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Social Status: Pros and cons


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Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 5:19:48 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 8286
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Greetings forum readers,

Reading through a thread on another sight a question was raised about arbitrary respect being given to dominants simply because of their chosen identifier as dominants. Most of those responding were or are in M/s non-gorean relationships. One poster chimed in with the idea that D/s (or M/s) is simply a relationship status and orientation has nothing to do with social status. In M/s, I would tend to agree with that assessment but I do feel quite differently when it comes to status for those who embrace a Gorean philosophy. It seems quite clear to me (albeit this is simply my opinion) that there is, indeed, a social status based on orientation (for simplicity: orientation defined as either free or slave should work well enough for the purpose of this question) to the averge Gorean philosopher.

What are the pros and cons of maintaining such a social status?

Obviously, not everyone is going to agree or believe that such a distinction exists so this question is for those who do and as I already know how such is viewed outside the boundaries of Gor, I am, specifically, seeking input from Goreans on the subject. That said, there may be others who would seek opinions from those outside of Gor so all opinions are welcome.

Thank you, in advance, for sharing any thoughts you may have, whether free or slave, on this subject.

(As I proof read back through this for typo's, it doesn't seem very well worded so I'm hoping the gist of it is, at least, recognizable. If not, I'll try to dom my head cold into some sort of compliance to make more sense!)



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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 7:24:08 AM   
tazzygirl


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hi Bita

Im not quite sure what you are asking, so, im going to rephrase what i think you said. Actually, upon second reading, i get it, i think! lol

This is how i view all this.. and.. again.. this is only me. a slave has the duty to please his/her owner. a slave, held to the gorean standard, has the duty to please the Free. respect is but just one of those ways. you asked for the pros and cons, we i see them. (please note, this list is only when interacting among gorean Free, not day to day vanilla life, jobs, ect)

pros

takes away any decision making on my part. Free is Free, i dont have to guess at it or make assumptions once they claim their social status.

relieves me of many bothersome issues when dealing with the Free. it also saves on lots of headache pills. i dont have to prove i am right... by definition i am wrong if they say i am wrong.

cons

i cannot extract myself from situations that may be causing problems on my own. i have to wait on a Free to do so, unless my safety is at issue.

i may have to serve someone i dont particularly like. but in the effort to please Master, i serve whom i am told without discussion.


The rest, to me, Bita, is dressing. When i meet someone who says they are gorean, my first thought is.. Free or slave. Once that question is answered, i know immediately how to respond. i dont have to worry if Master likes them or not, thats his decision and feelings, not one i can assume for myself and make those decisions for him. In fact, he doesnt have to like them... he can despise them... but if he places me in the position of being slave among gorean Free, i will continue to respond respectfully, thoughtfully, and attempt to serve gracefully until he says not too.

The decisions are really his. my job is easy. "just do"

grins

thank you for the topic Bita

well wishes

tazzy







_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11

"There are no atheists getting blowjobs" ~Master Ron

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 8:00:28 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline
Greetings

Pros: When I was a slave I found having a fixed place very comforting. And being a slave as a social status very much enforced the dynamics and made it far harder to slip. It felt very right for me, and in fact originally before I got to know the philosophy of the Gor lifestyle it was the slavery as a social status which attracted me to it.

Cons: It can be difficult for non Goreans to interact with Goreans. Often you can have a non Gorean slave or sub who find it offensive to be required to say Master or Mistress to other free and behave subservient to all free. Most Goreans however solve this by not expecting non Gorean submissives to adhere to Gorean social customs, it can still create a problem now and then though.

I wish you well




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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 8:21:34 AM   
starshineowned


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Greetings..

I can not really exceed what Mistress Nephandi and tazzy have said..only say it differently but what I can say is that I am one of those that come from the non-Gorean side as well as non-BDSM side. I know Master as Master. I know that Master started out readily identifying as BDSM many years ago, and that he took in mentoring from Men much his senior within that life who took the time to tell him..dude..your doing this wrong, and he listened and welcomed their knowledge. I guess if anything had to be added to M/s it would be strict M/s. His place and my place are set, and he doesn't give much wiggle room as to what he expects from either status whether you call yourself Gorean or BDSM.

starshine


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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 9:00:25 AM   
BitaTruble


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Thank you all for the responses. I was actually looking more for pros and cons to the Gorean community as a whole rather than what an individual may view as a pro or con personally based on their own status.

I apologize that my foggy brain won't kick in to gear so that I can word my question correctly.

Maybe I can jump off Tazzy's post since the three responses are somewhat similar and ask it this way.


Tazzy.. you mentioned that one of the pros is that you don't have to *guess* or make assumptions once someone proclaims their status .. you will always know that status X garners behavior X .. but my question is more along the lines of how does *that* help or hinder the community as a whole?

On the one hand, there may be a certain comfort level to Gorean person X who comes in knowing what behavior is expected of them or what behavior they expect of others based on their social standing and on the other hand, a stranger is a stranger so perhaps that becomes moot? Non-Gorean person Y who is unfamiliar with any social status probably won't have that same comfort level (or lack of comfort level if they don't know that stranger and enemy use the same word).

I may have to wait until my meds wear off and my head clears then try this again at a later date because I think I've made a fair mess of my own question and if I don't get it, I certainly can't expect a mind-reader to come in and explain what it is that I'm asking to know!

Thank you again for the responses though. I appreciate the time you took to try to answer my question despite the fact that I didn't actually get out there what it was that I wanted to know.

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~Oliver Wendell Holmes~

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 11:58:11 AM   
ishyB


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Greetings Bita,

First of all, I think it is impossible to weigh something that is an individual training tool in terms of communal pros and cons.
Secondly, I'd like to say that I am really surprised at how many people think the way a slave is supposed to react to other people has anything at all to do with those other people.

I don't think that the way Master has me behave towards anybody else has anything to do with some communal perceived social status, nor does it have anything to do with anybody deserving or getting my respect based on a communal social status.
In fact, the way the community, ANY community, perceives my social status is absolutely irrelevant to the way I am expected to behave.
This is to say that the way I am expected to act among vanilla people is in no way different then the way I am expected to act among Goreans, or BDSMers or other kink-friendly groups.
Instead, my behavioral rules in social settings are in place because they are convenient to Master personally, not for the community or anybody's benefit.

I am his property, and as such, he is responsible for my behavior in public, just as he is responsible for the behavior of his dogs when he takes them in public.
Because of this responsibility, he has taught his dogs not to bite strangers in any circumstances, UNLESS they would get the okay from him, either by verbal command or body language. He also taught them to back off, on his verbal command, should they attack anyways.
Because they are dogs, he does not expect them to know the difference between a friend of his giving him a pad on the shoulder and an enemy attacking him. They are dogs, they are not expected to deduct such things for themselves, instead, he expects them to obey and NOT attack, unless he says other wise.
The same thing applies for their obedience to strangers. They will obey his command to sit, as much as they would obey any other person's command to sit, not because he thinks that the other person deserves his dog's obedience, but because he doesn't expect his dogs to know on their own when it's okay to obey and when not. As such, he trained them to always obey human, unless he specifies differently depending on the situation.

The reason he did this has nothing to do with the communities perception of his dogs, or the fact that humans expect the dogs to show them respect or obedience. Instead, it is merely because training the dogs this way is more convenient to Master himself. He knows that he can take them out in public, and that they will behave in a social setting with strangers, where unexpected things might happen.
He trained them to know their place among humans, because that is the only way he can assume responsibility for their behavior.

Same thing applies to me. I am expected to show deference -NOT respect- to anybody free, not because of who they are, but because of who I am.
Master controls my behavior in this way because it's convenient to him to do so. A general rule, with a few exceptions here and there, makes it easier to make my behavior pleasing, and reflect well on him. He is not with me 24/7 to instruct me what to do in every single social setting that might occur. As such he just set a standard baseline that will insure I behave in a manner that is pleasing to HIM personally.

Again, note that it is him that is being pleased by my behavior, not the community.
As such, I think it would be foolish to try and weigh the pros and cons of the discipline he hold me under from the communities perspective, seeing my social status really has nothing to do with the reason why I am expected to deffer to the free.

I asked Master what he considers to be the pros and cons to the behavior he expects me to adhere to in public and he said that the main pro is that it's simple convenient and pleasing to him, and makes it easier to keep me in the right head space.
As to a con, he said that there really aren't any to him personally. Though the fact that I frequently interact with vanilla people who are often unaware of the fact that I am a slave did make the set of rule I have to operate under a bit more complicated and more diverse then what he would have preferred.

I wish you well,

ishy






< Message edited by ishyB -- 1/12/2010 12:12:28 PM >


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 12:04:35 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Maybe I can jump off Tazzy's post since the three responses are somewhat similar and ask it this way.


Tazzy.. you mentioned that one of the pros is that you don't have to *guess* or make assumptions once someone proclaims their status .. you will always know that status X garners behavior X .. but my question is more along the lines of how does *that* help or hinder the community as a whole?

On the one hand, there may be a certain comfort level to Gorean person X who comes in knowing what behavior is expected of them or what behavior they expect of others based on their social standing and on the other hand, a stranger is a stranger so perhaps that becomes moot? Non-Gorean person Y who is unfamiliar with any social status probably won't have that same comfort level (or lack of comfort level if they don't know that stranger and enemy use the same word).


ok... hmm... how does that help or hinder. good question!

Lets say a nationwide gorean gathering has been planned. People are coming from all over. To say expectations are high would possibly be an understatement. Its the time to see and be seen!

Now, remember, this is a gorean gathering. as a slave, i am not gorean, i am merely a slave among the Free, just like any other slave. There are no distinctions among us, with the exception of owners. It all goes back to the Free. ishy is a slave, just like i am a slave. what seperates us? ishy is Master Bull's slave, i am not. even in the ownership and differences among slaves its all about the Free. of course we have our physical differences, educational differences, emotional, psycological, ect. but, if you define us.. we are slaves.

Having said that, the expectations of the Free are no different for ishy than they are for me at such a gathering. We are expected to be pleasing, in whatever form that takes, within the guildlines of our owners. at such a gathering, i highly doubt, and strongly suspect, that any girl there who is owned will attend with her owner.

Now, from there, as i said, we are expected to please and serve. Now, i want to take a moment to talk about serving. so many seem to believe this is just between the sheets (or on top of a bale of hay if one is available and the man decides its the right spot). serving is just that, striving to please. i have been asked to brush a FW's hair, tell a story, sing a song, compose a poem, rub a man's feet or shoulders, nestle against a man's side, to kneel in the middle of a circle of FM and not say a word, to clean and do laundry, to fetch food and drink... the list of service is endless... and not a single one of them had anything to do with sex or sexual contact. service is simply doing as you are told. The books speak of slaves being offered up for sexual use by the owners to other men... sometimes these offers were accepted... sometimes not. the way this was explained to me is as follows.... a good host offers his best... a good guest thanks the host and refuses the best. some gorean relationships entail the act of sharing the girls. i dont consider that "nongorean". its just what works for their dynamic. to me, gorean is far more than what happens in the bedroom.

so, back to the community question. a slave serving in such a gathering would serve freely, eagerly, happily, because she has no decisions to make. she doesnt have to chose who to serve first or last, i have no doubt there will be plenty needing and plenty to offer. if trouble were to arise, then her owner would step in if he saw fit. uncollared girls would look to the host or hostess. there is NO expectation of protection, just the expectation of the Free having a good time.. and the slaves doing their best to make that a possibility.

Now, if we toss in a slave who is new, she may get in trouble... but its through errors that we learn the quickest. make an error, get the correction, and its over... unless the error is repeated. now, im not speaking of little things... like which direction you wipe a glass, or how you carry trays of drinks, or how jiggle when you should wiggle. but attention to detail is expected. an order is an order. regardless of how silly it may seem, if a man tells me to fetch him a horn of mead, and carry it over my head on my way back, you better believe that is what will happen.

Our (slaves) expectations of the Free do not matter in this context. The Free take care of other Free. We are there to take care of them all, until commanded not too. I have rarely been commanded to ignore a FM or FW. most often, i am told to remember my place and serve with grace and beauty.

When people speak of pleasing, its seen in the light of sex by anyone from the outside. i serve everyday, in a multitude of ways. i also give one hell of a blow job... but if i were to do that as often as i do other things in service, Master wouldnt be able to walk.

Anyways, i hope this helps, Bita!

well wishes

tazzy

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 1/12/2010 12:42:08 PM >


_____________________________

No body dies a virgin... life fucks everyone.

RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11

"There are no atheists getting blowjobs" ~Master Ron

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 12:52:45 PM   
BitaTruble


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Thank you, ishy and tazzy, both for the thoughtful answers. They answered exactly what I asked but my poor wording has not put forth what it is that I'm really curious to know. I'm going to give this another shot and see if I can't engage at least two brain cells working together at once to try to get my question across.

There are two distinct social classes among Goreans and I asked something similar a while back regarding the two distinct classes here in Portugal and this question relates to that one in a roundabout way. Here, there are the 'haves' and the 'have nots'. There really is no middle class (yet.. but that may be slowing changing although we'll be long gone before it actually happens) in Portugal. One is viewed as either rich or poor but Himself and I are neither rich nor poor. We would fall into a 'middle' class but because we are not seen as poor (because of his occupation) it is assumed that we are rich because the concept of a middle class here is, virutally, unheard of as a separate social class at all so there are few services for a middle class in terms of rental units, shopping etc.

Having two distinct classes in Portugal means that there are plenty of apartments to rent if you are poor. They are in poor neighborhoods with high crime rates and food prices tend to be lower in those areas. There are plenty of villas to rent if you are rich. They are in rich neighborhoods with low crime rates and high prices for food and services to match the high rental rates.

The pros, to my view, are that if you are rich, you have options and if you are poor, you have options. If, however, you are average (read: middle class) you're rather SOL in terms of places to live, eat, shop etc. Either you bite the bullet and overspend for items etc., or, you take the risk to go to the high crime areas to get even your basic needs met. That would be a con to having only two social classes in Portugal rather than a third (or more) option. That's more along the lines of the sort of information which I am seeking here.

Is having two social classes (free and slave) limiting in terms of options? Perhaps it is the opposite and having two options gives Gorean X a working model in which to guide them (free on their terms, slaves on the terms of their owner)?

I understand the idea that there are going to be some who say *yes* there is a Gorean community and some who say *no* there is no Gorean community but that really is not relevant to my question.. just that there *are* two distinct social classes and what are the pros and cons to having two distinct social classes and not some third, fourth or fifth option?

Ah, (lightbulb moment!) example. The unowned slave .. not exactly a slave, not exactly free .. but Gorean in philosophy and embracing what they deem to be Gorean values perhaps outside of a master or slave morality. Something.. different. So, you may have free as a social class, slave as a second social class and *unowned* as a third social class. Would that be seen as a pro or a con?

If that doesn't clear it up, then, truly, I will have to wait until my head is not stuffed full of sniffles and try again on a clearer day. :)





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~Oliver Wendell Holmes~

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 1:07:44 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Ah, (lightbulb moment!) example. The unowned slave .. not exactly a slave, not exactly free .. but Gorean in philosophy and embracing what they deem to be Gorean values perhaps outside of a master or slave morality. Something.. different. So, you may have free as a social class, slave as a second social class and *unowned* as a third social class. Would that be seen as a pro or a con?


Hi again Bita

i copied this part because maybe im seeing something that i shouldnt be. i dont see unowned as a seperate class. lets go back to the gathering. speaking of being unowned indicates, in itself, that they are not free. a FW would never consider herself being "unowned", only as Free, at least in the FW i know.

Once a woman enters such a gathering, possibly unknown to anyone there, her first few moments of interaction will make the determination for the rest of the people there. if she kneels, too late, she will never be seen as Free. if she acts bratty, again, too late, not a trait for either slave or FW. does this make sense?

there are only two social standings, from my understanding. Free or slave. a woman gets one opportunity to choose for herself. if she chooses unwisely, or displays traits not in keeping with her choice, then the decision will be made for her.

i feel like i have not made this clear. perhaps a Free will address this better than i feel i have been able too.

well wishes

tazzy

_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11

"There are no atheists getting blowjobs" ~Master Ron

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 1:24:20 PM   
ishyB


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Greetings Bita,

I think the problems you are having in asking this question stems from your perception of the situation.
I don't consider the distinction between free and slave to be anything at all like a social class.
In fact, the social status of a person does in no way dictate their interactions with other people, at least not in my opinion.

When I see the Gorean free interact with anybody, I see them evaluate that person based on INDIVIDUAL merit and base their interactions with that person based on that. This applies to a free person interaction with another free person, but it also applies to a free's interaction with slaves, though in their case the individual merit of the slave's owner is likely to determine what sort of interactions the free with have with the slave.

The same thing applies for slaves, though in revers.
A slave's interaction with other people is not based on that person's individual merit, nor on their social status, but instead on the expectations the slave's owner places on their social interactions.

When it comes to girls who seek to be owned, but currently aren't. The same thing applies. Those girls will, like a free person, determine for themselves how they interact with other people by evaluating each person based on their own merit; Free people interacting with the unowned girl will evaluate her the same way, and slaves will again interact with her based on the guidelines set by their owners.

Your question is unanswerable, because you are trying to evaluate something from an artificial standard that simple does not exist. This being the case exactly because Goreans tend to evaluate people based on individual merit instead of based on artificial classes.

As such, there are no communal pros and cons to how people treat each other, because there is no universal standard that determines how Goreans treat each other
All that can be discussed is the individual pros and cons of certain individual choices.

I wish you well,

ishy



< Message edited by ishyB -- 1/12/2010 1:26:55 PM >


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 1:48:08 PM   
BitaTruble


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tazzy.. thank you for the response. My example was not meant to point to an existing social class.. just a social class which *could* exist if there were more than two. The question is.. what are the pros and cons to having a social status of free and a social status of slave *only*. Not the behaviors associated with those social classes.

ishy, thank you as well. I disagree that my question is based on a false standard. There is a status of free and a status of slave in Gorean philsophy. I don't understand how one could think there is some false standard to stating what is a fact. That fact is the basis of my question. Again, my question is not to point to behaviors related to those two morality's but to ask what are the pros and cons of *having* only those two moralities. That, I believe, is something which could certainly be answered although that is not to say it 'will' be answered. It, perhaps, is not interesting to anyone but me and that's okay, too.

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 1:58:09 PM   
tazzygirl


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ohhhhhhhhhh.. hmmm... ok... i think i get it now, Bita. i need to twist my mind around this one for a bit though.

_____________________________

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 3:13:06 PM   
ishyB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

ishy, thank you as well. I disagree that my question is based on a false standard. There is a status of free and a status of slave in Gorean philsophy. I don't understand how one could think there is some false standard to stating what is a fact. That fact is the basis of my question. Again, my question is not to point to behaviors related to those two morality's but to ask what are the pros and cons of *having* only those two moralities. That, I believe, is something which could certainly be answered although that is not to say it 'will' be answered. It, perhaps, is not interesting to anyone but me and that's okay, too.



Greetings Bita,

I'm not trying to say here that Goreans don't acknowledge the two different social status of free and slave.
It's just that even though they reconise the two, that still doesn't mean that Goreans operate under the premise that there are only two moralities.
A slave can have a master morality, just like a free can have a slave morality, just like either a free or a slave can operate under a totally different third morality.

The social distinction Goreans place between free and slaves ONLY has implications on a PERSONAL level, in interpersonal relationships, therefor it's impossible to derive communal pros and cons from this, because there is no communal baseline to start from.
Instead, the Gorean default communal baseline is that people, be they free or owned, are weighed on an individual bases, when considering interpersonal relationships.
So if you want to evaluate the pros and cons of the way Goreans evaluate social status, you have to evaluate the pros and cons of considering people based on their own merit, instead of on an artificial class system.

I'm not saying that such class systems are not in place on Gor, they are, and the slave versus free is a good example of it, as it the caste system.
It's just that, even though Goreans have social status, they do not use social status in the same we we are used to doing -on a communal level- and instead are more prone to using it on an individual level.

I wish you well,

ishy




_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 4:20:00 PM   
BitaTruble


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Thank you for the input, ishy.

I find it interesting that you mention other moralitys. Are you speaking in general or in a specific sense, perhaps with the *Sames* or something along those lines? It's not exactly what I had in mind when I started the thread but it is an interesting idea. Rather a shame the circus appears to be in town as my stuffy notions aren't nearly as entertaining as the bright, shiny atmosphere on other threads which are probably enough to distract a few folks from partaking in intellectual discussions at this point so I am very grateful to you, tazzy, starshine and Nephandi for your responses here. They are much appreciated.

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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 5:32:34 PM   
Aswad


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With regard to the community, it has some of the pros and cons you would expect in any class based society, with a major difference being that it is at least nominally based on a specific trait: freedom, in the sense Heinlein used the word in a well-worn quote. Obviously, the extent to which social status and reality are congruent will vary, and the extent to which this trait is actually definitive will vary. And, again, there's more than a few who enjoy the dynamic while the trait is a different one, which will cause some friction against the common point of reference, since there is no such distinction made there on account of the satire, allegory, etc., etc., etc.

The interactions with other communities may be the most notable thing, however.

In the bulk of the West, slavery is an accepted part of life. However, honesty is not an accepted part of life. And, at the risk of state enslavement, the practice of any form of slavery cannot be honest. It must be couched in terms of consent and/or law, and that consent must be given with no socially unacceptable coercion (e.g. if someone made money transporting you into the country and reserved the right to deport you, then your consent is invalid; if they hired you from the slums and reserve the right to dump you back there or make you indebted for life, then your consent is valid as hell; and if you misfiled a tax form or whatever, then your consent isn't even needed anymore). When the coercion is "the door is over there, exit it to withdraw your consent, nobody's stopping you from doing so," then the matter is legal, but certainly not popular. The moral requirement is even less, but I will assume we are all playing by the rules (i.e. laws) here.

For the most part, we use this term to mean what it's always meant. The means and measures by which the status of property is enforced vary, presumably within the bound of law. But our idea of property, more fundamentally than law, is the notion of something that is claimed and kept, with intent to back up the claim against a challenge (which happens to be where legal notions of property have relevance, but let's stick to the fundamentals). A slave is claimed and kept, and the primacy of the emotions involved and our way of relating to those is part of why they don't exit the open door, at least not without slinking back in later on... to be property. In a sense, sufficient for the law, it is consensual. Yet, it kind of sidesteps the question, as there is no negotiation, no formal idea of consent. I will do as I will, and the girl will be there or not.

This uncompromising notion of property is part of the reason for the social status. And it generates friction when interacting with groups which emphasize formal consent and negotiation, where our use of the word slave may be the only sense in which the word is not used by the BDSM community at large. Many would even argue that it is unethical or abusive, particularly the notion that leaving is the manner of withdrawing consent. In a relationship, the "threat" of ending the relationship is problematic, and I would be inclined to agree on that point. However, in this case, it is an artifact of the matter of consent, and the fact that- with the exception of so-called "love slaves"- there is no relationship in the sense normally implied.

It is not that I'm saying "you will serve my guests, or this relationship is at an end." Instead, I am simply saying "you will serve my guests," and that is that. Leaving is just a recourse allowed by law. Some in the BDSM community undoubtedly have similar practices. But it is not the norm. Thus, as a society, we do see a con to the social status which is not inherent in class based societies, as a function of friction with the social norms around us: others hear the word, fail to consider that it may be meant in a more literal sense, and then respond based on what it means in their specific jargon; conversely, when others interact with us and present themselves as identifying as a slave, we tend to take that at face value, rather than the jargon interpretation (which usually, but again not always, is that of a submissive by a more eroticized/fetishised name).

As a side note, which you're probably aware of, negotiating is something we do when entering a free companionship between two free (i.e. non-slaves). There is nothing that says the negotiated terms have to be the equivalent of a prenuptual. It would, in fact, be quite acceptable to have the companionship agreement entail terms that are pretty much essentially the same as those generally seen in a D/s or M/s context, and the kinky among us, or those who enjoy the dynamic, may choose to do precisely that. Such agreements are renewed annually, usually with the same formality and reverence one might accord a significant milestone in a conventional marriage, contingent on both of the parties wishing to renew the agreement. In any case, even for those who did not arrive at the Gorean lifestyles through exposure to it via the BDSM communities, there's nothing alien about the arrangements in D/s and M/s relationships. The desire to avoid misunderstandings is why we tend to use the term from the books, kajira, and it would probably be helpful if others who subscribe to the conventional, negotiated relationship models were to present themselves as submissives, rather than slaves.

But, yeah, the main pros and cons as a group are simply those you would expect in any dual class subculture.

Don't know if that's what you were asking. Was it?

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 5:44:29 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7219
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
Hiya Bita,

It is a very interesting question, as well as the responses. Some of us have little time to put the thought to it, that I feel it deserves. I have enough in me to read these things, and take care of things here at home. Don't get discouraged.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 5:58:32 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6618
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

The question is.. what are the pros and cons to having a social status of free and a social status of slave *only*.


Seems I may have misread you.

It doesn't come down to pros and cons, really. It comes down to this: a Gorean who does not subscribe to the primacy of freedom is detestable (qua dira), whereas a slave who does subscribe to it is a poor slave. Roses aren't potatoes, and don't belong in a pot roast. Cabbages aren't orchids, and don't belong in a decoration. Both are useful and valuable, but not in the same contexts, judged according to the same standards. Thus, given this value primacy, the only sensible configuration is a two class system.

However, there are actually further classes, though those are less commonly integrated into people's lifestyles.

In the books, this is reflected in the difference between the high castes and the low castes. In our world, professions are a choice, even if one adheres to the remainder of the caste based thinking. And, as I've repeatedly pointed out, the books aren't a final answer to anything. Merit is important. Thus, Leonidas, with his keen wit and insight, is more highly regarded than me. That he identifies as the equivalent of the Builder caste and I identify as the equivalent of the Initiate caste does not matter (nor should it, as far as I'm concerned; I have great respect for the man).

Whether a more nuanced class system will arise in the life styles at some point is anyone's guess.

Additionally, again in the books, there is a clear distinction in terms of how much people are told. I favor comparing that to the concept of division of labor. But with the bulk of the lifestyle adherents coming from egalitarian societies, each with a fair bit of pride and usually at least a pinch of hubris (I've got buckets to spare, I'm sure), you would be hard pressed to find any who will readily admit that they belong in anything but the upper echelons in this regard. And that goes for comprehension, as well: a few posters plainly demonstrate a comprehension that is not particularly profound, yet those will generally also be the most inclined to tout the depth of their comprehension or write others off without debate.

Conversely, a few also appear to underestimate their own insight (are you listening, Bull?).

It should probably be borne in mind that a true Gorean culture, like any culture, would be an emergent property of a group of people, not a decision by a limited number of men. The books can't really serve as a template, except insofar as they show that a very wide range of configurations can occur while still adhering to the common theme. As such, it will take a long time before we can tell whether there will be a class system and so forth, let alone speculate on the pros and cons of one. So far, the online community here on CM and the offline community Silk and Steel are the two embryonic Gorean cultures, with the rest lacking the diversity to originate a culture, or being too scattered to do so.

In other words, for your answer, stay tuned for a few generations.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 5:58:45 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline
Bita, i am seconding what Orion said -- its a good topic. I have read your posts and a couple others but i am working on putting my thoughts into some semblance of sense. As i know what i am thinking but its more of an image concept than word concept lol. I had a couple drafts at work but lost two of them and dump the third as it wasn't what i was trying to say.

So hang in there.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 6:10:48 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 8286
Joined: 1/12/2006
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I feel like a woman who has been starving and suddenly has been granted access to a feast! I am not ashamed to say that I plan to feed in the manner of a barbarian .. when I wake up tomorrow and after the Nyquil has worn off. Wishing you all most well and thanking you profoundly for your thoughts.

As the Terminator was so fond of saying.. I'll be back. :D

_____________________________

۩ "The mind, once expanded to the dimensions of larger ideas, never returns to its original size." ۩
~Oliver Wendell Holmes~

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Social Status: Pros and cons - 1/12/2010 6:21:14 PM   
Unbuilder


Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline
Sorry, wrong thread.


< Message edited by Unbuilder -- 1/12/2010 7:16:49 PM >


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In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 20
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