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RE: What makes you a gorean?


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RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 3:00:29 PM   
bondmaid123


Posts: 131
Joined: 6/6/2009
Status: offline 		But Jarl, there is a lot more to the philosophies that shape Gorean thoughts than the Home Stone discussion.  Hell, Port Kar didn't have a Home Stone until some crazy transplanted Earth Guy with a hero complex  created it for them and they were to be *sure* "Gorean" up until that point.  Jerkwad Goreans, perhaps, but Gorean anyway. Were they *more* Gorean after they acknowledged Tarl Cabot's gesture?  Or were they just more *cohesive* as a *city*?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 3:00:41 PM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
So D221,

You have now gotten some answers in more than one direction that you're now sitting with. I have two questiong that I would like you to answer me on as a returned favor.

1) What did these answers really prove to you in the end?

2) Did you really understand, nay, grasp, what has been told to you and if so did you come off as being any clearer?


Take your time.


I wish you well,

  Camerius


_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to D221)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 3:03:31 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bondmaid123

But Jarl, there is a lot more to the philosophies that shape Gorean thoughts than the Home Stone discussion. 

Obviously.

quote:

Hell, Port Kar didn't have a Home Stone until some crazy transplanted Earth Guy with a hero complex  created it for them and they were to be *sure* "Gorean" up until that point.  Jerkwad Goreans, perhaps, but Gorean anyway. Were they *more* Gorean after they acknowledged Tarl Cabot's gesture?  Or were they just more *cohesive* as a *city*?


I've addressed this very point in the Home Stone threads. Take a look.

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Gorean FAQ Threads

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 3:17:51 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline 		-FR-

Seeing the replies to this thread makes me realise that what the OP wants (to live the philosophies without having a Home Stone) doesn't seem like it's possible. It's interesting that he put them on the same level as something like slave positions, which do serve their purpose but aren't integral to the philosophy.

OP you might want to ask yourself what it is that draws you to Gorean philosophy, and whether what you like about it is essentially and fundamentally Gorean (something like a Home Stone) or if it's just incorporated into it...in other words, if you're attracted to female slavery or male strength, or master morality - things that are found in the Gorean philosophies but are found outside of it as well.

I wish you well,
Bella

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 3:20:05 PM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
They didn't have a unification point to HAVE a City in a Gorean context, slut, until Tarl took up that piece of rock and carved the letters of Port Kar into it to give them that exact understanding. Until that point, Port Kar weren't even a Gorean City. They also didn't become "more* Gorean than what they had been before this. What they did however was to become unified and collected as a community in more than one way that they had not been before. They now had a focal point, a Home Stone. They now had a City. A Gorean community and City.

I also don't agree with you of Tarl having a hero complex, that part is stripped off  him in the delta when he was taken slave and had to choose between death or enslavement before he entered Port Kar. It is this that changes him and this change and acceptance that goes on through Hunters and finally is put in it's right place within him in Marauders. From this, I don't see Tarl having any hero complex, rather I see and understands him as a man that has come to terms, chewed his way through some tough personal shit, and have exited as a changed man with a better grip and understanding of himself, what he is and his way of life.

I guess it all depends on how you read the books and understands them as well.

I wish you well,

  Camerius




_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to bondmaid123)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 4:27:33 PM   
bondmaid123


Posts: 131
Joined: 6/6/2009
Status: offline 		I disagree that Port Kar wasn't a city prior to having a Home Stone.  They just didn't have that sense of patriotism/ownership that allows people to stand up to overwhelming odds and fight for something.


(in reply to Camerius)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 6:06:17 PM   
D221


Posts: 6
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline 		To Camerius,

To answer your questions to:
1) What did these answers really prove to you in the end?

2) Did you really understand, nay, grasp, what has been told to you and if so did you come off as being any clearer?

What I grasped is that there are a lot of zealots within the gorean community which proves to me that religion isn't the only opiate of the masses.  Although I have nothing but deep respect for people that are willing to live and die for their word and their own beliefs, I couldn't care less about the people who foolishly put their lives for the belief of some doctrine.  Like the ji had, which is funny since most people in the middle east think its the crusades all over again.  That's what most of you seem to be worried about whether to call the war a ji had or the crusades yet nobody even bothers to realize what the war is really about so in the end it's just another pointless battle.

And I also have another question for you in regards to your answer from my last question.

So I want to ask this to ElizabethAnne, Camerius and Musicmystery, if they would sacrifice their own lives to protect a Home Stone if I put a gun to your heads and threaten take it from you and I don't mean this in the context of the story as if you were actually living on Gor, I mean in your real life where you're living now (I know some people actually do have homestones).


Answering for myself alone, yes, I would protect my own Home Stone with my very life, as well as the Home Stone of my community.


Would  it be in my right as a free man to take your daughter as a pleasure slave (in real life of course), keep in mind that I'm not asking if you would protect your daughter because I'm sure that you will.

< Message edited by D221 -- 1/27/2010 6:29:56 PM >

(in reply to Camerius)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 6:11:22 PM   
Brule


Posts: 61
Joined: 11/1/2006
Status: offline 		  I don't post often but every now and then a thread does catch My eye like this one has done. I read through the thread and a couple things that I wanted to address.
First of all the comment about watching her countries flag being pissed on and just rolling her eyes, to Me this just shows a lack of pride of what that flag stands for. I am very sure that there are many soldiers both active and inactive that would have alot to say or do if they saw that. I am very proud that I served in this countries armed service and even prouder that My oldest son will be leaving for basic training sometime this summer. For anyone to stand by and let something like that happen shows their lack of pride for what that flag stands for and the thousands of soldiers that gave their time and lives to make that flag what it stands for today.
Yes My Home Stone may not be as important to others as it is to Me but it stands for what I believe and stand for. It is to Me what the Flag stands for  to many others, so to answer one of the questions the OP asked I would do anything I am able to do to protect, cherish and defend My Home Stone the same as I would the US Flag. We all have things We believe in and cherish, without them what are We really?
The OP said that He wanted to live the lifestyle because of its beliefs in honor and being accountable for ones words and actions,,, to Me, and it sounds like many others, the Home Stone is a individual representation of Honor, Values, and Codes of conduct. If He chooses not to have one its His choice.
I guess it is hard for Me to understand why someone wants to pick and choose what part of a whole they want to live by and then make jest of the parts that they don't want and others that choose the whole package.
My Home Stone hangs on My wall where all can see it, and all I have to say it let someone try and dishonor it or "piss on it" and see what happens. The true Goreans I know can disagree with something that others do and can discuss it without condeming others for their views, maybe that is why I choose to be more with real Goreans instead of many that choose to play it online.

Brule



(in reply to bondmaid123)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 6:26:18 PM   
Brule


Posts: 61
Joined: 11/1/2006
Status: offline 		and to singedsilks,,,is not about a capitalization issue,,,,its pride,,without that what do We have.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 6:39:28 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: D221

So I want to ask this to ElizabethAnne, Camerius and Musicmystery, if they would sacrifice their own lives to protect a Home Stone if I put a gun to your heads and threaten take it from you and I don't mean this in the context of the story as if you were actually living on Gor, I mean in your real life where you're living now (I know some people actually do have homestones).

You are a lazy fucker, aren't you. Asked on answered on page two of this thread. Let's play it again...........

quote:

ORIGINAL: D221

First I'd like to thank AnimusRex, Aramis, Elisabella and especially Nephilim for you answers. Now what I asked was rather a simple question about what it means to be a gorean wanting to know more about it's philosophy but rather than getting a straight answer a lot of you were more concern with capitalizations. What interested me about the gorean ways is that in the story Gor was a place were people lived and died by their word and honor unlike our modern society were a persons' word don't mean a god damn thing. So I want to ask this to ElizabethAnne, Camerius and Musicmystery, if they would sacrifice their own lives to protect a Home Stone if I put a gun to your heads and threaten take it from you and I don't mean this in the context of the story as if you were actually living on Gor, I mean in your real life where you're living now (I know some people actually do have homestones).

Is it that you don't understand, or don't want to understand? You're still talking about a rock. We're talking about the concept of Home Stone and its central importance to understanding Gor. Perhaps you just don't like the answers, as they're different from what you were expecting.

quote:

Home Stone threads


Read. This has been explained and discussed several times. You want your question answered, here it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Camerius

Answering for myself alone, yes, I would protect my own Home Stone with my very life, as well as the Home Stone of my community.

I wish you well,

Camerius

And if you understood Home Stone as Camerius does, you would do the same.

As for the rest...I think Bull has this already well-covered:

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Now after reading your second post and noting you discounted and in fact spit on anything that was said by those that found you lacking I'd have to continue by adding the following:

Kiss my ass!!! Gorean enough for you?

And no I wouldn't die for some homestone. But I'd damn sure consider killing for the people and principles that my Home Stone represents!!!

Direct any further questions to my feet, smartass.


You're like someone saying, "I'm really interested in Taoist philosophy, but come on, yin and yang?"

And then you're surprised when we shake our heads and tell you you're just not getting it, and don't seem to want to.

So if you're going to ask the same question a third time or more, just keep re-reading this response. Thanks.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/27/2010 7:02:32 PM >

_____________________________

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Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to D221)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 7:10:03 PM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 368
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline 		Tim...

but can one only be a yinnist?

John, AKA Dinnardin

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 7:19:20 PM   
D221


Posts: 6
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline 		I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about and when did I ever ask about a rock or a meaning of a stone.
But since you brought up Taoism (I don't know why) I'll be nice and give you a little lesson. 

“To lead people, walk beside them... As for the best leaders, the people do not notice their existence. The next best, the people honor and praise. The next, the people fear; and the next, the people hate... When the best leader's work is done the people say, 'We did it ourselves.'”

“When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.”  Lao Tzu

Empty cans are always the loudest.


< Message edited by D221 -- 1/27/2010 7:39:07 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 7:29:34 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2104
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: D221
Empty cans are always the loudest.


Indeed.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 7:51:04 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: D221

I don't have a clue as to what your talking about

No kidding.

quote:

and when did I ever ask about a rock or a meaning of a stone.

Well, let's see.
quote:

ORIGINAL: D221

I just started reading the gor books and noticed that I had lot of the same philosophies as the book. I would like to learn more and take part in the lifestyle but I don't really care about it's protocols or customs like homestones or slave positions, I'm just interested in philosophy and making that a part of my life.

So right from the start, you stated a contradictory position. While you've shared that example and illustration is beyond you,
quote:

since you brought up Taoism (I don't know why)
more familiar things are commonly used to illustrate unfamiliar concepts. Since you were unable or unwilling to understand why your contradictory stance was so, Taoism, a more familiar philosophy, was brought in to shed light on the problem. Alas, you weren't interested in understanding, but in retorting, sharing your favorite Tao Te Ching passages, ironically, since
quote:

the people say "We did it ourselves!"
seems such anathema to you, demanding instead easy answers, and pouting when the answers aren't so simple.


What you want is impossible. Without Tao, there is no yin and yang. Without yin and yang, the ten thousand things do not exist. And without Home Stone, there is no Gorean philosophy. It would be nothing but your empty can, as Animus just noted. Gor means Home Stone, literally. It's fundamental. The rest means nothing without it. Taoism without the Tao. Gorean without the Gor. Window dressing, not a philosophy. At least not a Gorean one.


Not only your understanding, which can be easily forgiven at first, but your own posts are inherently contradictory:
quote:

What interested me about the gorean ways is that in the story Gor was a place were people lived and died by their word and honor unlike our modern society were a persons' word don't mean a god damn thing.
quote:

So I want to ask this to ElizabethAnne, Camerius and Musicmystery, if they would sacrifice their own lives to protect a Home Stone
quote:

and when did I ever ask about a rock or a meaning of a stone.

That's not so easily forgiven. Integrity counts for something here.


quote:

When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.” Lao Tzu

You really should look at that one carefully and consider. You're a long way from Gorean.





< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/27/2010 8:12:19 PM >

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to D221)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 8:42:39 PM   
D221


Posts: 6
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline 		Like I said, when did I ever ask about a stone.  In any case, I would like to thank you, musicmystery for proving my point and since you mention Tao again, I still don't know why, I'll be nice and give you another lesson.

"The Tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.
The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.
Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations."  Lao Tzu

Knowledge is nothing without understanding.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 8:51:32 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Even after it's explicitly explained. Even with quoted examples. Whatever. If you're determined to be an asshole, so be it.

What is this now, a Tao-off?

"Governing a country is like cooking a small fish." Don't discount the details.

Like the full teacup that can take no more tea until you empty your cup, this is clearly a waste of time.

No knowledge and no understanding. Enjoy.





< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/27/2010 9:49:36 PM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 9:14:41 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

First of all the comment about watching her countries flag being pissed on and just rolling her eyes, to Me this just shows a lack of pride of what that flag stands for


Hi Brule,

I don't think that's a fair assumption, I personally believe that a symbol is nothing more than a symbol unless specifically imbued with power, such as a communion wafer after a blessing. A flag is a flag, it is not the country.

I would be more concerned with someone who desecrated the values of the US than a person who desecrated the flag. Like, if Joe urinates on the flag, and Jack tries to pass a law outlawing Islam...to me, Joe urinated on a piece of cloth. Jack pissed all over the values the US was founded on.

Joe's a childish attention whore. Jack's close to being a traitor. Joe needs to find a better outlet for his emotions. Jack needs to find a country that better suits his facist fucking beliefs.

I realize that not everyone agrees with me on the value of symbols, but I guess I'd say that if there were any important symbol of the US, it would be the original Constitution. Flags are on magnets and little paper toothpicks that you stick in cupcakes on the 4th then toss in the trash, they are everywhere. The Constitution, to me, is a unique artifact that embodies what it means to be American.

I'd be much more upset at someone figuratively pissing on the Constitution than somebody literally pissing on the flag.

I wish you well,
Bella

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 1/27/2010 9:19:32 PM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 11:11:27 PM   
Nephilim


Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		"Even after it's explicitly explained. Even with quoted examples. Whatever. If you're determined to be an asshole, so be it."

Seems there is evidence of a "Gorean" about.

I would still like to see where the books support the idea that people from other cities respect each other's homestones. I seem to remember that it is considered a great thing to steal someone else's homestone. Even better to kidnap a woman from the neighboring city while you are at it. Since the people of any other city are usually only good as slaves and are to be impaled on the walls of the city on sight. There is evidence of some trade, which indicates only tolerance of each other enough for those meetings and tolerance at the times of fairs. In the books every meeting of strange people I can think of was very tense and often led to lots of people being killed. Some people have seemed to have said that you can't be Gorean without a homestone, I'll bet the many without a literal one would disagree.

lol, this reminds me of the number of times people on this forum say you can be Gorean and never own a slave. I suppose that for some here it is probably easier to find a nice stone to carve so it makes sense to stand firm on that point.

To the OP, you can certainly identify with the philosophies and not partake of those trivialities but as some have said, the concepts are vitally important. In the end, you certainly don't want to base you entire life on bad literature but identification as Gorean can narrow the field if you are looking for others with similar thoughts although, you might find that it narrows the field more than you would like.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 11:30:54 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1564
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		{fast reply}

Tal and greetings all.....

I have been staying out of most threads lately. My choice was to not feed the monkeys any further. Now we have some honorable and passionate people hitting on one of the core points of understanding Goreans. You will notice that I said core point(S), not point. There is more to understanding Goreans and being Gorean than the concept of the Home Stone. Some of those points have absolutely nothing to do with Home Stones and every thing they mean. Anyone can understand some things about being Gorean without understanding the Home Stone concept. I do agree that it is an integral part of being Gorean to understand it. You do NOT need to have a personal Home Stone to be Gorean. In the books, most Goreans did not have a personal one. Their's was the Home Stone of their city. The people most likely to have their own were the Caste of Peasants. If you don't believe me, go read the books. It is there.

On the question of Port Kar. It was a city and a Gorean one at that before it had a Home Stone. What it was not was a unified city. It had some variable number of competing Ubars over its existence. It also had, at the time of the books, the Captain's Council which actually ran the city as much or more than any Ubar. It was to the Captains that Tarl presented the Home Stone he created. He did it in the time honored Gorean way of finding a stone, marking it and declaring it a Home Stone and then having it recognized by others. The first to do so was the slave boy Fish.

In all cases, the Home Stone represents place. It was first the place where the central fire was laid, the hearth stone. Tor-Tu-Gor, the sun, the Light Upon the Home Stone best exemplifies this concept. This is central to understanding place. So is the Gorean word for Home Stone: Gor. Yes, that means in English that Goreans are Home Stonians. It is the concept of our place that defines us with that place being expanding circles of where and what we are which includes those with whom we share a sense of place.

There is one other thing that many here need to learn that will help you understand why a few have erupted as they have. The use of Home Stone is a filter. It is one of the things we use to filter who is of our place and those who are strangers to it who may claim to be of our place. Those of us who have been here for years and doing out best to understand what is and is not Gorean and then to pass on our understanding have seen so many bastardizations of the term that because of its importance to use have to say something when it is misused. Yes, we know that most of the clueless, the fakes, the gamers and the wannabe's will use it however it suits them and will never try to really understand it as Goreans do. As much as it offends us to see it happening, in the long run it is good because it shows us who does and does not really understand.

Just because someone uses the term correctly does not make them Gorean. Using it incorrectly usually does indicate that those who do are not Gorean. It says that they are not of our place and not one of us. They are a stranger at our gates.

Be well.....

Malkinius

_____________________________

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http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/27/2010 11:32:52 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 6362
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nephilim

I would still like to see where the books support the idea that people from other cities respect each other's homestones. I seem to remember that it is considered a great thing to steal someone else's homestone.

I would like to see where the books support the idea that "homestone" is one word, lowercase.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nephilim

lol, this reminds me of the number of times people on this forum say you can be Gorean and never own a slave. I suppose that for some here it is probably easier to find a nice stone to carve so it makes sense to stand firm on that point.

I would like to see where the books support the idea that you cannot be Gorean unless you own a slave.

K.

(in reply to Nephilim)
Profile   Post #: 60
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