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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider


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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/27/2010 6:37:46 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves


I understand your point, but yet I think the only answer is that whether a slave can follow a master morality would need to be determined on a case by case basis. From my own experience, jumping off the hamster wheel of life to follow my inner drives, needs and instincts... to figure out my 'path' and follow it, has taken a whole lot more kahunas (have no idea how to spell that) than I ever have needed for anything in my life.



Hi sgs,

I'd think there would also be a difference between a person who set their own version of a master morality, and a person who just went through the motions of what they thought they 'should do.' It's kinda like the "boys don't cry" thing - many men see never crying as an act of self mastery when it's more likely just cultural indoctrination. Their 'strength' is a result of passively following the crowd. Whereas a man who can cry, at the appropriate moment, is setting his own morality.

I also imagine that it would take a lot of nerve for a woman to turn her back on the expectations that her family, friends and culture have of her, to go off and be some man's property, but I think there are different lenses through which to view it.

Prima could say "I've made a conscious decision that I would prefer to dedicate my life to following this single dream of being a beautifully obedient slave to a strong man, I realize that I will lose friends and family over it, but this is the path I choose to follow and I accept the consequences."

Secunda would say "God I really don't want to be a slave, but I can't override this desire, and every time I meet a strong man I lose my self determination...but I have to hide it from my friends because they'll think I'm weird...but at least the guy will take care of me, so I guess it's not so bad."

The interesting thing about that is that I'd say Prima would be more attuned to a deeper enslavement, since she actively accepts that part of herself, but I'd also say that Prima is more self-mastering than Secunda. Huh.

I wonder, does anyone else see a difference in the approach a woman would take to slavery, or is it just a "she ended up a slave, so she's a slave" without any type of differentiation?

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 1/27/2010 6:39:20 AM >

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/27/2010 9:39:29 AM   
Nephilim


Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		Whether being a slave and having master morality is possible is an exercise in semantics.  By literal chattel terms, a slave can have any morality.  In a figurative sense that one has given up all control, then by definition they would have slave morality.  By the most applicable definition of slavery in this case, someone who identifies as slave and those around them accept that identification, a slave can be anything they like.

Master/slave morality is a Nietzschian concept.  Master morality doesn't mean not being influenced by society, it simply means not having morality set by others.  Basically it is about rejecting religion and law as basis for morality.  If you follow the morality of the God, or that of Gor, then you do not have a master morality as define by Nietzsche.  That is why religious leaders didn't care too much for his philosophies, you know, that whole pushing atheism thing.  Most characters in the Gor books did not have a Master morality (even the "Masters").  The books are more about the natural order and existentialist aspects of Nietzshian philosophy, but if you really want to delve into the philosophies, the books are not really a good place to do that.  They present ideas and situations in a very simple way often without giving an answer to what is right or better and often contradict earlier statements and just generally express the way many people feel.

The value of the type of internal thought processes and approach to "slavery" that a woman takes is a matter of taste of those who she seeks to find.  Some want a woman who simply submits and does as told.  Others want slaves to feel an internal burning desire to serve.  The majority just want an attractive woman or two to please them. 

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/27/2010 1:46:01 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7226
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I think the issue is being convulted by too much. I think that also the Master-slave morality is not fully understood by some.

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/27/2010 2:05:02 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Tal,

Do to the fact that we have no "Stabilizing Serum" here on Earth and our medicare system being highly over taxed...I have contacted President Obama and urged that he enacts as matial law a requirement that would require  all women over say the age of 50 to be shipped off to Gor immediately.

Upon their arrival you can inject these women with your "Stabilizing Serum" and give them a mandatory membership to your local "Curves."  If this fails fear not!!! It is apparent you guys will bang just about anything.

No need to thank me for the abundance of slaves that will soon be teeming around your lil' homeworld and stone.

It's what I do.


Ja,

The Great Earthly Ambassador To Gor Lord Domiguy

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/27/2010 2:10:27 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 2931
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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		I was free but now I am 19.99. I am not sure what the currency is in Peroia though.

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/27/2010 8:43:08 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Jahna if this was Gor and slavery was legal I would agree with you, the books have plenty of examples of piss poor slaves and men that cannot master just because you are Gorean doesn’t mean that you are amazing at keeping a woman under perfect mastery.

But this isn’t Gor we use a slavery simulation we tend to call consensual slavery, and so I expect a person who calls themselves a slave to be one to the best of her ability, if she doesn’t then she fails to be what she says she is and her owner fails to be her master.

If I met a woman who calls herself a vegan yet three times a week has a full English breakfast with meat and eggs I would say she is no vegan, if I meet a slave who believes it is her choice to decide what she will and won’t do in a Gorean gathering then she is no slave, and if her owner backs up her decisions then he is no master. And I am not talking here about sexual serving as that is simply protecting the health of your slave, or a slave refusing to jump off a cliff and save her life or refusing to do anything else that is dangerous, as a slave who would follow those orders is not a slave but a moron. I am talking about simple requests or expectations such as being provided with a drink or well cooked food.

Cheryl

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/27/2010 11:48:02 PM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 255
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline 		Hi Elisabella,

Congratulations, btw, Mrs. SixFoot!!!

I definitely think there is a difference ... a FW who stands on the tall bridge, so to speak, is exercising a master morality, imo. A girl captured and enslaved (against her will-in other words, she wasn't looking for slavery) is not. In reality, there are girls who experience the former... they are the girls we see on message boards such as this. There are girls who experience the latter... we probably never hear from them on places like these. Maybe a couple find their way here when they realize what has happened to them, but most... probably not. Or of course, they may be here disguised as FW, not willing to admit their true condition.

Which has the deeper enslavement? I don't think it matters what the women's role was in the process... the depth of the enslavement depends solely, imo, on the man's ability to master her.

Also, I think too many people think that once a girl is enslaved she no longer pursues her own dreams and abilities... and I think that is probably not true. Leonidas often said that a slave should be better off with her Master than without Him... I am finding that with the right Master, a woman who is slave has the foundation she needs in her Master to allow her to pursue her dreams (career, travel, education, whatever)... but of course, that takes a Master who encourages her to do so. (I would say a Master who is confidant in his mastery of her and does not feel the need to 'hold her down' in order to feel secure in his ownership of her as well as the girl's dreams/desires are in alignment and/or compatible with her Master's thoughts/plans on how he wishes to use her.) Come to think of it, I would think the slave of a Gorean man, would more likely than not, be encouraged by her master to continue to practice a master morality.

~sgs

< Message edited by sweetgirlserves -- 1/28/2010 12:03:33 AM >

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/28/2010 8:36:59 AM   
ZeIda


Posts: 47
Joined: 12/1/2009
Status: offline 		This just clearly shows that you don't really get the concept of slavery.
Slavery is not a title one claims; instead it's a description of what one IS.

To make this simple, let’s take a look at the dictionary definition of the word slave:

slave (slv)
n.
1. One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.
2. One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence : "I was still the slave of education and prejudice" (Edward Gibbon).
3. One who works extremely hard.
4. A machine or component controlled by another machine or component.

Nothing in the definition of the word slave states that in order to be a slave one needs to obey all those who are not a slave. Instead, the only requirement to make somebody a slave is that that person is bound in servitude, or subservient to a force outside themselves.
While I don't know the girl in the example you mentioned, I do know that it is perfectly possible for her to be a slave and yet still refuse to make you eggs, or to do anything else for you.
If she is bound by an influence outside herself, she IS a slave. Period.

Goreans usually have the social expectations that slaves obey all free. And this girl clearly failed to live up to that expectation. As such, she failed to live up to the general Gorean social standard and she was obviously judged on that.
However, the fact that she failed to live up to that expectation doesn't take away any of her 'slavehood' because being a slave is not a title that one claims, or a title that can be taken away from you, instead it is a description of the actual state one exist in at that moment in time.

If you would bring me a Rafflesia arnoldii and tell me that it isn't a flower because it doesn't smell good, I would laugh at you.
While your culturally dictated social perception of a flower might leave you feeling that a quality flowers should have is a good smell, this still doesn't change the fact that the term 'flower' is a description of the nature of a thing, not a title given to something based on random (culturally dictated) assumed qualities or the lack thereof.

You might not consider this girl to be a good slave, or a pleasing slave, or a girl worthy to be kept as a slave, but if she is under the influence of a force outside of herself, she IS a slave none the less, even in the Gorean contect.
Even the books support this point. There were many instances where kajirae failed to live up to the social expectations Goreans have of slaves. Most the times this situation was corrected by the free, but never was the fact that these girls were still slaves questioned.

To sit there and claim that a person who is using the word slave to describe the state they are living in somehow has the obligation to live up to values YOU ascribe to that term, but that aren't reflected in the definition of the word, is ridiculous.
And yes, it's a very different thing then claiming you are vegan and eating meat because the very definition of the word vegan defines that a vegan is a person who doesn't eat meat.
This doesn't apply for the word slave, in any context, not in the bdsm one, not in the Gorean one and not in the vanilla one. Nowhere does the definition of the word slave require a person living in a state of slavery to be obedient to all; all that is needed is that they are ruled by external force.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

Hi Jahna if this was Gor and slavery was legal I would agree with you, the books have plenty of examples of piss poor slaves and men that cannot master just because you are Gorean doesn’t mean that you are amazing at keeping a woman under perfect mastery.

But this isn’t Gor we use a slavery simulation we tend to call consensual slavery, and so I expect a person who calls themselves a slave to be one to the best of her ability, if she doesn’t then she fails to be what she says she is and her owner fails to be her master.

If I met a woman who calls herself a vegan yet three times a week has a full English breakfast with meat and eggs I would say she is no vegan, if I meet a slave who believes it is her choice to decide what she will and won’t do in a Gorean gathering then she is no slave, and if her owner backs up her decisions then he is no master. And I am not talking here about sexual serving as that is simply protecting the health of your slave, or a slave refusing to jump off a cliff and save her life or refusing to do anything else that is dangerous, as a slave who would follow those orders is not a slave but a moron. I am talking about simple requests or expectations such as being provided with a drink or well cooked food.

Cheryl




< Message edited by ZeIda -- 1/28/2010 8:42:27 AM >

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/28/2010 12:41:29 PM   
MAWarGod


Posts: 174
Joined: 1/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I think the issue is being convulted by too much. I think that also the Master-slave morality is not fully understood by some.


after reading the thread I agree with You...

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/28/2010 8:01:36 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Exactly Zelda, a slave is someone who is ruled by an outside force. We have consensual slaves ones who choose to be ruled, they are not legally obliged to be there and they are not slaves by any legal term we recognize, they may be slaves to their own desires and needs but being enslaved to a need, such as a heroin user or a person trapped in a job they hate so they can pay the bills is not the type of slavery that we are talking about. We are talking about a simulation of real slavery where the person enslaved has as many legal rights as cattle.

A Gorean slave depending on how you define it is either ruled by her Master or has a slave morality, I am still unsure if it is necessary for a Gorean slave to have a slave morality, it’s an awkward one as the absolute obedience and lack of forced enslavement leads me to expect a slave morality from slaves along with the lack of honour etc. I am leaning towards the philosophical side more than the lifestyle side though which will probably irritate slaves who consider themselves to have a master morality and yet who have chosen to give away their freedom. Interesting contradiction that in itself, I wonder how they reconcile the two apart from the finding freedom in chains which again leads towards the whole liking to follow orders and be a sheep, slave mentality type of thing that Norman discussed in his books.

The slaves in the books could have a master morality as John Norman was trying to show that being legally enslaved does not necessarily mean you have become a slave, and that being free didn’t mean you were, society’s chains could bind you tighter than any legal enslavement. But there is no forced enslavement here, this is a choice and we should judge them by their own choices and actions.

So when a slave is ruled by nothing other than her own wishes is she a slave in a Gorean sense no matter what side you lean towards? Who is she then enslaved by?

Cheryl


< Message edited by Cherylmazana -- 1/28/2010 8:05:29 PM >

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/29/2010 9:19:56 AM   
ZeIda


Posts: 47
Joined: 12/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

Exactly Zelda, a slave is someone who is ruled by an outside force.


This reply contradicts your previous statement.

quote:

if I meet a slave who believes it is her choice to decide what she will and won’t do in a Gorean gathering then she is no slave, and if her owner backs up her decisions then he is no master.


Explain to me how the fact that a person beliefs it is their choice to decide what they will or won't do at a Gorean gathering disqualifies them from being a slave according to the definition I explained earlier.
How does the fact that a slave has the choice to do something proof that they are not under the influence of an outside force? In this case, the Master (the outside force), may have decided to allow the slave to have the choice of what she would do. In such an event, the slave choosing not to serve you in the way you would expect from a kajira has NO bearing on her being a slave or not. She has been given the choice by the force she is ruled by, and thus makes a choice within the parameters set by the force that rules her = slave.

Again, this may not be the example of a slave that is pleasing to you personally, and you may not approve of the choices her Master made when allowing her the choice to refuse to serve you, but that still does not mean that the girl is not a slave.
Unless you could show me how she went against the external force that supposedly is ruling her (her Master), the slave's actions really have no bearing on how fitting the term slave is to describe her.

If I would teach my dog to ONLY sit when I gave the command, would you then conclude that my dog is not really a dog when it refused to sit on your command?
How does a girl living within the parameters set for her by an outside force proof she is not a slave by living within those parameters?

quote:

So when a slave is ruled by nothing other than her own wishes is she a slave in a Gorean sense no matter what side you lean towards? Who is she then enslaved by?


If a person is only ruled by internal force, they are not a slave; I thought we had covered that adequately.

Show me how the fact that a person refuses to make eggs a certain way proofs that they are ruled only by an internal force instead of an external one.
Show me why a man deciding to allow a slave to choose to make eggs a certain way proofs that he has no control over the slave.
It seems to me that your argument is that anybody who does not respond as a slave to you personally is not a slave; while in reality their behavior towards you has only bearing on their slavery if it goes against their owner’s wishes.


< Message edited by ZeIda -- 1/29/2010 9:20:52 AM >

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/29/2010 11:25:34 AM   
Arturas


Posts: 943
Joined: 2/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Unbuilder

Tal Tim,

I am unclear as to what "welcome to my daily world" means....  Kinda sounds like you spoon feed them what don't have any desire to learn to feed themselves...  If that is the case, then it must bite to be you......

"If memories are all I sing, I'd rather drive a truck"  Ricky Nelson

I wish you well
Unbuilder







Tal,

I think a little information, given is a teaser, may tempt some to more fully enjoy the Sagas. 

"If you tease them, they will come". - Arturas.

(sorry)
Be well

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/29/2010 7:45:02 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		You see it as contradiction Zelda, I don’t. I saw a woman who was not controlled by anyone because her owner didn’t exert any control, the difference was extremely clear when you saw some of the other slaves at the gathering. There was no outside force, no guiding will they were a normal married couple enhancing their sex life with a M/s fantasy without any substance.

At the gathering there were great slaves who didn’t serve me because their owners didn’t believe in free women having any part in the Gorean philosophy, but they were still great slaves. There were slaves I would have loved to own myself and mediocre slaves, and there were slaves who were not enslaved by anything other their own desire to be called a slave. And that pretty much sums up my experience of “slavery” at most gatherings.

That’s probably why this discussion is going around in circles I am trying to describe badly it seems something that was blindingly obvious when you saw it.

Cheryl

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/29/2010 9:35:21 PM   
Nephilim


Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		If he didn't control her was he the owner? or was she really a stray?

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/30/2010 3:12:23 AM   
Naturallurker


Posts: 117
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline 		Just out of curiosity Cheryl, how many slaves in total attended this gathering? Was it a strictly Gorean only event? Did the scrambled eggs girl specifically refuse to make any other type of eggs when specifically asked to do so? Did any of the others make eggs in any other form? Did the particular man, of which the scrambled eggs girl was slave expressly claim to be Gorean if this was not a strictly Gorean only event? How does slaves should all be airheads in a short skirt under the age of 60 play into the philosophy? How does getting your husband to play your slave produce any worthwhile evidence regarding slavery?

I have not encountered  any slaves that impressed me 100% of the time nor do I ever expect to,but then I have yet to meet a single human being that impressed me 100% of the time no matter what label they apply.

Oh and Nephilim, you missed a few threads there fella.



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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/30/2010 8:33:14 AM   
Nephilim


Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		No, just providing another theory.  That she Really wasnt a slave at all, that she was Really just a stray pretending to be a slave.  That or perhaps she was really not human, did you see Her eat any of the eggs? Did her cup empty when she drank?  Or perhaps, she had put arsenic in the eggs.

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RE: Indentification Question From A Curious Outsider - 1/30/2010 10:08:30 AM   
ZeIda


Posts: 47
Joined: 12/1/2009
Status: offline 		I'm not saying that the fact that you would judge a woman only ruled by internal force is a contradiction, I'm saying that you equate a woman not frying eggs the way you like to her not being a slave is a contradiction.
If you agree that the only way to determine if somebody is a slave or not is by determining if they are ruled by an outside force or not, then you agree that the ONLY way a person’s actions can proof that the person is not a slave is if those actions completely go against the will of the outside force the slave is supposed to be ruled by.
In other words: the only way a slave frying or not frying eggs the way you want can demonstrate if her ascribing to the term slave is correct or not is if she does the opposite of what her Master wants. If her Master doesn't care, and leaves her the choice, then neither action shows ANYTHING in regards to how correct the label slave is for her.

When you state things like 'a slave who thinks they can decide what to do at a Gorean gathering is not a slave' then you are making it sound like being a slave is something a person can choose to do, and something a person can fail at being when not living up to that choice they made to be a slave.
That is a totally incorrect point of view.
You cannot possible fail at being a slave, because slavery is not determined by how well you can act as a slave would in a certain situation. Instead, slavery is only determined to how reactive you are to an outside force trying to rule your life.
If a person is totally subjected to another person, but is still allowed to exercise free choice in certain areas because the ruling force decides to permit that, then you are talking about a slave. The slave exercising the free choice given to them to make eggs the way they want is in no way failing at being a slave.
One cannot fail at being a slave; at the most, one can fail at correctly describing oneself as a slave or free based on if one is only ruled by an internal or an external force. But then it's still only a failure to use a correct definition, not a failure at slavery itself, because if you aren't a slave to begin with, how could you possible fail at being one?

Now, I do know the type of girl you are talking about, who so badly wants to be a slave that they claim they are one, even though they are clearly only ruled by an internal force.
But if that's what you were trying to describe, you failed miserable by making it all about the girl's actions, instead about her reaction to her Master/outside force.
If you would have gave an example that demonstrated how he didn't rule her, because she clearly went against his wishes on a continuous and consistent basis, I might have agreed with your statement that she isn't a slave.
But all your example of the refusal to make eggs does is paint and incorrect picture of slavery, and make it seem that a slave somehow has the moral obligation to act as you think a slave should, based on not other premises than the fact that they described themselves as a slave.

I have news for you, a girl could very well act totally unlike a Gorean kajira, refusing to address free by title, not obeying anybody but her own Master, be opinionated, loud, rude, lazy, old, ugly, selfish and STILL be a slave, as long as they are subjected to a force outside themselves.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

You see it as contradiction Zelda, I don’t. I saw a woman who was not controlled by anyone because her owner didn’t exert any control, the difference was extremely clear when you saw some of the other slaves at the gathering. There was no outside force, no guiding will they were a normal married couple enhancing their sex life with a M/s fantasy without any substance.

At the gathering there were great slaves who didn’t serve me because their owners didn’t believe in free women having any part in the Gorean philosophy, but they were still great slaves. There were slaves I would have loved to own myself and mediocre slaves, and there were slaves who were not enslaved by anything other their own desire to be called a slave. And that pretty much sums up my experience of “slavery” at most gatherings.

That’s probably why this discussion is going around in circles I am trying to describe badly it seems something that was blindingly obvious when you saw it.

Cheryl



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