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jakeskajira -> Actions (1/17/2010 6:02:53 PM)

If you observe the actions of a free man, does who he choose for a slave, a free companion or other choices influence your feelings about him? Does the behavior of his slave influence how you think of him? Does the behavior of a Master change how you'd think about a girl he owns or his free companion if he had one? And, what are some behaviors or actions that would cause you to think less of a man, either because of actions of his own, or actions of his slave?



Jeffff -> RE: Actions (1/17/2010 6:15:18 PM)

This is an excellent question. I have many thoughts on this. I will be interested to see the difference, if there is one, between a Gorean response and my ideas.


Jeff



nephandi -> RE: Actions (1/17/2010 6:33:07 PM)

Greetings

If I observe a rude slave who generally behaves like a fool, then yes I will take that as either weakness on the part of her owner or as her owner having standards which I do not agree with, in either way I will looks at the slave's owner more negatively for it.

I would not look at a man negatively if his free companion acted in a way I did not agree with, non unless he supported her actions and therefore accepted them or agreed with them. I am however aware that many might look at a man negatively if his free companion behaves in an unseemly manner and I try to behave accordingly.

I would not look poorly on a girl if her Master acted like a fool, she do not control him or have any say in his behavior so she can not be blamed for it either. I do however have higher expectations of those I considers men of quality, as I assume such men have selected girls of quality to, so while bad behavior on the part of the free man do not make me look negatively on the girl a man I respect might make me look more positively on a girl, or at least expect more from her.

I wish you well



jakeskajira -> RE: Actions (1/17/2010 6:39:13 PM)

nephandi, you are saying you wouldn't think poorly of a slave who picked a poor Master? (since on earth, i think most of us at least get the choice of who we kneel too usually for our collars, even if its the last choice we'd get to make.)

I am just curious why it is a one way street in your mind...



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Actions (1/17/2010 7:12:47 PM)

Hiya emma,

Send my regards to your owner.

I am glad to see you posting some thought provoking questions here. As many as I see you post on FetLife, I wonder if you ever run out of questions ;).

I believe that we are judged by many things, including the company we keep. I believe that it can also be a tool to be introspective of ourselves. I have made poor choices of friends, companions, and slaves in the past. I have examined each of those times to determine why, and have found something within myself I could improve upon.

Taking the lessons I have learned looking inward, I apply outward as well. Initial behavior of a slave may not cause me to think poorly of the owner, but how that situation is handled does. As far as what I think of a slave, if they are owned by someone that I think poorly of the owner's behavior, I do not think much about that.

What makes me think less of anyone, is not owning that which you should.

take care,
Orion



Aswad -> RE: Actions (1/17/2010 9:32:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jakeskajira

I am just curious why it is a one way street in your mind...


Since she's already off to bed, I'll throw in 2ยข here...

The owner may change, as people do. Or even make a mistake, which happens. You make a best effort to pick the one for you, which is like picking a tour guide for a safari. The lions may have other things in mind than your tour guide does, and your own ideas are pretty much irrelevant beyond the point where you hand it all over to the guide.

It's a paradigm question. Do we fault a follower for following well? Or do we fault the leader for leading poorly? Or both? Should we dismiss Stalin's guilt because soldiers carried out the actual orders for him? Should we execute most Germans living in Berlin in 1945 for carrying out the orders they received? Blame both? Neither? One of them? Which one?

The paradox disappears if we accept that the standard must fit what is measured. The slave by the standard of what a good slave is. The free follower by the standard of a good free person. The free leader by the standard of a good leader. When a slave carries out the orders of the free, it is not culpable considered as a slave. But if you start considering it a person, then it becomes culpable as any other person.

If a kajira is livestock, less than human, not a person... that's one standard.

If a kajira is something else, like a communal submissive... well, that's another standard.

So, what is a kajira, in your world, and just what does that say about what reflects how on who?

Health,
al-Aswad.



Kirata -> RE: Actions (1/17/2010 9:44:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

If a kajira is livestock, less than human, not a person... that's one standard.

One standard where? Kajirae are not "less than human" either in or out of the books.

K.




Malkinius -> RE: Actions (1/17/2010 11:42:50 PM)

Greetings.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: jakeskajira

If you observe the actions of a free man, does who he choose for a slave, a free companion or other choices influence your feelings about him? Does the behavior of his slave influence how you think of him? Does the behavior of a Master change how you'd think about a girl he owns or his free companion if he had one? And, what are some behaviors or actions that would cause you to think less of a man, either because of actions of his own, or actions of his slave?


Everything about someone influences how I feel about them and what I think of them. With someone I interact with a lot or with someone whom I read a lot, such as here on CM, it is an ever changing view of them as each new thing comes up.

Be well....

Malkinius



nephandi -> RE: Actions (1/18/2010 3:34:47 AM)

Greetings

I see it this way. Few slaves go out of their way to choose a poor quality Master, and while they might be faulted for their choice, the slave is not pulling the reins, the free are. A slave, unless the relationship in questions assumes she can leave at any time she like, have no control over id her Master acts like an idiot. I do not think poorly of the bullet it the gun is of poor quality plain and simple.

I wish you well



kisshou -> RE: Actions (1/18/2010 5:53:59 AM)

greetings,

Who he chooses does not influence my feelings for him.

How he reacts to the slaves behavior influences how I think about him.

I envy a slave who has a Master I hold in high esteem.

I think your last question depends whether you are using a Gorean morality to judge behavior or a Judeo-Christian one. Quite a while back Master Leonidas made a thread about a robber who went down guns blazing but lived true to himself. Many people seem to have been able to blend the two moralities whereas I struggle with this. Part of me would respect him for being true to himself but part of me would feel he went against "Thou shall not steal" and that is wrong.

well wishes
kisshou



jakeskajira -> RE: Actions (1/18/2010 3:57:37 PM)

Since I am not using religion as part of my question, I will just state now that religious beliefs, or religious moralities had nothing to do with the questions I asked. Actually what spawned my questions was reading through the thread that hit over 30 pages going back and forth about how a slave acted, (more than one actually) and what people were saying on there.

I didn't want to hijack that thread by asking the question on there, so I started a new thread. I would think your issue with combining the two deserves its own thread. (as I am both religious, and that doesn't interfere with being true to myself, or my nature. Gorean to me doesn't conflict with my religious beliefs at all.)

But, thats slightly a different topic, and here I am, hijacking my own thread. LOL





jakeskajira -> RE: Actions (1/18/2010 4:03:05 PM)

****Master Orion -- Nope. I always have questions luckily, my Owner thinks its funny to let me ask them, he likes that "why" is my favorite question, even if its the opposite of what most believe a slave should do/be like.
I will send your regards to my Owner when he gets home from work today. :)


do you think the behavior of a free woman would change how you feel about a man? or does the "how he handles the situation" rule apply to her as well?







OrionTheWolf -> RE: Actions (1/18/2010 4:50:34 PM)

Hiya emma,

To me how anyone handles a situation tells much about them. Every time I handle a situation, I look at how I handled it and evaluate myself, it is the only way to improve ourselves.

If someone's Free Companion acted a certain way it would reflect on the other companion, just as how our friends handle themselves, reflects on everyone that associates with them and is aware of the behavior. I have lost many friends because I will not silently condone some behavior, and I will not blindly support someone.

Now a question back to you: Would you say that how a slave phrases comments or questions, means quite a bit? It is often said that what upsets the Free is not always what a slave says or asks, but how they do so?

BTW, I am asking these questions for the purposes of this topic, as I have already read or amira has read and relayed to me, much of your opinions on these matters. My slave is a big lurker and would rather remain silent than even have a chance of being involved in any internet drama, that is when she actually has the time to read any of the topics.

take care,
Orion



jakeskajira -> RE: Actions (1/18/2010 5:08:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Hiya emma,

To me how anyone handles a situation tells much about them. Every time I handle a situation, I look at how I handled it and evaluate myself, it is the only way to improve ourselves.

If someone's Free Companion acted a certain way it would reflect on the other companion, just as how our friends handle themselves, reflects on everyone that associates with them and is aware of the behavior. I have lost many friends because I will not silently condone some behavior, and I will not blindly support someone.

Now a question back to you: Would you say that how a slave phrases comments or questions, means quite a bit? It is often said that what upsets the Free is not always what a slave says or asks, but how they do so?

BTW, I am asking these questions for the purposes of this topic, as I have already read or amira has read and relayed to me, much of your opinions on these matters. My slave is a big lurker and would rather remain silent than even have a chance of being involved in any internet drama, that is when she actually has the time to read any of the topics.

take care,
Orion


Master Orion,

one of the lesson's my Master pushed onto me was it wasn't "what" I said, but "how" i said it.

you can get away with a lot if you phrase things in a socially acceptable manner.  Blunt honesty is usually also accepted a lot better than being sneaky and underhanded.

(an example would be telling someone you think they are behaving like an asshole is usually better accepted then trying to manipulate them into the behavior you think they should have.)

I am usually pretty blunt, though I have learned to soften some of my blows by finding ways of saying what I need to say with out insults or disrespect.

It wasn't an easy thing for me to learn, but I think it was valuable.

I personally love to hear what people have to say, but the disrespect shown by some towards both slave and free alike often makes me just shake my head because there's not a good way to say "I don't like the way your acting, I think its horrible" in a polite way.

I do believe there is also a time and place for things. I think that some things are just better ignored unless directly asked.... and that also goes back to the whole, not what you say, but how you phrase it thing.

There are some things that you can't address with out making yourself look bad in the situation too and its sometimes better to avoid it and just let the person look like an idiot with out adding to the situation.

But, thats just my thoughts on that particular subject.

opinionated wench that I am. ;)



Aswad -> RE: Actions (1/18/2010 8:19:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

One standard where? Kajirae are not "less than human" either in or out of the books.


Poor wording on my part.

I was trying to point out that the measure of quality depends on the quality sought. If I remember the USMC code correctly, it would imply that quality requires one to refuse orders that involve immoral or unlawful actions. By another standard, soldiers should carry out orders anyway. Different armies seek different qualities in their soldiers. What is a good soldier in one army may be a poor soldier in another army, because of a difference in paradigms and- thus- different standards.

One action reflects in one way. If a man tells a kajira to run off a cliff, whether or not she does so will reflect either "obedient to destructive orders" or "attentive to destructive consequences." What value is assigned to either reflection, depends on what is sought by the owner. Personally, I could appreciate either, but it would be tomatoes vs potatoes. You do not use them for the same things, and you don't value them for the same things, because they aren't the same things, even though both are vegetables.

The point was not to assert that this girl is one thing or the other.

It was to say that if you're looking to be a good potato, it doesn't matter what makes a good tomato, and vice versa.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Nephilim -> RE: Actions (1/18/2010 9:25:22 PM)

No one thing alone is the measure of a man.  All things give clues to the metal a person is made of and influence our opinions of them.  Who a man chooses as slave or FC could say many things about them.  From the physical aspects of the slave to their personality.  A man who owns a "conventionally" physically attractive slave could be interested only in the superficial and aesthetic, or could have some superior skill or trait that allows them to retain what many would consider a more desirable slave.  Especially when the relationship is perceived as people of very different attractiveness, I think the instinct is to ask, "what is it that keeps them together?"  The danger is to rely too heavily on those quick judgments and have a very wrong view of a person.  I was talking to a slave (TPE) a year or so ago about a BDSM master she had met at a convention.  She talked about him with reverence.  I asked, not that it is a bad thing, it certainly isn't, but in the short time that they interacted, why did she have such reverence.  She answered with, well, he gives national demos and has slaves who look like high-end fetish models.  I, of course, pointed out that he could simply have a stage show.  Although I think that may illustrate the difference between a Gorean and normal BDSM/TPE slave, it is still a valuation that we see used by many, even those that call themselves Gorean; a summary judgment based on others opinions and the superficial qualities of their slaves.

Of course, if you are judging a person's ability to "master" another person, then their slaves actions are very important.  But is mastery of another person a measure of "Goreanness"?  I don't think so.  I don't think the books anywhere indicated that in a free society that a Gorean man would be able to have all women who are "natural slaves" choose to admit that and become obedient servants.  Also, is the ability to master another synonymous with their worth or value as a person? I don't think that is true either.  Being able to make free into slave in a society without slavery (other than slightly modified socially acceptable relationships/BDSMy couple), to me, seems a measure of charisma.

Anyway, in the end, it does come down to the adage "it isn't what goes into a man that defiles him, it is what comes out".(Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.)  I think we can, do and should use those summary judgments in some cases, but we should try to look for more for final analysis.




Kirata -> RE: Actions (1/18/2010 11:12:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

If a man tells a kajira to run off a cliff, whether or not she does so will reflect either "obedient to destructive orders" or "attentive to destructive consequences."

I don't know much about the wider scene around here, so maybe that comparison has some validity somehow. But we're talking about Gor here. I can't imagine a Gorean commanding a slave girl to kill herself, or one obeying. Those psychological profiles just don't fit Gor.

I do, however, accept your point that standards differ.

K.




singedsilks -> RE: Actions (1/24/2010 2:48:49 PM)

You know,, that always drives me nuts. 'If i told you to run off a cliff... etc..' the answer being that if the girl didn't then she is a poor slave. Gee what a choice..bad slave or dead slave.I would say no, and take the punishment. But then, maybe that is why i have found i make a better FW than kajira... 



AnimusRex -> RE: Actions (1/24/2010 3:29:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: singedsilks

You know,, that always drives me nuts. 'If i told you to run off a cliff... etc..' the answer being that if the girl didn't then she is a poor slave.


I agree. People who thrive on such psychodrama, both men and women, reveal a fetish with power itself, instead of a desire to put that power to some useful purpose.



singedsilks -> RE: Actions (1/24/2010 3:43:15 PM)

hmmm.. i had not looked at it that way before... that is a very important difference.. 



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