RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider

Collarchat.com

Create a
Free Account

As the Collar Turns:

Collarchat.com - BDSM Forum

Home Login Search

Espanol

Deutsch

Francais

Italiano

Portugues

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/22/2010 3:46:12 AM

Cherylmazana

Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline

Ok Jahna what do you believe is the main criteria of being a by the book Gorean slave, apart from the obvious of being legally collared.

What makes a man choose one woman to enslave and ignores another, and anyone who has read more than the first few books has read of times when free women were not collared even though they could have been without any trouble at all.

After all if Gorean slavery is based upon the books (apart from the legal requirement) shouldn’t that be the criteria that is looked for?

Cheryl

(in reply to Jahnaca)

Post #: 41

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/22/2010 8:28:33 AM

Jahnaca

Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline

Good questions Cheryl

The books speak of literal slaves and figurative slaves. The literal slave was enslaved by institution. Slap a collar on person A and they were legally enslaved.

If we use Tarl as an example, a person who found himself collared more then once you can say, yes, he was a slave by legal criteria. Once he was freed of the institution he became legally free once again. All of this speaks only of the literal practice of slavery.

The series does go deeper though in answering what is a slave. The master slave morality passage doesn’t talk of literal and legal, it speaks beyond that. We can then ask ourselves about Tarl, was he “a” slave under this morality even when he was found in the literal institution.

So I guess in answer to your questions you have to decide, are you going to base living as a Gorean on literal, or will you base it on figurative. Should I only base it on implementing practices found in the books you can stop at looking for a collar in determining what is a slave. Though, if you are going to base your life around the master/slave morality you simply can’t it becomes far more complex.

For me I don’t live and breath being Gorean in a microcosm of only Gorean interactions and practices, to me and my research the philosophy is a human one, which means it must function outside of a given communities practices in order to be valid. If the concepts of freedom and slavery only exist within a legal institution and only within a very limited number of human beings it no longer is a philosophical code of humanity but a practice within a select group. That notion simply contradicts very basic premises found within the codes to begin with, at least to me.

In the end I suspect both views on what is a slave are derived from the books. Now isn’t that a fine mess lol.

Jahna

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 42

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/22/2010 9:26:56 AM

ElizabethAnne

Posts: 1710
Status: offline

Hello,

There is also the slave that isn't collared, yet she is mastered. By the books we couldn't literally call her a slave, yet she is a mastered woman, ie, slave. I don't personally think a slave has to be collared, though she has to be mastered. After all a collar is only a physical tangent object of what already is there...mastery.

I had an interesting conversation regarding slaves and age, in fact I had the same conversation with a woman who was once a slave, and a man who has a slave. The question came up when talking earlier in this thread about age, using 60 as the bubble. Cheryl stated it was stupid. Which I totally disagreed with, I think physical attributes (including age) has little do with a person being a slave. So the question was, does a 60 year old slave have the same gut reaction to an alpha male, for the sake of this post, Gorean man. I believe the answer is yes; simply because a woman is mature, that is not going to affect her emotions. I am not saying the man will have the same reaction to a 60 year old slave as he will have to an "ish". But as I was talking to the man, he said, I was wrong, while it may not be a "carnal" reaction to a 60 year old slave, it will indeed be a reaction. I guess that surprised me, it was not the answer I thought at all. He went on to say, a slave that is striving to please, to obey is always a pleasure to be around. Interesting no?

Take care,

Elizabeth

(in reply to Jahnaca)

Post #: 43

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/22/2010 8:27:22 PM

Cherylmazana

Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline

Hi Jahana and Elizabeth,

One of my own personal problems (and I stress this is personal) is that I tend to see the slavery in the books in two separate ways, one is the way slavery is used to show the difference in the difference between Master and slave morality, that for me is the overriding message of the books, that is the message that I follow, the lifestyle aspects of M/s are not a part of my life unless I interact with slaves in a Gorean social setting. Then my attitude is that they have chosen to follow a certain path, and I will hold them accountable to following that path however I still believe that slavery has very little to do with the philosophy apart from in showing the differences between a master and slave morality and that no matter what your social status slavery is more than a collar around your neck.

The other and very superficial side is the actual slavery side, and for me a woman who wants to live that lifestyle as a slave should fit the superficial parameters of the books, young vibrant fit and beautiful in the way young people are beautiful. I know this is a very superficial way of looking at slavery but after years of reading the books I have yet to come across any old, unkempt slaves that don’t bother to look after their appearance, I however have come across this in reality a few times.

Now granted beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and in some men a 60 year old slave would be more beautiful that a 40 year old, and for some a 40 year old would also be too old, but the mind and body changes as you grow older, no matter how many injections of botox or plastic surgeries you go through underneath is the mind and the body of a person who nature has decided is on the way out. Once a woman’s reproductive cycle comes to an end things change physically and mentally and that is not something all the wishing in the world can change even hormone replacement therapy cannot undo all the changes. There once was a saying mutton dressed as lamb, while its politically incorrect to say so I personally still agree with it.

Cheryl

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)

Post #: 44

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/22/2010 11:24:44 PM

sweetgirlserves

Posts: 255
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jahnaca

Good questions Cheryl

The books speak of literal slaves and figurative slaves. The literal slave was enslaved by institution. Slap a collar on person A and they were legally enslaved.

If we use Tarl as an example, a person who found himself collared more then once you can say, yes, he was a slave by legal criteria. Once he was freed of the institution he became legally free once again. All of this speaks only of the literal practice of slavery.

The series does go deeper though in answering what is a slave. The master slave morality passage doesn’t talk of literal and legal, it speaks beyond that. We can then ask ourselves about Tarl, was he “a” slave under this morality even when he was found in the literal institution.

So I guess in answer to your questions you have to decide, are you going to base living as a Gorean on literal, or will you base it on figurative. Should I only base it on implementing practices found in the books you can stop at looking for a collar in determining what is a slave. Though, if you are going to base your life around the master/slave morality you simply can’t it becomes far more complex.

For me I don’t live and breath being Gorean in a microcosm of only Gorean interactions and practices, to me and my research the philosophy is a human one, which means it must function outside of a given communities practices in order to be valid. If the concepts of freedom and slavery only exist within a legal institution and only within a very limited number of human beings it no longer is a philosophical code of humanity but a practice within a select group. That notion simply contradicts very basic premises found within the codes to begin with, at least to me.

In the end I suspect both views on what is a slave are derived from the books. Now isn’t that a fine mess lol.

Jahna

A master morality is someone who lives purposely, driven by themselves, fueled by following their own instincts. A slave morality is someone who jumps on the pre-determined hamster wheel of life and simply goes through the day-to-day motions of life without thought or purpose. I equate the idea of following the master morality somewhat with Robert Frost's 'The Road Less Traveled'... It takes a lot to follow your own heart, your own instincts... it can be a very bumpy road indeed. At each obstacle, you can become a 'deer in the headlights', reduced back to a 'slave morality' , or you can face your fears, deal with the consequences and overcome. Those with the courage, tenacity, and everything that it takes (mentally, physically, spiritually, and in every other way that I cannot even begin to describe) to overcome each challenge and threat to 'conform' along the way, and instead continue on their life's journey with purpose, are the ones who possess a master morality.

No we are not equals... and only those who have truly lived their own life... not asking others... but finding 'how to live' within themself, and having what it takes to do so, are the true masters. I do believe it is likely that many slaves follow a master morality. And many who claim to be 'free' follow a slave morality.

~sgs

_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

(in reply to Jahnaca)

Post #: 45

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/23/2010 2:59:45 AM

Cherylmazana

Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline

Which begs the question sweetgirl can a woman who calls herself a slave really follow a master morality and also be a Gorean slave? After all the oft repeated quote and cliché is absolute beauty and absolute obedience (slightly mangled) are not absolute obedience and master morality in opposition to each other?

As for the free that follow a slave morality, they usually do not accept they do, and vigorously refuse to see what can be obvious to everyone else. Self deception is after all a pretty good survival mechanism, and all of us at one time or another fall prey to it.

Cheryl

(in reply to sweetgirlserves)

Post #: 46

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/24/2010 7:06:10 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1548
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

Which begs the question sweetgirl can a woman who calls herself a slave really follow a master morality and also be a Gorean slave? After all the oft repeated quote and cliché is absolute beauty and absolute obedience (slightly mangled) are not absolute obedience and master morality in opposition to each other?

As for the free that follow a slave morality, they usually do not accept they do, and vigorously refuse to see what can be obvious to everyone else. Self deception is after all a pretty good survival mechanism, and all of us at one time or another fall prey to it.

Cheryl

While i realize that i am not a Gorean slave, and don't think i would ever become a Gorean slave, however i am someone who is exceedingly submissive, but i am also one who lives by the creed of following the road less traveled and doing what i believe is the "right" thing to do. That is part of why i am very slow to get into a Dominant/submissive relationship, meaning that i don't get into a relationship with someone whose morality i can't follow. And yes i understand that is completely different than a Gorean Master/slave relationship. But i thought it was a very good question and why i said that i would probably be qualified as a Free Woman if i were Gorean even though i am very submissive.

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 47

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/24/2010 7:29:50 AM

ElizabethAnne

Posts: 1710
Status: offline

Hello Cheryl,

quote:

I know this is a very superficial way of looking at slavery but after years of reading the books I have yet to come across any old, unkempt slaves that don’t bother to look after their appearance, I however have come across this in reality a few times.

Actually you are right, this is a very superficial and shallow way of looking at slaves. My thought is this, if a slave is allowed to let herself go, ie, unkempt, whose fault is that? The slave's? Their Master? I have always believed the MAN made the slave, the slave doesn't make herself.

quote:

Once a woman’s reproductive cycle comes to an end things change physically and mentally and that is not something all the wishing in the world can change even hormone replacement therapy cannot undo all the changes.

I suggest you do some reading about menapause, and talk to some women that have ..been there done that. From what you have posted, you seem to think it's the end of a woman's sexual desires, and nothing is ever the same. I suppose that may depend on the woman, and if she wants to try to use it as an excuse. I assure you, postmenapausal women do not shrivel up and die. Frankly you are right, I am not the same woman I was at 30, or even 40; I am better. More relaxed, more confident, in my person and in my sexuality. Yep, a free woman talking about her sexuality. Shocking that. By learning more about it, and what those changes actually are, you might not be so scared, as your posts about aging infer.

quote:

matter how many injections of botox or plastic surgeries you go through underneath is the mind and the body of a person who nature has decided is on the way out

Umm.....nature will have to wait many years for me, I am still looking forwards to that nursing home and the cane to chase those young whippersnappers around the bed. ~heh~

Take care,

Elizabeth

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 48

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/24/2010 7:50:48 PM

Cherylmazana

Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline

Hi Elizabeth

I don’t think I ever mentioned anything to do with a woman’s sexuality before, during or after the menopause, I have known many women with extremely healthy sex lives in their 60’s and older (especially as I was a volunteer helper for group of disabled and elderly women, their discussions on sex and relationships got very frank) and just as many who dislike sex in their 20’s. Primarily I have found that a good sex life goes with a good lover, and that also the reverse is also true, age may bring flexibility problems, and sometimes vaginal dryness for women or the ability to sustain an erection in men but those have very little to do with wanting and needing to have sex as a regular part of your life. I remember once seeing a documentary about one of those rare villages where everyone lives to well in their 100’s and one of the ninety year old men based his long life on good sex, fine cigars and the local spirit, his younger woman was in her early 80’s and they had no problems.

If you are basing it on my sex kitten or mutton dressed as lamb remarks, then you might have a point, a giggling short skirted empty headed bimbo should be 18 not 60 and if she has reached 60 and not allowed herself to mature and accept who she now rather than who she was 40 years ago there is something inherently sad about a life wasted by holding on so tightly to the past that she has never allowed herself to enjoy what is now and the benefits that aging brings. To long to be something other than what you are to such an extent seems to me to be a waste of potential. There are many extremely classy and sexy older women around, but giggling/ battling eyelashes/acting all coy or dressing like a slut does not make you sexy sometimes it can just make you look pathetic.

I am also surprised that you seem to think I am scared about ageing, especially as I have found that I much prefer myself now in my 40’s than I did in my 20’s, I dislike the way my body is starting to behave though, the aches that don’t always disappear after sleeping, the fact that I have already shrunk an inch, the fact my daughter can run circles around me and after a good night out can look as fresh as a daisy while I look like death warmed over. It’s not something I enjoy, but it’s also not something I am afraid of, while I would welcome a serum that genuinely slows the aging process I find plastic surgery that hides it to be amusing more than anything, a desperate grasp at anything to stop nature. For me it is putting a coat of paint on a house to hide the cracks and shaky foundations underneath. You may look 20 on the surface, but underneath you are older, we have no way of stopping nature without injecting ourselves with potentially dangerous chemicals or pulling and slicing away at skin to give you a softer version of the star trek Son'a treatments.

Cheryl

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)

Post #: 49

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/25/2010 5:04:08 AM

ElizabethAnne

Posts: 1710
Status: offline

Hello Cheryl,

Perhaps the crux of the issue is because you haven't interacted with that many slaves ..except on line. What you have described as a slave is not the type of slave I have encountered over the years. Quite the opposite really. The slaves I have known personally, and I have known many over the years, are quite intelligent capable women. And they dress as their Master chooses, some dress scantily, others have worn much the same as a free woman. What a woman wears or doesn't wear has no bearing on her slavery.

The woman you have described as the empty headed bimbo is not accurate in the least. Before making rash and narrow minded statements, it might be better to actually know what you are talking about, and not using an on line perception as reality.

Take care,

Elizabeth

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 50

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/25/2010 7:38:58 PM

Cherylmazana

Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline

Elizabeth I have gone to face to face Gorean gatherings, this is not an on-line thing I am talking about, while many were years ago and most do not tend to post here but rather instead to other forums I am not talking about my perceptions of slaves from on-line.

The sad thing is that while many whom I met agreed with me privately that some of the slaves we met were not slaves but instead often girlfriends and that their owners couldn’t master a dog let alone a person, I doubt they would say that publically because it would hurt their friends. For example one small thing that happened was a “slave” at a gathering stating publically that we are all getting scrambled eggs for breakfast because she won’t cook anything other type and all of the men shrugged and afterwards said privately that she was not a slave but she liked being called one and it did no harm, it makes you wonder exactly how some people define what a slave is.

I have met some amazing slaves though some beautiful confident women, one who made me smile and whose hospitality was amazing and some really nice people. In the main though I met men who liked the idea of being Gorean and a Master and women who liked the fantasy of being a slave while not actually wanting to do any work towards actually achieving this state.

You have assumed that because what I have experienced is different to what you have that I must be wrong, but the truth is that for every person who calls themselves Gorean and is there are many more that call themselves Gorean and sound very good on-line, but when you meet them face to face the reality is shown to be something else. Thinking of that Malconius (sorry if I spelled your name wrong I cant find a post to see the correct way) who meets many people regularly would probably have better statistics on how many he has met have any real understanding of what being Gorean entails.

Cheryl

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)

Post #: 51

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/25/2010 10:53:21 PM

Malkinius

Posts: 1564
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline

Greetings Cheryl....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

Elizabeth I have gone to face to face Gorean gatherings, this is not an on-line thing I am talking about, while many were years ago and most do not tend to post here but rather instead to other forums I am not talking about my perceptions of slaves from on-line.

The sad thing is that while many whom I met agreed with me privately that some of the slaves we met were not slaves but instead often girlfriends and that their owners couldn’t master a dog let alone a person, I doubt they would say that publically because it would hurt their friends. For example one small thing that happened was a “slave” at a gathering stating publically that we are all getting scrambled eggs for breakfast because she won’t cook anything other type and all of the men shrugged and afterwards said privately that she was not a slave but she liked being called one and it did no harm, it makes you wonder exactly how some people define what a slave is.

I have met some amazing slaves though some beautiful confident women, one who made me smile and whose hospitality was amazing and some really nice people. In the main though I met men who liked the idea of being Gorean and a Master and women who liked the fantasy of being a slave while not actually wanting to do any work towards actually achieving this state.

You have assumed that because what I have experienced is different to what you have that I must be wrong, but the truth is that for every person who calls themselves Gorean and is there are many more that call themselves Gorean and sound very good on-line, but when you meet them face to face the reality is shown to be something else. Thinking of that Malconius (sorry if I spelled your name wrong I cant find a post to see the correct way) who meets many people regularly would probably have better statistics on how many he has met have any real understanding of what being Gorean entails.

Cheryl

That is Malkinius....<grins>

I do have a clue. While I have not met as many people offline in Gorean settings as a very few people, I have met many many more than most. At this point that number is somewhere over 200 but I am no longer sure how many.

The honest answer is that most I have met are not Gorean. Some of them were there trying to learn more about becoming Gorean. Some just play at it online or when they meet with other Goreans. Some didn't even claim to be Gorean, they were just there for whatever reason, usually friends. Some just lied about who and what they were. I think maybe one in ten has a serious clue and lives as a Gorean. Another one or two in ten have a clue and either live as a Gorean or want to and are/were working at getting there. After that....may or may not have a clue but were not Gorean except maybe online....which means not Gorean to me.

I think everyone should understand that some of the people who I have met whom I would not call Gorean were still good people. Some were people I would happily call a friend if we interacted enough. Some I would call Gorean are not people I think are either good people or people I want to have anything to do with. Not...those who we each might call Gorean probably overlaps but are not the same. Yes, some I thought were Gorean have turned out not to be. Some I did not think were have become so. It is one of those very fluid things that all we can say is that at this or that point in time someone seemed to be or seemed not to be Gorean.

I hope all that wasn't too confusing. <grins>

Be well...

Malkinius

_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 52

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/26/2010 3:27:13 AM

Cherylmazana

Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline

Oh my you have my apologies Malkinius I did mangle your name badly, while I have not met anywhere as near the same amount as you have (not even close) I think I would agree with you.

One thing I would add though is that just because someone calls themselves Gorean and in my view fails completely to live up to my own personal expectation of what being Gorean is it doesn’t mean I can’t like them and enjoy them as friends even if I do consider them totally self delusional about who or what they think they are.

Cheryl

(in reply to Malkinius)

Post #: 53

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/26/2010 9:11:46 AM

Jahnaca

Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

she was not a slave but she liked being called one and it did no harm, it makes you wonder exactly how some people define what a slave is.

Let’s pretend for a moment. Pretend there are 3 moons above our heads and we are all characters in a novel. Cheryl just whispered the above to me. I look at the wench and note the pretty band of steel around her neck and say, well she is a slave, just a coddled one. Why would I say that? Simple, legally speaking she the wench in question is bound by law into the institution of slavery. How she acts has no bearing on what she is, she is a slave. So yes it is perfectly acceptable to define even a piss poor wench a slave if they are such under institution.

Now lets fly back to reality. In essence Goreans as a whole embrace the institution of slavery. We don’t have any legal backing what so ever so how we practice this institution is by mutual consent. This means man A accepts the wench B as a self professed slave and as such puts her under the institution of slavery. How she acts doesn’t change what she is as long as she remains under this institution. Which is exactly what you saw during your gathering, a piss poor example of a slave. Follow me so far. Two statuses, in the institution of slavery or not. Slave or free by institution.

What really bugs me about statements “well she isn’t really a slave” based on some kind of idea on what someone thinks a slave is, is that in all honestly, if your M/s, your talking institution period. Why do I say this, well quite frankly I would be highly annoyed if being free means one only makes scrambled eggs, because if your not a slave under institution, your free. Basically I am saying this macrocosm of M/s within Gorean interaction doesn’t even begin to display what is a free person what is a slave. Well at least how it is right now, and in the past, and well in the near future too.

As long as people view this master thing as a badge of manhood and absolute right with a lot sex and this slave thing as ohhh sex every night with kinky twists and a reason to be “submissive” when I want, institution will never actually fulfill philosophy in a Gorean setting. It can’t, most people part of the institution (m and s) are actually enslaved by it. Yup slaves to the idea. Cool huh.

Jahna

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 54

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/26/2010 9:18:13 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

Wow, i hate to say it but you two are really thinking way to hard on this. Seriously ladies, way to hard lol. Being a slave of a Gorean is really simple and not as complicated as two women who i presume don't and have never owned slaves want to make a big to do as to what makes someone a slave.

You both may want to try owning and mastering a slave, prior to trying to determine what one is to someone who identifies as Gorean. You may find a whole different world of understanding once you understand the mastering and owning from a free person's concept.

Its really not as complicated as you both are determined to make it. Not to Gorean Men OR their slaves. I usually see people who want to make it complicated an online concept.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 1/26/2010 9:21:39 AM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to Jahnaca)

Post #: 55

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/26/2010 11:41:14 AM

Jahnaca

Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline

Hate to break the news to you angel but it's not complicated nor is it only based on master slave interactions within the Gorean community. One need not own a slave to understand freedom and slavery. As I have shown, being cough owned cough within the Gorean community does not a slave always make.

Certainly though if you choose to base Gorean philosophy surrounding slaves and free around kneeling wenches, please do so. Me I don't ask livestock what it means to be free.

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 56

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/26/2010 12:07:57 PM

Demspotis

Posts: 49
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

The other and very superficial side is the actual slavery side, and for me a woman who wants to live that lifestyle as a slave should fit the superficial parameters of the books, young vibrant fit and beautiful in the way young people are beautiful. I know this is a very superficial way of looking at slavery but after years of reading the books I have yet to come across any old, unkempt slaves that don’t bother to look after their appearance, I however have come across this in reality a few times.

In the books, there is the anti-aging "Stabilization Serum", which keeps the vast majority of people (free and collared alike) young and vibrant. Since we don't have such a serum available to us, it doesn't make practical sense to expect slaves to all be young.

On the other hand, since we're all subject to aging, we are or should be tolerant of the aging of others, even slaves. The more so, the older we ourselves get, of course. Certainly, having reached my mid-30's, I've seen my tastes grow to include more and more women who show more and more age. While still, of course, appreciating the special - but temporary - charms of the young.

Excuse me while I go bait my "cougar" trap... ;-)

~Demspotis

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 57

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/26/2010 7:39:20 PM

Cherylmazana

Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline

Angel you have now become the second person to assume something, I did once own a slave who lived in my house and who called me Mistress every time he spoke to me, he called me Mistress in front of my family and friends as well, I refused to let it be a secret slavery. What I learned from it was something I expected to learn, he was no slave. We both enjoy playing convoluted head games with each other, this time though he underestimated me badly. What he learned is not to ask to be my slave for any other reason than him genuinely wanting to be one because I don’t confuse love with slavery, and if you try to mess with what I genuinely believe in you could regret it.

I think we both came out of it with a new understanding of each other and ourselves with one added bonus for me when he realized he wasn’t submissive something I think he had always wondered, and that I was serious about the Gorean philosophy, in the end it turned out to be a good thing for us both. If he had turned out to be a suitable slave I would have stopped calling myself a Gorean and instead simply been a BDSM Dominatrix as in my eyes the philosophy and women owning slaves are incompatible because I believe that the books show a woman shouldn’t own a male slave, that the books are trying to help men regain their masculinity and not be emasculated by women. As a temporary situation to determine how someone truly feels its fine, as a permanent situation I would be betraying my own beliefs to call myself a Gorean free woman and yet own my husband as a slave.

Cheryl

(in reply to Demspotis)

Post #: 58

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/26/2010 8:23:53 PM

sweetgirlserves

Posts: 255
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

Which begs the question sweetgirl can a woman who calls herself a slave really follow a master morality and also be a Gorean slave? After all the oft repeated quote and cliché is absolute beauty and absolute obedience (slightly mangled) are not absolute obedience and master morality in opposition to each other?

As for the free that follow a slave morality, they usually do not accept they do, and vigorously refuse to see what can be obvious to everyone else. Self deception is after all a pretty good survival mechanism, and all of us at one time or another fall prey to it.

Cheryl

I understand your point, but yet I think the only answer is that whether a slave can follow a master morality would need to be determined on a case by case basis. From my own experience, jumping off the hamster wheel of life to follow my inner drives, needs and instincts... to figure out my 'path' and follow it, has taken a whole lot more kahunas (have no idea how to spell that) than I ever have needed for anything in my life.

_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 59

RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/27/2010 6:29:56 AM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Now lets fly back to reality. In essence Goreans as a whole embrace the institution of slavery. We don’t have any legal backing what so ever so how we practice this institution is by mutual consent. This means man A accepts the wench B as a self professed slave and as such puts her under the institution of slavery. How she acts doesn’t change what she is as long as she remains under this institution. Which is exactly what you saw during your gathering, a piss poor example of a slave. Follow me so far. Two statuses, in the institution of slavery or not. Slave or free by institution.

Hi Jahnaca,

I agree with this - since there is no "legal" slavery nor nonconsensual slavery, the closest equivalent would be a woman who self identifies as a slave, who is with a man who also identifies her as a slave and who identifies himself as her owner.

Since this is the equivalent of 'status slavery' rather than 'mastery' it's possible to have the pseudolegal status of "slave" and still be unmastered. Which begs the question - is it because the woman is a FW at heart, is it because the man is doing a poor job of enslaving her, or is it a combination of both?

I think this was a great post, and it makes me view the two recent drama debacles in a different light.

I wish you well,
Bella

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to Jahnaca)

Post #: 60

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2012

Collarchat.com is a member of the Free Speech Coalition

Terms of Service

0.422