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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/17/2010 6:54:03 PM

Musicmystery

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Don't worry about it, heartfelt. It's just a side conversation.

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/17/2010 7:36:18 PM

AnnaOfAramis

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Thank you for the clarification Master. If this girl understand then, you are referring to that initial recognition in a girl of understanding what she needs prior to finding the Man who can master her? She is also wondering though if there are people too who wish to choose to be Free, but aren't able to maintain it in the face of some Men? But that is perhaps another rabbit hole

Thank you for taking the time to explain Master.

Well wishes,
anna

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/17/2010 8:25:54 PM

Cherylmazana

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Slavery or freedom in our western society isn’t something that can be determined from reading the books. In the books it’s quite simple if you have been legally enslaved you are a slave and if you haven’t been you are free, simple, here it’s a little more complicated.

Anyone can simply determine their wish to be a slave or free by simply saying on any one of the Gorean forums I am a slave or I am a free woman, and that’s the first step, after that you will be judged by those reading your words and watching your actions as to their validity.

Sometimes those who once believe they are slaves come to realize that freedom suits them better and so start to change and hope that other Goreans will come to see them as free and others realize that slavery suits them and so submit. Learning how to be a slave or free in your daily interactions away from the forums though is much more difficult, takes a lifetime and an understanding of the books only brought about by reading them personally.

Usually though you start out by picking what seems closest to your own natural inclinations and then usually don’t change for a very long time. Often the change is brought about by a man, causing women to submit or being freed by their companion or the breakup of an existing relationship and the realization that the woman is too hurt or angry to be an effective slave to anyone at that time (though in that case things can get even more complicated) and sometimes a woman realizes that it was only the man not her own inclinations that kept her enslaved.

There are many different reasons for choosing or changing often many as the people, the only time a change is usually not acknowledged and accepted is when a woman changes from slave to free as regularly, after all there is no legal slavery here it can only be consensual.

Cheryl

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/17/2010 9:12:23 PM

AnimusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis
She is also wondering though if there are people too who wish to choose to be Free, but aren't able to maintain it in the face of some Men? But that is perhaps another rabbit hole

Yes, it is, but what the hell.

Yes there are people who have stated that they would prefer to be free but that once they met their master, they were helplessly enslaved by his powerful Masterly aura, or mojo, or something.

As you can probably sense by my wording, I am skeptical of that sort of thing. I just haven't ever run across such people in real life.
However, since I can't claim to have met every single person and have authoritative knowledge of them, their Master, and their life, I can only take it at face value.

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/18/2010 3:29:05 AM

nephandi

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Greetings

quote:

She is also wondering though if there are people too who wish to choose to be Free, but aren't able to maintain it in the face of some Men? But that is perhaps another rabbit hole

What do you mean by not being able to maintain freedom in the face of some men? Do you mean that sometimes you meet that special someone and while you identify as free, you are willing to change all that you are and all that you are and be a slave for this person, yes that happens. It have also happened that pepole who desire to be slaves have changed to be able to stand by a man who want a Companion and not a slave. Or do you mean not being able to maintain it as in is not recognized as free by other Goreans, yes that happens to, to both men and woman, but you still have to choose for yourself, if one base all that one are on other's approval then one are not much free in the first place. Or do you mean not being able to maintain it as in the dashing men swoops down and kidnaps you on his tarn and make you his love slave? For society's rules still apply, unless someone is willing to go to jail for it, no one in the West can enslave another against their will.

I wish you well

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/18/2010 7:06:34 AM

Jahnaca

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FR

One of the biggest disservice the founding fathers (sort of speaking) did when they helped make a bunch of books into a viable and valuable choice in the way we live was, to focus on slavery. Yup the kinky parts which by in large brought us all together like flies to honey. In making this slavery thing so much more important then everything else we created the us vs them battle grounds on so many levels it’s jaw dropping.

Folks there is no battle ground, it just us and them. Period. The us’s will be us’s and happy to be there and the them’s them’s who are flourishing with delight over there. The us’s are not better, worse or anything else other then simply not being one of the thems and visa versa.

The OP question is yet another twist on trying to make the Gorean notion of freedom into well, ummm ya.... free equals Dom and Domme. Oh boy back to that slave thing again aren’t we. So now people are trying to figure out everything by battling the us vs them, oh I feel jello when he looks at me wooo I am a slave and yadda yadda yadda.

"Do not ask the trees or rocks how to live, for they have no voices. Do not ask how to live, but instead, proceed to do so."

Such a simple concept, do not ask just do. And that folks is what it is all about. Doing! You must first and with great cost strip away all preconceived notions on what you think you know and look deep deep deep down inside and rediscover what truly is within without being told what you are or determining what you are by a yard stick of someone else’s measure. You then can ask what it means to be free and what it means to be not. This doesn’t mean kinky slavery either.

Yes we are all self determined persons, who at times in our lives are one thing then the other. At times we may have been shoved into the wrong box by public pressure or maybe we simply didn’t understand what we are/were. Yet those strong enough proceeded to do so. We have done so at great personal cost and struggle. It has taken years of work and we are not done yet. We value this journey so highly we know to hold anothers hand cheapens it. Makes it into the “book of dummies” version. We can not do it.

The only way to adequately answer the question heartfelt, is to step out on that road and start at the beginning. Yup, read the books!

And to those who think having one’s legs turn to jello at the touch of a strong man makes you a slave....ummmm....ya. Ok.

Cheryl, you don’t “pick” anything, that is why we have problems to begin with. There is no picking here. There is either you are or are not. You don’t become because you filled out more check boxes on one side of the chart this week. Nor does what you are come from being “freed” from a simulation of slavery. You are because you just are. Period. Once you figure it out, everything else is just fluff.

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/18/2010 7:55:44 AM

AnnaOfAramis

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quote:

What do you mean by not being able to maintain freedom in the face of some men? Do you mean that sometimes you meet that special someone and while you identify as free, you are willing to change all that you are and all that you are and be a slave for this person, yes that happens. It have also happened that pepole who desire to be slaves have changed to be able to stand by a man who want a Companion and not a slave. Or do you mean not being able to maintain it as in is not recognized as free by other Goreans, yes that happens to, to both men and woman, but you still have to choose for yourself, if one base all that one are on other's approval then one are not much free in the first place. Or do you mean not being able to maintain it as in the dashing men swoops down and kidnaps you on his tarn and make you his love slave? For society's rules still apply, unless someone is willing to go to jail for it, no one in the West can enslave another against their will.

I wish you well

Greetings FW Nephandi,

This girl was meaning that from what she has read in the books as well as various discussions on this forum, and her own experience, she has found that a girl reacts to a Man as a slave and that by the time she is begging his collar, it is by that time a mere acknowledgment that he has already enslaved her rather than a choice. It is at that point the Man's choice whether he wants to keep the wench and place a steel around her neck, but not really a choice by the girl. While people can't "force" a girl to be a slave here legally as they can in the books, this girl has found that the process of being enslaved happens to one rather imperceptibly at first, until it is too late and has crept up on one and a girl looks around and realizes damn, how did that happen? It is the reason that a girl while technically having free choice to use the proverbial door does not- because, being enslaved, she cannot... though technically the choice is there. Which is why she felt that perhaps becoming a slave was more of a lack of her determination to be Free, because had she been really determined to remain Free, she would have been so. She hopes this clarifies what she was thinking.

Well wishes,
anna

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/18/2010 8:07:49 AM

AnnaOfAramis

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quote:

Yes there are people who have stated that they would prefer to be free but that once they met their master, they were helplessly enslaved by his powerful Masterly aura, or mojo, or something.

As you can probably sense by my wording, I am skeptical of that sort of thing. I just haven't ever run across such people in real life.
However, since I can't claim to have met every single person and have authoritative knowledge of them, their Master, and their life, I can only take it at face value.

Greetings Master,

Thinking about what you said, makes this girl think that in any case, probably if a person stated that they prefer to be Free and yet became helplessly enslaved by someone, well it would certainly throw into question just how cut out they were to be Free in the first place, or else they would not have become enslaved. So, it might be that such a person was merely fooling themselves and not really acknowledging what they were in truth. Thank you for helping this girl see it more clearly.

Well wishes,
anna

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/18/2010 9:16:03 AM

heartfeltsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jahnaca

FR

The OP question is yet another twist on trying to make the Gorean notion of freedom into well, ummm ya.... free equals Dom and Domme. Oh boy back to that slave thing again aren’t we. So now people are trying to figure out everything by battling the us vs them, oh I feel jello when he looks at me wooo I am a slave and yadda yadda yadda.

"Do not ask the trees or rocks how to live, for they have no voices. Do not ask how to live, but instead, proceed to do so."

* snipped for sake of brevity and bolded for emphasis

That was actually not my intent or the source of the question at all. I have been watching one person who calls themselves a Gorean Free Man say that another person who identifies as a Gorean Free Man, that he is just a slave or a fake. I have seen others tell people who are identified as slaves, that they aren't acting like what they are identified as, so it prompted me to be curious about Gorean identification and had absolutely nothing to do with Dom and Domme being equated to Free.

In fact, if I was Gorean, because I can run my own life, and can stand on my own, I would venture to guess that as submissive as I am, I would be indentifed as a Gorean Free Woman, but that is a guess as I am not entirely sure what is the qualifying characteristics of each identification, which is why I asked the question to begin with.

Thank you again for all the replies.

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/18/2010 10:07:23 AM

LillyoftheVally

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
have been watching one person who calls themselves a Gorean Free Man say that another person who identifies as a Gorean Free Man, that he is just a slave or a fake. I have seen others tell people who are identified as slaves, that they aren't acting like what they are identified as, so it prompted me to be curious about Gorean identification and had absolutely nothing to do with Dom and Domme being equated to Free.

I think heartfelt it is all in the wording of your questions which determine the responses you get. I have also read the Gorean threads since I first joined here, oh years and years ago. This issue, to do with self identification has been covered before, I think I may have even asked a question related to it myself.

However this latter part wasn't really in your op, nor is it really related to self identification more how others view you. I think it is true to say that for many Goreans it is a bit of a mix, it is a set of values such as loyalty and honour along with a sense of self, what you are. Of course I am wildly simplifying here.

The part I have highlighted above is actually something I know I have asked before, although I worded it differently, I asked if people had met other people that they believed would benefit from living a Gorean lifestyle, or those who encapsulate the values, the responses were really interesting and I can't actually write them here for fear of misquoting, suffice to say the response will answer your question above in a slightly more positive way, self identification is as I see it just one facet.

I have read some of the books, not all, and I will say that it does help a lot if you really want to understand more about all this.

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/18/2010 2:01:18 PM

Jahnaca

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quote:

That was actually not my intent or the source of the question at all. I have been watching one person who calls themselves a Gorean Free Man say that another person who identifies as a Gorean Free Man, that he is just a slave or a fake. I have seen others tell people who are identified as slaves, that they aren't acting like what they are identified as, so it prompted me to be curious about Gorean identification and had absolutely nothing to do with Dom and Domme being equated to Free.

See heartfelt, people use and abuse the word free and slave so much in the Gorean setting it's tough for even Goreans at times to figure what is implied. I suspect it is because a vast number of self proclaimed Goreans are not Gorean at all, they just wear the mantle as part of the costume.

The other problem is in usage. We use free and slave to define:
-social position
-literal legal status
-figeratively
-literally
-another way of saying neener neener
-an insult
-a status symbol
-as part of the secret handshaking ritual

shall I go on.

In simple terms being free/slave is not limited to gender or anything else, you are or you are not. In point of fact one can be in chains and still be free. One can be the Queen of England and still be a slave. The concepts of freedom and slavery are complex, and jello has nothing to do with it at all.

So next time you read the fluff like a Gorean man telling another guy he is a slave, look at the context, note the chest thumping (if applicable) and giggle at the fluffiness (if applicable). More then likely Gorean man A has just insulted guy B and he wasn't all to crafty at it to boot.

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/18/2010 7:27:03 PM

Cherylmazana

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Hi Jahna

When we start on this voyage of discovery based loosely on the Gorean series for the majority of people that’s how it starts, by picking a role. Most if they have come from the BDSM side choose slave or free based upon their sub or Dom interests. Someone who has found out through other methods and who has no interest in BDSM will choose based upon other criteria, often based upon the usually bad information they gained from whatever website they found or friend who mentioned it.

Its only later when they know more that they can look at who they are with knowledge and understanding of that first choice and realize what it means, some will never understand more than they did initially or change things to suit themselves so they feel more comfortable with their initial choice so they don’t have to look at themselves honestly.

But it all starts with picking a role without fully understanding what it entails, much as you seem to dislike that choice of word none of us come into this lifestyle at first without a very limited idea of what we are doing at first. I have never yet seen a woman on any Gorean forum state I am a woman and neither free or slave, they pick their status wisely or not and the rest of us judge them for that choice.

What is most prominent in all Gorean forums is the division between slave and free in women, there is very little time devoted to what makes a woman a slave or free apart from the usual cliché “a man’s choice” that tends to be thrown around. When in reality in our western world what makes a woman free or slave is her own determination of her status and the acceptance of that status amongst the Goreans she interacts with.

Cheryl

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/19/2010 7:00:43 AM

heartfeltsub

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Thank you for the more expanded explanations, they were very helpful.

heartfelt

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/19/2010 10:37:46 AM

Jahnaca

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I agree Cheryl, don’t get me wrong we are “told” we must be XY or Z and people just pick what seems kinky, fun at the moment, convenient, or just go along with the crowds proclamation of what you are. On the topic of women for a moment, we do try to adapt ourselves to fit the box more so then men do but we tend to squirm in discomfort too.

The question arises, just because you labeled yourself XY or Z were you really what ever the label said you were. I mean come on, if I were to be labeled a letter opener for years, try to act like a letter opener, am I one? I mean really am I one. Of course not, I am a human being pretending to be a letter opener because someone told me that is what I am. Once I come to the realization I am not a letter opener and all that pretending will never make me into a letter opener I have two choice, be what I am, or pretend to be what I am not.

In the area of “slavery” (note the quotations here) as we practice the institution we all know slavery is simulated, which might not be the best choice of words to use but oh well. Goreans use the word slave to mean a slavelike personality, also a station of status (that of being in the institution of slavery as we practice it) and being enslaved by SoandSo (some kind of emotional enslavement process). This means girl A will act like a slave or actually be a slave depending on the context your using the word slave.

So in walks Girl A, some guy tells her “all women are slaves” so she kneels, but deep deep down inside is a free woman. She has this gut feeling all is wrong with her on her knees but she adapts. Inside she is fighting a losing battle, that within her screams out for freedom.

What is she? Maybe she should start pretending to be a letter opener less wear and tear on the knees you know (wink) it all boils down the to the same thing.

To be honest Cheryl there are a lot more letter openers around Gorean parts then we dare think about. Free women all pretending to be slaves. They are shoving themselves and squirming so much in these tiny little boxes it’s mind boggling but hey, keep the status quo alive is a good thing right? There are also many slaves running around as free men and women (ahh men are totally not exempt either) the status quo runs strong and deep.

So no it’s not a matter of check boxes at all, it is a matter of self discovery and then acting on what you find to be what you are, not what someone else thinks you should be. Even if Joe Blow frees a slave to be free, if she was already at heart a free woman, she was never really enslaved to begin with, it was a formality to suit the status quo that’s all.

I see the flip flopping (free slave) status issue is more of the forced must take mantle rule then anything else. If you MUST by what ever untold rule there is, to pick a role without knowing what you are, in a community that prides themselves on all kinds of honesty, hate of deceit, a tree is a tree and all that good stuff. There is a HUGE issue in how we are applying something isn’t there. Maybe one day we can learn from our mistakes.

By and by if the “it’s a man’s choice” concept is true they have much to account for don’t they? It’s a whole messy nasty and not favorable topic all on it’s own.

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/20/2010 2:25:55 AM

Cherylmazana

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I get where you are coming from now Jahna and I agree, there are way too many people who are forcing themselves to be something they are not and it shows.
I however would take it further.

Personally I think women designed to be slaves are few and far between, most women are average women who want to please their man but are not deeply submissive naturally unless in the throes of early love/lust, nature didn’t design the majority of us to be that way, over time most turn into companions naturally, which most likely explains why even the books say most women are free and not slaves. There are some natural slaves but most clearly show they are trying and failing in spite of their best efforts.

The moment a woman has a child and she starts changing from lover to mother there will be a huge conflict of interests that so far I have not seen any slave manage well, and while I know both that statement and the next will also get people annoyed at me I think a 60 year old sex kitten slave is also stupid, women on Gor looked 20 at 100 we don’t and I for one don’t wish to see an ancient naked kajira. And I suspect not many elderly men do either when they could possibly see a younger version.

Sometimes I feel women so desperately want the fantasy to be true that they ignore the reality of their situation and who they truly are. Maybe it’s time to inject a whole lot of reality and smash those rose coloured glasses.

Cheryl

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/20/2010 1:16:04 PM

ElizabethAnne

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Hi Cheryl,

While I agree with some of your post, not all of it.

quote:

most women are average women who want to please their man but are not deeply submissive

I would say there are slaves that are not submissive at all; and can be quite dominant in nature. I'm not sure being submissive in nature is necessary for a slave, I believe it depends on the man. I don't personally believe a woman can be a slave...without be enslaved by a man.

quote:

There are some natural slaves but most clearly show they are trying and failing in spite of their best efforts.

Who is failing? The slave or the man that fails to keep her held in slavery? While this is not popular, it IS work to keep a woman held in slavery. But on whose shoulder does the responsibility lay? The way this reads, it is the SLAVE's responsibility to be a slave. I personally believe it is up to the MAN to make her into a slave. What I see more often, men don't really want SLAVES but rather, submissive women...ie...free companions. They may like to call them slaves, well, we have all see examples of how that works. ;-) But for the woman who NEEDS to be held in slavery, who need to be mastered, the relationship fails. Simply because the man does not keep her in "excellent mastery".

quote:

I think a 60 year old sex kitten slave is also stupid

And where does it say slaves have to be sex kittens? A mature woman cannot be sexual or sensual? Honestly Cheryl, I am surprised at this comment. Simply because a woman ages, that means a man no longer wants to keep her as a slave? Does Ute come to mind from the books? It does me. Why 60? Why not 50? What about 40? When is a woman too old for a man to no longer want to keep her as a slave? What about weight? Does that affect your idea of a slave as well?

Take care,

Liz

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/20/2010 3:09:01 PM

AlwaysLisa

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quote:

I think a 60 year old sex kitten slave is also stupid, women on Gor looked 20 at 100 we don’t and I for one don’t wish to see an ancient naked kajira.

I've met two women, both over 50, both would put some 20 yr olds to shame. Vibrant, well toned, excellent physical condition, soft spoken, well mannered, ect., very well thought of as fine representatives of the word, "kajira".

We live in a society where age is becoming a number, not much more. It's not like when women used to live to a grand old age of 30. People are learning more about what it means to take care of themselves. Ancient is no longer assured by age 60.

Lisa

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/20/2010 7:57:11 PM

Nemesys

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Indeed, Lisa. And besides, there is always plastic surgery - today's home Urth (sic) version of the "stabilization serums".

Regardless, age has no universal bearing on one's qualifications to be a kajira. Whether it may have an individual bearing is something else.

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/21/2010 12:48:43 AM

Cherylmazana

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Message deleted, who am I to disparage people’s dreams.

Cheryl

< Message edited by Cherylmazana -- 1/21/2010 1:12:33 AM >

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/21/2010 9:01:21 AM

Jahnaca

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Howdy Cheryl

I agree I believe most people are indeed free, though even in that mentality there are degrees of. Some are so low on the scale they easily can be changed into something else. I tend to view them as sheep like people.

In regards to gender, yes, umms do play an important role in changing us as human beings. It's part of the growing up process. Emotion changes in both men and women (though differently for sure). The reasons why we change so much when ums come along has more to do with what has kept us alive for so long, the time and resources it takes to rear an um from birth to adulthood is huge. It's logical therefore that within our own biological makeup we change to suit these new challenges. Depending on what your going to define as a slave though a given person may or may not fit that label even with an um around.

If we use as part of the slave criteria to be "sex kitten" (and I don't believe it should be used) we might have some difficultly with the notion of ums/mother/slave. Then again "sex kitten" can be many things too, including very loyal to ones mate but just hot under the collar with him to take on everything and anything. In all honestly "sex kitten" doesn't really make a slave, so one can be a 85 year old slave under Gorean thinking. Nor does it always mean nakid and collared, even kneeing at the literal feet of someone. These things are just practices found within a given community towards a select group of people. In fact it is those very practices that titalize us enough to make it the forefront. We base our status on these elements, often times quite wrongly. How often have we seen slaves sex kittens and fun, free women boring and frigid. For the new person, what do you think they will go after, the boring or the exciting? It goes on so often we now equate all elements surrounding slavery and freedom based only on the limited fun aspects, not on the less fun deeper understanding of it.

Yes many do want the fantasy and in doing so are forcing themselves into boxes they don't want to be in really but "deal" with it because they want to belong, fail to truly understand, don't want to be ousted, or really don't care as long as they get their rocks off. Yet as long as the rest of sit by and let misnomers fly around like gospel, keep turning the attention back to the fluff and what not, we haven't done a darn thing to stop it.

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Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

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