. i would also interact differently with someone outside the gorean way of thought, so to speak. no one in my profession would expect a slave mentality when dealing with customers, or patients. so while the mentality is still there, it has to be tempered with the knowledge of their expectations.

gah! i think im making this worse.

ah well

thank you for your post

tazzy


greetings tazzy;


sabba completely disagrees with this. Why would interactions with Free be any different than interactions with other slaves? Unless you have directives from your Owner to do so.....what exactly is the difference? sabba certainly isn't saying that there are no differences between Free and slave, but why would your demeanor/position/status/behaviors change dependent on who you were interacting with? This may be oversimplifying....but would you "treat" a slave badly, just because she is a slave? sabba doesn't think you would.....so again, what exactly would be different?

Recently she got to spend the day with Mistress Liz and Master Brule....and she doesn't believe she acted any different than she did the day before, during a meeting with her clients. (Except for the enormous mountain bugs...OMG!). A couple weeks later, she had lunch with Master Brule and angelique. sabba is sure she will be corrected if she is wrong, but there was  no difference in the way she interacted with Master and the way she interacted with angelique. One is Free, and one is slave.....but sabba was the same person she always is, regardless of who she interacts with.

Free or slave, Gorean or not, at a Masters side or by herself....her duty is to be who He has deemed her to be....slave. Not some of the time....but all of it. sabba doesn't act any differently when she is at home, at work, at the ballpark, at dinner with friends or at a Gorean gathering. In her profession, she is expected to be lot's of things. Intelligent, assertive, decisive, factual, knowledgable and tenacious come to mind. None of those characteristics change when she leaves the office at the end of the day. As a slave, she is still all of those things....her mentality is the same.

well wishes,
sabba





< Message edited by sabba -- 1/13/2010 7:33:19 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/13/2010 9:37:09 AM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
Greetings sabba and tazzy,

I would have to agree with both of you here, (and Angel, though I disagree with her on some other counts, but that's for later...) because I feel that you are both saying the same thing in different wording.

I don't change who I am based on who I am interacting to.
I am a slave.
I am always a slave, in all circumstances, at all locations.
As such, I will approach everybody I interact with as who and what I am, a slave.

Now me being a slave first and foremost means I try to live up to Master's expectations of me.
And among those expectations he place on me, is the rule that I have to be pleasing to him. Period.
There are no exceptions, or ifs, or buts, or specifications to that rule, I am simple expected to be pleasing to him.

Now when it comes to social interactions I have with other people, I can best achieve this goal of pleasing Master by being pleasing to the person I interact with.
So being found pleasing is my first goal, with nearly everybody I ever interact with, in nearly every situation. It doesn't matter if I'm dealing with a Gorean Free, a vanilla, a slave, my mother, a kid or the Pope, I try to be pleasing. (Well, most times at least, I'm not saint... *blushes*)

Now the real difference in my interactions with the free versus slaves lays in the WAY I accomplish this mission of mine.
Generally, it will be pleasing to the Gorean Free if I address them by a tittle... generally, it will NOT be pleasing to a fellow kajira if I would address her with the same tittle.
Generally, it will be pleasing to the Free if I obey them, generally, it would make a fellow kajira feel uncomfortable if I set out to obey them.

Different people will have different expectations of me, and that expectation will define how I approach them in my attempt to be pleasing... this is why I will use a different type of courtious behavior toward the Gorean Free, then I would towards a fellow kajira, then I would towards a BDSM submissive, then I would towards the King of Belgium.
Different approach, but same starting baseline though....

After all is said and done, the only thing that REALLY matters in the way I asses how I am going to behave towards somebody is not THEIR personal status, but MY personal status towards my own Master and the implied expectations he places on me derived from that status.


I think that's what tazzy meant when she says she behaves differently with her patients then she does with other people, and differently with slaves then with the Free. She doesn't change who she is, because of them; instead she changes HOW to please them, because of who she is.
When she is working as a nurse, the best way to please and serve her patients is by being the best, professional nurse, she can be, not by "serving" their every whim by literally obeying their every command. In fact, doing so would go against the spirit of the very service those patients expect her to deliver.

I wish you well,

ishy






_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/13/2010 10:08:14 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		I works for lawyers, and the State Attorney of Cook County for MANY years while i was a slave - i was taken and groomed by many to be an attorney without a legal degree as well as a person who knows what the hell she was doing and i was rewarded by having my director and the actual State Attorney use me for their benefit, at times i did in fact give orders, make decisions and over all had a position of power among people.   Being a slave didn't have me doing my job any differently.  However, it didn't matter if these people knew or didn't know if i was a slave they were all because IIIII didn't know their status and wasn't planning on asking Free to me.  Does this mean i went around with slave protocols -- hell no.  Protocols DON'T make a slave more slave or less of a slave.   What i did know was that they were Free.  If throughout my day i handled a situation that was less than what my Master expected -- even if he thought i was too short, too "toned" or whatnot, i got my ass beat for it -- EVEN IF the person i did this to wasn't aware of it.  I got my ass beat because i determined by being too short, too "toned" or getting pissed off etc.   While interaction between my Master and i had allowances and things that people would find less than stellar slave behavior between us at times, i was never allowed to remotely deviate from my place as a slave among Free.  (Its probably because give me an inch and i take a mile).   I was not allowed UNLESS specifically allowed by a Free person and okayed by my Master to arbitrarily view myself or think of myself as an equal status to a free person.  Even when allowed i was never allowed to lose my status in my head.  Because ALLOWANCES can be revoked without warning when you are a slave. 

I don't see any issue with slaves existing among Free easily within the status their being a slave creates.  It shouldn't in any way effect how you do your job or get things accomplished for your Master.  This has always flabbergasted me when people use positions of their job to say they can't stay in their status of a slave.  I did it.  I fucked up at times and my Master corrected my MINDSET as to how i viewed a situation or person within my job because of my position, but all in all, i worked with judges, attorneys, cops of all levels, staff, people in position of power and people who had no power.  I didn't walk around protocoling people to death nor did i grovel, i did my job within the concept of my status.  There were manu times i did have to reign myself in and take a deep breath before i decided i WAS the same status as the person i was speaking to and go completely off on their idiotic selves -- however, the understanding of my status was absolute when dealing with Free.  My master allowed a whole hell of a lot with him, but he didn't mess around when it came to those outside our relationship.   I did however remember usually when someone was irritating the hell out of me, that on many levels they were ALLOWED to do so, and even though i had a mission, i was to take this concept (i was a slave) into consideration WHEN dealing with them.  I got what i needed to accomplished.  And there were days i maintained my place, and days when i fucked up.  HOWEVER, the days i fucked up (given my venting lol usually) i was disciplined and my mindset adjusted.  There are many slaves in positions of power due to their ability and how their master's choose to use them.

However, it doesn't in the least raise them remotely to the status of a FREE person -- no matter what type of Free person it is.

I think this is why slave status is a con to many because the focus on protocols or being TREATED like a slave is what matters, instead of a slave understanding HER place -- its expected everyone else understand her place instead.  If that makes sense.

A pro as i said is a much secure place in my mind set becuase hell its a lot easier worrying about ME and having to worrying about what everyone else is or assess situation saying am i gonna be a slave here or not.  It narrows down a whole hell of a lot of confussion trying to decipher things and people and situations.


angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 1/13/2010 10:38:14 AM >

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/13/2010 11:18:02 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 22778
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Using fast reply........

Please excuse the interuption. I just want to thank Bita for starting this thread because it has been a fascinating read. In addition, thank you to those that have contributed.


< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 1/13/2010 11:19:15 AM >

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/13/2010 11:20:37 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 35843
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Bita always is informative and thoughtful, as well as making you have to cogitate a bit.

Hup

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For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/13/2010 1:01:55 PM   
kushiels


Posts: 55
Joined: 11/1/2009
Status: offline 		Hello alittleevil,

thanks so much for taking the time to clarify.  i certainly wasn't offended, but i did want to make sure i understood correctly what attitude/beliefs surrounded the concept of being a slave, and as you (and others here) seem very committed to your status and appropriate behavior, i took the opportunity to dive in a little deeper to make sure i understood what you were saying--thanks for getting back to me on it!

based on what you said, "fit" does seem like a very good choice of words--if i understand, you don't necessarily mean that you aren't worthy enough as a human being to be a Free Person, more that you are "fit" to be a slave--that is the role you are suited to.

thank you to others who are posting here as well.  barelynangel, your thoughts in this thread and the other one have given me a lot to think about regarding how i view slavery, and i love your directness--very helpful!


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~AquaticSub

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/13/2010 4:45:56 PM   
alittleevil


Posts: 235
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

The only offset of this I could say is that I know I am of value to Master..because I am still here..but I can't really add a measure to that value..i.e. extremely valueable..very valueable..highly valueable etc. That sort of thing Master doesn't discuss with me but he does let me know I guess in different ways beyond just still being here by taking the time to thank me or tell me he is glad he found me..things like that.


Greetings starshine,

That did sound a little boast-y didn't it? :-/ I can only plead trying to express myself before quite enough coffee was running through my veins. "Useful" or "suitable" probably would have been better word choice than "valuable"! 

Wishing you well
aj



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Throw me to the wolves because there's order in the pack (RHCP)

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/13/2010 5:13:02 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6618
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		For AnimusRex,

Nice angle.

And it is clear that the Gorean model does not work for a modern society, or even a world at the modern level of complexity, though one might argue that there are things worth carrying across, particularly at the local level. However, there is no viable migration path to a sustainable society that is perfectly in line with Gorean thought, which requires going beyond that. For the most part, that is not something Goreans appear ready and willing to commit to, and in all fairness, most have enough to do internalizing and naturalizing the mode of thought. Certainly, it is easier to live in the world than to change it.

One of the things that I have noticed from my own society, is that the bulk of the population want to tear down the accidental successes we have had. For instance, the penal system has one of the lowest all round recidivism rates, yet people want to change those factors that differ from comparable countries with an order of magnitude more recidivism. The crime rates were exceptionally low until a sisterhood lady took over the chief of police position, yet people want more of her changes and less of the things that originally kept the crime rates low. Even the lowest of the low stand to lose something by attacking their host society, and many argue it would be better if they had nothing to lose. I fail to see how that benefits the rest of us.

Such things aren't a matter of what is deserved, but rather of what the rest of us deserve.

Overall, I am a fan of people earning their way in life, and not getting what has not been earned individually in some way, including freedom. But if a society of this scale and complexity is to work, some measures must be taken to ensure that we do get what we have earned, and our inclinations do not seem to support that- we aren't well adapted to our circumstances. That seems to hold true for most Goreans as well, which is one of the reasons I support the notion of a caste system which- unlike historical and contemporary caste systems in the real world- is based on merit.

Slavery as a penalty for debts, for instance, is a recipe for more antagonism in a society. What free person would not see their freedom as more important than a community that seeks to take it from them, assuming one does not see the cause of the situation as a choice on one's own part? Certainly there is a lot of financial irresponsibility out there, but there are also a significant number of cases where bad luck or circumstance plays a significant part in establishing a downward spiral.

It also fails to recognize a basic element of human nature which is ill addressed by such words as "earned," namely that we require feedback first and foremost, and that our innate sense of justice is in many ways tied to the perception of appropriate feedback. Correct use of feedback balances effort and accomplishment in determining what is earned, and that is one of many areas where Dr. Lange has fallen far short of constructing a truly human model of life. Going beyond Gor will probably entail accepting that premise, and in that, I'm sure it's evident how much resistance one might expect if one were to push for that.

---

For kushiel,

While the girl did not intend to be harsh, she should have been. The word is indeed appropriate. By Gorean standards, if you aren't fit to be free, you aren't worthy of freedom. And, yes, that means people who have traded liberties for safety. It does also mean people who have yielded to threats. The price of freedom can sometimes be blood, or even death. Anyone who isn't willing to shoulder their part of that burden is at the mercy of someone else. Anyone who isn't willing to pay the price of their own freedom when circumstances call for it is essentially not fit, not worthy, of being free.

Harsh or not, that's a reality. If you don't own up to your own freedom, you aren't free, and anyone treating you accordingly is simply recognizing that fact and acting on it. Sure, one can posit that those who are free should be beneficial masters who leave you on a long leash, such as modern governments do with citizens who aren't free in this sense. But you're at the mercy of others, and that they choose to be merciful is mere circumstance when you haven't earned freedom.

Let's not be apologetic about that, folks.

Health,
al-Aswad.

P.S.: One highly thought of historical persona in the US voiced the exact same sentiment. Remember which one?


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/13/2010 5:44:51 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		"If you're not ready to die for it, put the word ''freedom'' out of your vocabulary."~Malcolm X

"They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."~Benjamin Franklin

"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation."~Douglas MacArthur

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."~Thomas Paine

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."~Thomas Jefferson

Which American, Aswad? 

~K

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

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