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Within the Circle of His Steel


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Within the Circle of His Steel - 1/16/2010 10:37:53 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Evening, folks,

I believe much as my Native American ancestors did; we do not "own" the land, the herds, the plants, etc. We simply "borrow" them from our descendants. We are the 'stewards' of the moment. We are currently 'in possession' of these things.

In the books, Norman says:

quote:

"Within the circle of each mans sword, therein lies an Ubar."~pg9Tribesmen


...&...

quote:

"Be strong and do as you will . The swords of others will set you your limits."~pg10Marauders


...&...

quote:

"More real than the law is the heart."~pg146Tribesmen


Why would men take charge in a place when they aren’t the actual legal owner(s)? Is it really because someone else has not issued them a ‘deed’ or ‘title’ deemed valid by 'law'? Do men truly believe that without such they have no power or influence?

Can a man not, in any place, exert his influence & exercise his power? In doing so, doesn't he make a statement or take a stand that makes clear to those around him something of who he is, what he believes? Doesn't doing this present the opportunity to others to then make a choice to stand with this man, against him or to walk away?

Yes, it seems like a lot of questions, none of which I can answer myself. I am a woman...

So, I ask men.

Well wishes,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 1/17/2010 6:35:03 AM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 368
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline 		No matter how we try, no matter how we see ourselves, there are limitations placed on everyone by circumstances beyond our controls, be they governmental, economic, geographic, whatever.
What makes us what we are, what makes us strong, is how we are able to maximize ourselves within those circumstances, how we manage to "be all that we can be" without crossing lines which may have results beyond our capability to deal (Jail sort of sucks, ya know?). 
No matter how many books we read, or how much of the philosophy we embrace, the truth is that we live on earth, and we live in a society of laws and limits.  Some may see that as shackles...I think the strong see it as a challenge, to run as fast as we can, as close to the edge as we can get, without going over.  Those who prefer the "Fuck the rules, I am GOR, I do whatever I choose no matter what!" method, often find their situation self correcting.

John, AKA Dinnardin


(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 1/17/2010 7:58:11 AM   
ZeIda


Posts: 47
Joined: 12/1/2009
Status: offline 		Men do exert their influence and exercise their power in situations where they have no actual claim to. That includes here on CollarMe.
Many times I've seen men around these parts take actions that were within the circle of their swords.
The only thing you have to realize is that, because men have no actual claim to this place, they will often exert their influence and exercise their power much differently than if they would have an actual claim to this place.
What use is it to step up in a way that you know the mods would not allow?
Isn't the fact that the mods would come in to smack the person taking action on the hands a signal to the one they are taking action against that they are "safe" and free to do what they want around these parts?
And taking that into consideration isn't it smarter to take action in a different way; that does not cause conflict with the people who do have an actual claim to this place?

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 1/17/2010 8:24:02 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 6356
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		~ FR ~

It has always seemed to me that Goreans, as a rule, respect the customs of the people they are among. I see the situation not so much as a restraint on being Gorean as an opportunity to demonstrate it.

K.


(in reply to ZeIda)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 1/17/2010 11:36:02 AM   
Unbuilder


Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

It has always seemed to me that Goreans, as a rule, respect the customs of the people they are among. I see the situation not so much as a restraint on being Gorean as an opportunity to demonstrate it.

K.


Tal Kirata,

I think you should have typed that in bold underlined caps 4 inches high.... but then... there would be those that object to your method of presentation and ignore the content. Also, I would have used "imperative" in place of "opportunity" tho. 

Goreans in the books had laws, and consequences for breaking those laws.  They had government, taxes, obligations, and expectations of others to deal with.  Kinda sorta sounds like.... this society.  Kinda sorta.  On the other hand, the Gorean man on the street measured himself by what he contributed to the quality of his own life, and the life of his family and caste and city.  For the most part... all of the shit that would get a person jailed here, would get a person impaled or enslaved there.  And yet, Goreans lived their lives, raised children, had jobs... had a working society and as I interpreted the books... a high level of personal satisfaction.

There are occasions, "in the books", when Norman compares Gorean morality to the morality of Earth... and the earth morality didn't compare well with regards to the Gorean yardstick.  I reckon the best indication of that is how we measure our own value.  Goreans strove to accomplish all that was possible to improve their own lives, and thereby improving their society, while earth morality seems to be focused on sneaking around like a thief, or a slave, seeing how much it's possible to get away with, regardless of the consequences to their families or our society.  One is the "morality of masters" and the other is the "morality of slaves".  One can either make the yardstick, or measure themselves in terms of how they compare to the yardstick that the Master made.

I wish you well
Unbuilder




_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 1/17/2010 9:10:04 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6617
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It has always seemed to me that Goreans, as a rule, respect the customs of the people they are among. I see the situation not so much as a restraint on being Gorean as an opportunity to demonstrate it.


Well put.

As an additional point, it seems keeping one's word would apply.

Terms of service tend to be something one must choose to say that one will abide by.

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 1/17/2010 9:11:29 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 1/18/2010 11:13:45 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 6356
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Well put.

As an additional point, it seems keeping one's word would apply.

Terms of service tend to be something one must choose to say that one will abide by.

Thanks. And yeah, good point, I was speaking broadly, I didn't even think of that aspect of it.

K.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 1/18/2010 7:07:03 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6617
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks, Kirata.

I just remembered it from the conversation that probably sparked this thread, s'all.

Clearly, attempting to follow the customs of a place speaks more to the "texture" of the mindset.

The agreement thing is more like a simple reminder, as much for myself as anything, since with the ephemeral nature of all things online, it can be easy to lose sight of the fact that terms of service actually constitute a voluntary agreement. I certainly don't think any of us need to be reminded of the importance of honoring agreements, but that we have entered into one by being here is more readily overlooked. Truth be told, it would probably be a fairly peripheral concern if it weren't for the fact that it's a "place" I happen to appreciate and care about. A lot of us, myself included, have come to know people via this board that we respect and appreciate having "met."

Yeah, there's a hidden bit of flattery in that last phrase there.

Really, I've missed your comments in some of the threads I have read lately.

You've set me straight some times, and I do listen, more often than you might think.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 1/21/2010 4:59:18 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		~FR~

Do you take charge at work?

In an emergency on the road, do you take the lead?

When witnessing a violent crime, do you take action?

Thanks,

~K




_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 1/21/2010 8:34:33 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6617
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		-FR-

Maybe, yes and I hope so. In that order. To elaborate:

Violent crimes are rare around here. I can't comment usefully. Self defense is rather hard not to take charge of. Emergencies, certainly, as I have been the first responder in most cases I have run into. I still respect the first responder protocol unless the first responder is making a mess of things, though I would probably ask a hesitant one to step aside at a suitable time. Work depends on the nature of the work, the contract and so forth. Some jobs, certainly, others not so. In unforeseen circumstances, as necessary, per qualifications and so on. That is as much as is called for, and as much as I default to reaching for outside myself.

I do not lead without purpose or vision, without cause or inspiration.

But neither do I sit around waiting for a leader to appear.

As per another thread, I am Someone™.

It isn't all up to Someone Else™.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 2/27/2010 11:40:41 AM   
Silentrunner26


Posts: 163
Joined: 7/15/2009
Status: offline 		Is it just me or are them men in here (gor) all older ? Is there none to take the torch when I am gone ? My son is being raised by his mom and her girlfriend (I told out no hope for him -5 girls and him at the bottom ) so anything I try to teach him is wiped clean as soon as he is gone . so who is going to take up where we leave off ? Sorry about this just hit me as I was reading .

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 2/27/2010 8:41:29 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		And here we have the crux of a very large problem that concerns many countries. One I have seen with almost every female led single parent family around.

Women deciding they don’t want a man’s influence in their child’s life, or the man deciding he doesn’t want to live with the women and so cannot properly influence their child’s life as they don’t know how or are too tied up with their alternative lives.

As long as women bring up male children with very little or no influence from a good male role model we will have problems with men being bought up as if they were a woman.

Men are in essence emasculating their own male offspring. Or else leaving them unable to understand and control their own urges leading to anger and violence problems. Men need good male role models, it has much more of an impact than you would believe.

And in many relationships where the man hates his ex so much he tries to influence the child against her, all he does is make the child not wish to believe the man anyway, you don’t lead a child by telling as often that is all too obviously don’t do as I do, do as I say you lead by showing and spending time doing male bonding things.

Make time with you fun rather than trying to influence him into doing things you know won’t last, find out what his real interests are rather than what you want them to be and work with those so he wants to spend time with you, and whatever you do don’t dis the woman you once thought was good enough to bear your son and now dislike as that will only prejudice your case.

If you’re a miserable, angry man, why would he want to be around you? If you are fun and interested in him well you never know, kids look up to those they like and respect, not those who dislike and disrespect them and those they love.

And this is generic not personal, it applies to many men I have known rather than you personally.

Cheryl

(in reply to Silentrunner26)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 2/28/2010 12:46:53 PM   
Saffleur


Posts: 247
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Lenoir NC
Status: offline 		Tal All,

Cheryl, I agree with what you have said. In fact, I was almost a product of such a thing. My parents split when I was two. I was fortunate enough to have a father figure in my step-dad who I consider more my father than the one who helped make me. They hardly speak and I rarely see the man. Once in 9 years.

The man who stepped in as father figure though has been a constant and granite like figure in my life. He has passed on many things to me and as I've gotten older and past my younger wilder years our relationship has become better ten fold.

Silent, we exist, few but we exist.

Kirata, right with you there.

I wish you all well,
Scott


_____________________________

When we see men of worth, we should think of equaling them; when we see men of a contrary character, we should turn inward and examine ourselves.

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 3/1/2010 6:40:53 AM   
Nephilim


Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		I think it is much more complex or simple than presented.  First, results of single parent homes differ culturally.  A middle class white child in the US may grow up more femanine as a result of a single parent home but that is not the only technique of child rearing in the world.  Many cultures do not exert strong family influence and instead leave many things we think of as the place of the parents, to the community.  Take for example, urban black culture.  Many of those children are raised in single parent (female) homes and yet they turn out more masculine than many of their white suburban 2 parent counterparts.  In fact, I would see most of their culture as More Gorean than many others since it is much more geared toward natural order, where strength and what you do is important.  Also, in its approach to law, following a code of honor rather than law or religious morality.  So, single female homes, in themselves, do not produce weak femanine offspring.

Also, you suggest that a man should have fun with his kid while they are together.  I think that is a very poor approach.  Catering to children, I believe, is one of the things that lead to self-centered children who do not understand natural order.  I think instead a role model should be just that.  I think that taking your kid to work with you is a more positive experience than taking the kid to a theme park.  If you have honor and live your life, a child will see that and understand what is going on when a woman attempts to undermine that.  People have a very good intuitive understanding of things, and trying to convince them with words or even teach with words is often counter productive.

(in reply to Saffleur)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 3/1/2010 4:11:22 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6617
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Another misconception not worth killing. I wish I could say such gynophobia is surprising. Sadly, it is not.

Does the notion of masculinity rest so completely on fear as a guiding and defining element?

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Nephilim)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 3/2/2010 3:33:09 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Aswad, I am not sure if you are addressing that towards me or Nephilim.

I have no contempt towards women, I know most of these women are doing exactly what nature intended them to do, protect their children in whatever way they believe is right, but nature never intended children to be bought up by one sex alone, girls need strong women in their lives and boys need strong men, but they also need the opposite gender as well or their perceptions get understandably biased.

People need balance in their lives too much of anything is as bad as not enough. Sadly balance is not always possible but it’s good to try for it.

As for having fun with your kids being bad, your right Nephilim, instead let’s take them to work where they can be bored out of their minds and you can’t do your job effectively, or even better let’s start them working with us, we may as well get some money out of them while we can to repay us for their upkeep. Or instead sit them down in front of a play station with the latest games while you ignore them because we all know kids thrive on being ignored by their parents while the TV baby sits.

Having fun with your kids is obviously a bad idea, it just leads to kids nagging you to do more things with them instead of staring at a TV screen all night.

Cheryl

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 3/2/2010 6:07:39 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1710
Status: offline 		Hi Cheryl,

I believe gynophobia is fear of women, not contempt, though many times fear will mask itself as contempt.  

Take care,

Elizabeth

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 3/2/2010 8:50:29 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks Elizabeth,

I suppose I should have realized that gyno = female and phobia = fear. The contempt part of it must have come from some past conversation somewhere and just stuck in my head.

Cheryl

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 3/2/2010 9:28:11 AM   
Nephilim


Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		Cherylmazana,

You seem to have many misconceptions about how children learn.  Luckily, children are resilient and can thrive in many environments.  If your child is bored and only gets under foot when you are working, then I would say the problem is probably you.  Most children when accompanying their father attempt to mimic them and be helpful.  Unless you have rewarded their attention seeking behaviors. (which most women do)  Personally, I think people who have those problems can't handle a dog, let alone a child.  But, as I said, the kids involved will most likely turn out OK, it is hard to fail in our society.

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Within the Circle of His Steel - 3/2/2010 7:15:16 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Actually I would say it’s impossible to fail in our society, and that is the biggest failure of all.

We doom our children to a life of mediocrity, and so they become one of the “sames”.

After all are we not equal you and I?

Cheryl

(in reply to Nephilim)
Profile   Post #: 20
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