RE: What makes you a gorean?

Create a
Free Account

As the Collar Turns:

Collarchat.com - BDSM Forum

Home Login Search

RE: What makes you a gorean?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: What makes you a gorean?

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 4 [5]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/29/2010 12:08:55 AM

Malkinius

Posts: 1564
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Camerius
I still don't see Port Kar as a Gorean city, from it not having a common purpose or value which other cities have by their Home Stone. Please note here that I'm solely talking about the view that the other regional cities have about that place. This leads me to conclude that Port Kar isn't seen AS a city in a Gorean context while it has a governing body (Council of Captains), inhabitants, various businesses and so on, it doesn't have the "soul" of the city, the Home Stone. The inhabitants doesn't see their city as one worth much in the way they behave versus how other Goreans view they own cities. Goreans sees a city or community as a living and breathing entity, it has a value and a purpose, it has a soul and a common bond and one that should be respected or revered. Port Kar didn't have any of this before the following happens;

"And what of Port Kar?" I asked.
"She has no Home Stone," said one of the men.
I smiled. It was true. Port Kar, of all the cities on Gor, was the only one that had no Home Stone. I did not know if men did not love her because she had no Home Stone, or that she had no Home Stone because men did not love her.
The officer had proposed, as clearly as one might, that the city be abandoned to the flames, and to the ravaging seamen of Cos and Tyros.
Port Kar had no Home Stone.

Raiders of Gor (Ballantine edition, 3'rd printing 1973) Chapter 16, p.250-251

After this is done, forst then Port Kar becomes a Gorean city. But before that? Nopes, while it was a Gorean city from it being on Gor and inhabited by Goreans, it itself didn't become a *Gorean* city until the above was done. Then it got a value, then it got a purpose.

But, I fully agree that owning a Home Stone don't make you Gorean, as we have people as well as cities that don't have or follows this practice. I however don't agree with your take on Port Kar being a Gorean city before it got a Home Stone. It might have looked like one, but it wasn't one.

I wish you well,

Camerius

I left in just a small part of your quote from the book. The important part. In this case, I am going to have to side with the author. Port Kar was a Gorean city. It is right there in your quote. If you want to say that it was a city without a heart or soul, going back to the quote, I would agree with you. I used the term unified because it was split into many groups. Did it have no Home Stone because it was so split or was it split because it had no Home Stone? That is another discussion. We do know from the book that when the Home Stone was created and people acknowledged it, it became united. It gained a soul if you prefer. Even soulless, it was still Gorean and still a city. On that point your very quote proves you wrong.

One other thing just occurred to me. Did the towns and cities in the Schendi jungles have Home Stones? The culture there was Bantu and specifically Zulu. Hearthstones are not a part of that culture? If those towns did not have them, do you also consider them to not be Gorean? I do not recall anything in Explorers saying anything one way or the other on the subject and I have not yet go back to look.

Be well....

Malkinius

_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to Camerius)

Profile

Post #: 81

RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/29/2010 2:12:54 AM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline

I think this is the important part of the quote:

quote:

"How many of you think," I asked, "that Port Kar has no Home Stone?"
The men looked at one another, puzzled. All knew, of course, that she had no Home Stone.
There was silence.
Then, after a time, Tab said, "I think that she might have one."

He didn't say "I think she should have one" but rather "I think she might have one," meaning he thought it was possible that the city had the unity that would allow them to pledge themselves to a Home Stone of the city.

It's one of those chicken and egg things in a way, the city can't have a Home Stone if it doesn't have the sentiment behind it, but at the same time having the Home Stone as a rallying point is what really brings that sentiment to the forefront.

I wish you all well,
Bella

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 1/29/2010 2:14:31 AM >

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to Malkinius)

Profile

Post #: 82

RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/29/2010 6:07:29 AM

Camerius

Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline

Tal Malkinius,

First off, you missed something I wrote almost in the start of my post to you, namely this;

quote:

Please note here that I'm solely talking about the view that the other regional cities have about that place.

In that they didn't see Port Kar as a city, yes, it had all the trappings of a city, as I have already explained, tho it is (to them) missing one vital part, a Home Stone, which for them embodies that as a Gorean city. I also (again) points out that while it is a city placed on Gor (making it Gorean), and is inhabited by Goreans, it is also a Gorean city. HOWEVER Port Kar is not see nor understood *AS* a city, because it is missing one vital part ....a Home Stone. THAT is my point, and one that I agree with, from the background of how Northern Goreans understand and sees their own cities. We're told that to a Gorean a city or a community is a living and breathing entity. So, no, I'm not wrong. The other regional cities didn't see Port Kar as a city because it was lacking a Home Stone. Neither does the inhabitants themselves think of Port Kar as a city, if you put it up against what else we're shown of what Goreans think of their cities.

That much is made clear here;

Port Kar

The City Without a Home Stone...

In all of Gor, only one city so depraved, so riven, so careless of pride, its inhabitants so heedless to all but their own selfish interest, that there were none to care that the city had no heart--for none gave allegiance except to himself.

Preword, Raiders of Gor, Ballantine, First Canadian Printing, 1971

So again, no, I'm not wrong. We are also told more than a few times through Raiders after Tarl has entered Port Kar, how its inhabitants sees their own city, let alone how Tarl witnesses it. To me, this speak of it not being seen or understood *AS* a Gorean city by them.

And no, you don't have to go back to look as the social practice of the Home Stone is a namely Northern Gorean one and as such you won't find it in the books being practiced in Schendi, between the Wagon People of the Southern Plains, the Red Hunters of the far north, the men of Torvaldsland, the Alars, the various tribes of the Tahari, the Red Savages of the Barrens besides in that region of Gor. I think I also have pointed this out before, and done so more than once, not just here but at other places as well. I have also made it very clear that owning a Home Stone doesn't make anyone a Gorean. If you want to have at it, go ahead. I think I made this clear to Trevelyan in one of my posts to him, discussing this point and making clear the same I do to you as I did to him.

So, I dont understand Port Kar as a Gorean city because it is described to be 1) without a heart and 2) the surrounding cities of the Vosk don't seem to think it so either, as does the inhabitants of Port Kar itself. As I wrote

quote:

yes, it had all the trappings of a city, as I have already explained, tho it is (to them) missing one vital part, a Home Stone, which for them embodies that as being *A* Gorean city.

and by that I still stand, as the proof is given in that directing....by John Norman himself.

I wish you well,

Camerius

< Message edited by Camerius -- 1/29/2010 6:20:32 AM >

_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to Malkinius)

Profile

Post #: 83

RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/29/2010 9:28:09 PM

Nephilim

Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline

I think there would be forums with 95% less boring arguing if Goreans understood the difference between literal and metaphorical word usage. Seem simple, group of people in a port with lots of buildings, commerce government. Should be able to call that a city...it is... It doesn't share my definition of what a city "should" be, well then it by metaphor or hyperbole or relativistic use of the language is no city. In fact it does not exist to me. Hear that, Port Kar does not exist! Wait, it was fiction, it really doesn't exist. My head hurts, I must lie down.

(in reply to Camerius)

Profile

Post #: 84

RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/29/2010 10:46:33 PM

MasterAramis

Posts: 279
Joined: 7/29/2008
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

My head hurts, I must lie down

Well after having put up at least 12 posts in the last couple of hours I imagine your head would hurt LOL!

Have fun.

Aramis

_____________________________

"He who would be a man must be a master. He who surrenders his mastery surrenders his manhood." - Players of Gor

(in reply to Nephilim)

Profile

Post #: 85

RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/30/2010 1:32:02 AM

ThatIam

Posts: 1
Joined: 1/28/2010
Status: offline

wow camerius you really have the 1973 ballantine edition 3'rd printing of Raiders of Gor, you really must be the most truest gorean, the goreanest of them all.

< Message edited by ThatIam -- 1/30/2010 1:57:37 AM >

(in reply to MasterAramis)

Profile

Post #: 86

RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/30/2010 2:35:53 AM

Naturallurker

Posts: 117
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nephilim

I think there would be forums with 95% less boring arguing if Goreans understood the difference between literal and metaphorical word usage. Seem simple, group of people in a port with lots of buildings, commerce government. Should be able to call that a city...it is... It doesn't share my definition of what a city "should" be, well then it by metaphor or hyperbole or relativistic use of the language is no city. In fact it does not exist to me. Hear that, Port Kar does not exist! Wait, it was fiction, it really doesn't exist. My head hurts, I must lie down.

While I realise over there in the USA what defines a city as a city may vary to the historical definition here in the UK, you might want to consider the possibility that the good professor had in the back of his mind that historically in Britain (and therefore in the English language) however large an urban setting might be it can only properly be called a city once granted city status by the monarch. Traditionally a city was granted such a warrant if it included with in its bounds a university or a diocesan cathedral.

Now before any one jumps down my throat and sings but the author was American and while my knowledge of what small children are taught there the idea that a place might be densely built up and "thought" of as constituting a city while continuing to be lacking that final piece of the jigsaw that makes it a city in fact, is not perplexing to many of us.

It never fails to surprise me however, that despite how early in the series Home Stones are written about,they remain grossly misunderstood by so many people they can be. To the role players the "homestone" is nothing more than a place they call their cyber home, to others the Home Stone carries all the importance they in turn place on their countries flags.

The sad thing is that just as Home Stones have become bastardised into homestones by people who just dont care so have national flags. Something to be hung out when the national football (soccer to you Americans ;) is playing, or to daub as face paint on mentally prepubescent men. It is less that a flag becomes a prop, that saddens me, and more that we in the West, lost any sense of caring about our cultural heritages, our national pride, where it remains, became such a negative thing unless there was a football match going on. While less commercially successful nations retained theirs we swapped ours for a handful of white goods.

My Home Stone is a very small white pebble inscribed with the word strength.

< Message edited by Naturallurker -- 1/30/2010 2:37:49 AM >

(in reply to Nephilim)

Profile

Post #: 87

RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/30/2010 8:13:49 AM

Nephilim

Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline

The whole flag thing(in part), I think was the point the author was trying to make. Sure by the definition of not being recognized by a certain king they wouldnt be a city. But we still have always called the italian city-states of history cities right? But that doesn't really present a contradiction between philosophies only word usage and arguing whos definition is better. The concept is simple, as a literal thing, its a city, many people reject its concept because of its lack of similar principles to their own. Nothing to see there.

Another reason I was thinking port kar had no home stone is aside from the division, it was largely a collection of outlaws. These people had left their codes behind and probably had lost some self esteem along with it. That was the case with Tarl, it took quite awhile to realize that a mistake or simple action does not separate a person from their beliefs. So, perhaps they hadn't established their own home stone because they felt unworthy of it since many had felt they had already betrayed another. Port Kar served a purpose on Gor, it was a place where men without honor or who thought they had lost it, could go and not be constantly reminded of it.

(in reply to Naturallurker)

Profile

Post #: 88

RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/30/2010 7:58:24 PM

D221

Posts: 6
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline

To Everyone,
Many of you wrote about the Home Stone and strongly emphasized importance of community, but if all of you are Goreans doesn't that mean that you're all a part of the same community. Even if you don't all agree or share the same ideas and beliefs as to what it means to Gorean can't you at least show each other a little respect for simply being Gorean.
Thank you all for the lesson in humanity.

(in reply to Nephilim)

Profile

Post #: 89

RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/30/2010 8:11:28 PM

AnimusRex

Posts: 2104
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: D221
Even if you don't all agree or share the same ideas and beliefs as to what it means to Gorean can't you at least show each other a little respect for simply being Gorean.

Now its my turn to say if you read any Gor book...or hell, read the first three pages of any Gorean book...you will quickly be disabused of any such notion as "respect for simply being Gorean."

There is no Gorean translation of Kumbaya.

(in reply to D221)

Profile

Post #: 90

RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/30/2010 9:00:09 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

There is no Gorean translation of Kumbaya.

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to AnimusRex)

Profile

Post #: 91

RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/31/2010 9:48:45 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: D221

To Everyone,
Many of you wrote about the Home Stone and strongly emphasized importance of community, but if all of you are Goreans doesn't that mean that you're all a part of the same community. Even if you don't all agree or share the same ideas and beliefs as to what it means to Gorean can't you at least show each other a little respect for simply being Gorean.
Thank you all for the lesson in humanity.

By this argument, there are no nations, no churches, no organizations, because their members don't always play nice.

Don't mistake blind, simplistic cynicism for moral high ground. And if you'll look, read, consider instead of reacting and protecting your ego, you'll quickly learn the people here respect each other very much---even those of us who disagree.

Anyone can trash, kid. Learn to recognize value where you find it.

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to D221)

Profile

Post #: 92

RE: What makes you a gorean? - 1/31/2010 1:56:44 PM

MasterAramis

Posts: 279
Joined: 7/29/2008
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

D221,

First let me throw out this caveat as it is important to some people; I don't come out and say that I am Gorean. For me it is a journey. If I come to a point where I can stand up and beat my chest and say I am a Gorean man, that might indeed may make my statements qualify as authoritative to some. For me, I judge a man by his actions, his honor, the way he carries himself. I know of some men who are not even Gorean, but I would venture to guess that if they read the books they would quickly relate to John Norman's work.

I think Bull described it best:

quote:

If not just imagine this, be true to yourself, live as the man, woman or even beast you are, apply the values, principles and/or tennets you feel important and if in that you feel Gorean or are somehow mistaken as one by others, then that is quite possibly who or what you just might be. Apart from that all you'll ever be is an opinion of an idea.

With that said, the men on here for the most part are men of distinction and have been doing this quite a long time. The likes of Bull, Tim, Malkinious, Orion and Camerius and other men here embrace the philosophy and spend an enormous amount of time studying the books, having meaningful discourse as to their meaning and put the lessons found in the books in practice in their daily lives and even if they disagree as to the meaning, I would venture to guess that if indeed they called someone friend, it would not be some superficial title, but something of meaning and substance. The great thing about these men, based on the limited knowledge I have of them, they live what they say.

I would encourage you to reexamine the thread you started and the ensuing responses and see if perhaps you might have missed something in the translation. As with most things Gorean, you need to open your mind to new concepts. Keep in mind, these men, might not have responded to you in a manner you are accustomed to or perhaps expected. That is their way. I know you are new, so I am taking the time to write this and hopefully making some inroads with you, but the bottom line, you came here. When you spoke of respect; remember that you are in their backyard. The rules of engagement here are not the same as perhaps other forums. I find that most are direct and sometimes people who are not used to that approach become defensive. Trust me I have been there and done that, but becoming defensive is not the answer and it just creates more of a mess.

I wish you well on your journey.

Aramis

< Message edited by MasterAramis -- 1/31/2010 2:02:16 PM >

_____________________________

"He who would be a man must be a master. He who surrenders his mastery surrenders his manhood." - Players of Gor

(in reply to D221)

Profile

Post #: 93