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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 11:01:27 AM

sexyred1

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Great, now I keep hearing Tina Turner sing that...

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 11:04:14 AM

ishyB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wildnbeautiful

because i was gor 12 yrs and you can take the girl out of gor but not gor outta the girl lol

Twelve years you say... I see... Do you also refer to yourself as being "america" instead of being "an American"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: wildnbeautiful

2/9/2010 11:57:23 AM
im refraining from asking ,commenting anymore on this site people are rude not mentioning anyone here just i think ill refrain from these boards..

2/9/2010 12:02:14 PM
do you seriously have to comment on everything i say or do are you that concerned or obseessed GET OVER IT CHIKA..and MOVE along thankyou..besides hmm no profile found for you hmm

2/9/2010 12:18:16 PM
i didnt cause my children anything what im the one who is treted like a criminal for something my husband did that was premeditated and its my fault? its not my fault nor her fault it happened I cant change it but i have learned from it so its still mute..

Seeing that you are so eager to discuss the honor...

Would you consider it dishonorable for a person to say that they are going to do A and then instead do B?
In what context would you consider it honorable for a person to contradict their own word?
What kind of personal code would a person need to have in order for them to be able to contradict their own word and still be honorable?

I wish you well,

ishy

< Message edited by ishyB -- 2/9/2010 11:08:17 AM >

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 11:47:03 AM

domiguy

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"What's Gor Got To Do With It"

You must understand
I've done all that I can
And I don't get it
It's hardly a thrill
Reading John Norman's swill
it's a piece of shit

It's whimsical
reprehensible
You must try to ignore
That it is more than that

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Oh whats Gor got to do, got to do with it
What's Gor but a planetary token
What's Gor got to do, got to do with it
Who needs a slave
When a slave can be broken

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 11:48:28 AM

MasterAramis

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quote:

my Master says people who TRY to steal anothers collered girl has no honor/respect for others.. what is your thoughts?

After reading the other threads in this post, I understand there are some other issues going on here, but I will keep my response directly to this question.

First of all, I hear this primary cry, "well if you were his, he couldn't take you!" This might be very true, but it still does not negate the fact that someone was trying to take something that at the moment, was not officially available to take. Is that honorable? I guess you need to decide.

What about the woman? Is she performing an honorable act by allowing it to happen? I mean really, shouldn't she go to her "owner" and ask for release if he really doesn't own her or is unable to enslave her? Again that is something you will need to decide.

Everyone's view of honor is different, but for me if an employee took something from my office without asking or even intending to bring it back, I call that stealing. Is stealing honorable?

Many people make excuses for lapses of "honor";

It's okay to do something wrong at work, my boss will never know.
It's okay to cheat on my wife because she will never find out.
it's okay to cheat on my husband because I don't really love him anymore.

and the list goes on and on.

As for Ishtar's post, she is right, this has nothing to do with GOR or even BDSM. It has something to do with a person's value system.

Aramis

< Message edited by MasterAramis -- 2/9/2010 12:04:57 PM >

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 11:50:53 AM

MasterAramis

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Domiguy,

You are so damn creative!

Aramis

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 11:57:58 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterAramis

Domiguy,

You are so damn creative!

Aramis

And freakin hilarious

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 2:20:27 PM

OrionTheWolf

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~FR~

In the Plains Indian Culture theft of a horse gained you a lot of honor. In the surrounding white communities of that time, it was a hanging offense.

If someone is a "stranger" to me, then I will conquer what I desire. They will either be strong enough to defend what is theirs, or I will be strong enough to seize what I wish. If someone is not a stranger, then I view protection of what is theirs as part of my duty to them as a friend, neighbor, etc. There is no conflict in this application, it is circumstance that dictates many things in nature and in society.

Live well,
Orion

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 2:36:00 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

In the Plains Indian Culture theft of a horse gained you a lot of honor. In the surrounding white communities of that time, it was a hanging offense.

If someone is a "stranger" to me, then I will conquer what I desire. They will either be strong enough to defend what is theirs, or I will be strong enough to seize what I wish. If someone is not a stranger, then I view protection of what is theirs as part of my duty to them as a friend, neighbor, etc. There is no conflict in this application, it is circumstance that dictates many things in nature and in society.

Live well,
Orion

Lets face facts, most people are not "stranger" than you. You will conquer what you desire?

What a load of crap.

This is a poorly written sentiment or just a poorly constructed thought.

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 3:19:22 PM

starshineowned

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quote:

my Master says people who TRY to steal anothers collered girl has no honor/respect for others.. what is your thoughts?

As the good folks have stated so far..when it comes to what is or isn't honorable/respectable practice..its all a personal view of what those things mean.

I could not really say this act was dishonorable or disrespectful...but I would call it cowardly if the Man attempting to take did so via the girl instead of going to the Man who owned the girl.

Then again..what prompted the Man wanting to take? Generally it is the girl putting herself out there in some manner from what I've seen, and if that is the case..why would a Man want a girl who is that disloyal to sneak around behind instead of communicate upfront and openly to their owner the mastery is failing or has failed?

Slaves may be beasts and given that over all tone of not having any responsibility for their actions..but honestly that can only go so far.

starshine

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 3:37:50 PM

barelynangel

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So i take it she either hid her profile or she deleted it as its not found anymore. Lord love the faint of heart.

This isn't to me about a slave having loyalty. Its about why slave's exist as well slaves. They exist because some need is demanding to be fed and they seek it until it starts being fed.   As long as that need is being fed than all is well.   If a woman decides to STAY with a Man out of loyalty, then how is that in any way being a slave -- to me that is being self-determining which is what FW do. A slave has some responsibility to stay with a Man whom is the facade of a Master to her? She has some responsibility to hold herself in slavery for a Man incapable of doing so? Umm no. Sorry that is way to complex for what slavery is.   If you are his wife or have kids with him okay maybe -- but that is beyond the scope of slavery.

IF that is why they stay with one man instead of following their reactions and instincts to another, than that is self-determined. HOWEVER, most men who own slaves do so by HOLDING the slave. The leash she is on through his mastery and enslavement will overcome most of her urges to follow another, why? Because she is being fed in the mastery of her current owner.

Yeah, sorry folks, slavery is not a til death do us part sentiment. While its nice to strive for, the concept doesn't belong in slavery of Gorean. Why? Because to achieve same because of that sentiment, a self-determination of the woman then comes into play.   And there is a determination of compromise that she must adhere to because of some concept of loyalty. NOW, do many slaves feel loyalty to their owners -- yep. BUT if that is what is KEEPING HER as his slave when her reaction is to follow another, to me its re-evaluation time because its HER holding herself to him.

Slaves don't have honor, not in the concept many want to place upon this concept.   A slave does not have the freedom to DEFINE what she lives by and therefore, she does not have the ability because she doens't have the freedom to adhere to a concept of honor. She is a slave.   To try and place HONOR upon a slave is to me someone who is too afraid of slavery and want the slave to maintain the concept of FW.   Honor needs self-determination and the freedom to execute the determinations of self.   Sorry, within GOR, a slave doesn't have that ability. Yeah it kinda sucks and seems wrong to many, but if you understand slave within the concept of Gorean, this would not seem wrong but simply what is based on the slavery.

A slave knows what she deems right from wrong, a slave is usually intelligent enough to determine same. These have no bearing on the concept of honor or loyalty. There is no right or wrong for a woman who is slave to STAY with a Man who cannot hold her in his mastery. TO ME, its wrong for her to remain and use herself to hold herself in slavery to a Man incapable of doing so.

Those slaves who are firmly held, who are snug in their figurative leashes -- have no need to worry about figuring out if she should be loyal to her Master or honorable in remaining -- she doesn't have to think that hard for her Master has already set the environment and atmosphere wherein she simply is held by him and HIS determinations for her -- not someone elses for her. No honor or loyalty needed. Its really that simple.

The complexity comes in when people try and place FREE concept on slaves and try and make situations as the OP stated into a concept SLAVES DON'T DEAL WITHIN.

Sometimes people make slavery so damn complicated with trying to make sure women who are slaves have the dignity of concepts like honor and loyalty, when in fact they don't.   But gee we really don't want to see slaves to be that way. We want to make sure they have all the attributes FW live within because it gives the slave some pride in our society. This issue has nothing to do with the slave but is an issue between Men -- one an owner, one who wants to own.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 2/9/2010 3:49:44 PM >

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 3:44:52 PM

Trevelyan

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I don't know you domiguy, other than the evidence in this thread that you have a great sense of humor and skill with words.

From a Gorean point of view, Orion's post makes perfect sense and is well constructed thought.

Honor is being who you profess yourself to be.

In the Plains Indian Culture, actually stealing a horse was considered to be an honorable demonstration that you are in fact the brave and skillful warrior you profess yourself to be. Most members of the white settler culture professed themselves to be people who adhered to the Judeo-Christen ethic of the 10 commandments. Stealing a horse, to them, would be failure to adhere to the "thou shalt not steal" commandment, and therefore dishonorable. This is a good example of the same action viewed as honorable by one culture and dishonorable by another culture due to differences in what the members of the culture profess themselves to be.

Goreans profess themselves to be different from the members of the currently dominant North American culture. To them, the right to property is only created by the strength of the owner to protect it. A Gorean man professes himself to be strong enough to protect his property. He also professes to be strong enough to take another's property if he wants to. It is honorable both to protect his own property, and to take the property of others if he is able to do so. The exception to that is if he shares a Home Stone with the other person. Then, their shared allegiance to their Home Stone obliges them to cooperate and respect each other's property rights.

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 3:45:58 PM

MasterAramis

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quote:

What a load of crap.

Well Domi,

I don't think it's a load of crap, that's what he believes. Every man for himself and all that. Gorean's believe in the natural order of things and it you can't keep her, then shame on you for not being strong enough to Master her. Or perhaps you didn't really want her anyway, or maybe she isn't worth having, who the fuck knows.

In honesty, I see the shit that my slave gets in her mailbox from men on here. Orion is not too far off. My slave's profile clearly states she is owned. Our web blog says it too, yet the number of men who contact her for ownership is astounding.

Let me tell you, display your property on here and you will see them all come out of the woodwork. There is no honor amongst men. Perhaps just fools.

Aramis

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 5:10:46 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

I don't know you domiguy, other than the evidence in this thread that you have a great sense of humor and skill with words.

From a Gorean point of view, Orion's post makes perfect sense and is well constructed thought.

Honor is being who you profess yourself to be.

.

Goreans profess themselves to be different from the members of the currently dominant North American culture. To them, the right to property is only created by the strength of the owner to protect it. A Gorean man professes himself to be strong enough to protect his property. He also professes to be strong enough to take another's property if he wants to. It is honorable both to protect his own property, and to take the property of others if he is able to do so. The exception to that is if he shares a Home Stone with the other person. Then, their shared allegiance to their Home Stone obliges them to cooperate and respect each other's property rights.

Tal,

As The Great Earthly Ambassador to Gor I often find myself a little perplexed by the Gorean belief system. Though I walk amongst you, sometimes I have to admit that you are a very odd group.

It's fine that you believe in honor and dignity and yadda yadda yadda. But I have to continually remind my fellow Earthlings that you mean them no harm or ill will and will not be jacking their whips or wenches.

Here on Earth just because your neighbor be weak and has an ill equipped automobile alarm system doesn't mean you get to to take his ride for a spin. Unfortunately here in the States that is often referred to as Grand Larceny.

Now all of your honor dignity and strength ain't gonna save yo ass from Bubba. He's that white supremacist standing over there by the free weights. He ain't all that found of minorities and has a particular hard on for all things Gorean. Good luck when dealing with him.

It is fine to have a belief system. But when that belief system flies totally in the face of reality it just comes across as being a tad bit kooky.

I am doing my best to avoid an uprising. As you know these Earthlings can be a finicky lot. Just trying to avoid the Great kajira round up and roast of '96. It took me damn near six weeks to get the smell of burning kajira out of my clothes, car and carpet.

Be well.

Mal,

The Great Earthly Ambassador to Gor Lord Domiguy.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 2/9/2010 5:32:47 PM >

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 5:38:56 PM

MasterAramis

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quote:

It is fine to have a belief system. But when that belief system flies totally in the face of reality it just comes across as being a tad bit kooky.

Domiguy,

I enjoy your posts. You crack me up!

But does it really?? I have been giving this much thought over this all afternoon, even after I originally posted. So the question becomes is it really stealing? Hell, using your philosophy, if she goes with him, it's implied consent here in the United States. (Seeing as we don't have any legal authority over "property"). The only authority we have is whether or not it is based on our ability to enslave a woman or not. If she is truly enslaved, we won't need bubba.

I am not sure Orion was really off even in an earthly sense of it. Hey this isn't just a Gor thing. How many woman step out on their husbands? How many men step out on their wives, girlfriends or whatever. Man it's a real Payton Place out there! Just look at the divorce statistics.

Does it make the action "honorable" in the traditional earthly way? No it doesn't, but that doesn't seem to stop it from happening.

What I love about Goreans is they make no qualms about it. If your wench is worth taking, you bet they will come sniffing. If your wench gives even the slightest inkling she is available, you may wake up one night and she's gone! Moral of the story; Hold on to your wench because they will JACK your wench if given the opportunity!

Aramis

< Message edited by MasterAramis -- 2/9/2010 5:51:25 PM >

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 5:51:16 PM

xxblushesxx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

I don't know you domiguy, other than the evidence in this thread that you have a great sense of humor and skill with words.

From a Gorean point of view, Orion's post makes perfect sense and is well constructed thought.

Honor is being who you profess yourself to be.

In the Plains Indian Culture, actually stealing a horse was considered to be an honorable demonstration that you are in fact the brave and skillful warrior you profess yourself to be. Most members of the white settler culture professed themselves to be people who adhered to the Judeo-Christen ethic of the 10 commandments. Stealing a horse, to them, would be failure to adhere to the "thou shalt not steal" commandment, and therefore dishonorable. This is a good example of the same action viewed as honorable by one culture and dishonorable by another culture due to differences in what the members of the culture profess themselves to be.

Goreans profess themselves to be different from the members of the currently dominant North American culture. To them, the right to property is only created by the strength of the owner to protect it. A Gorean man professes himself to be strong enough to protect his property. He also professes to be strong enough to take another's property if he wants to. It is honorable both to protect his own property, and to take the property of others if he is able to do so. The exception to that is if he shares a Home Stone with the other person. Then, their shared allegiance to their Home Stone obliges them to cooperate and respect each other's property rights.

Hello Trevelyan;

The reason those of us who are not Gorean are posting here is because the OP admittedly found herself a "master", and within 3 months of online talking, she picked up herself and her children and moved in with him. He, in turn, eventually beat and raped her sixteen year old daughter.

Any mother should be honorable enough to protect what is hers. Or to at least be much more careful when choosing someone. And NOT move your children in with someone you think you know because you talked to them on the internet for a few months.

I could try to tell you how angry it makes me that this happened, and then again how angry I am that the "mother" claims that her child is fine (even though she has since moved them in with another "dom and domme") but, there really aren't any words for this.

Honor is taking responsibility for you and yours, owning up to your part in a very disturbing situation, trying to make it right.

None of those things happened in this case. Therefore, the woman who wrote this...as far as I'm concerned, can go pound sand.

I feel so bad for her children though. Truly.

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 6:00:41 PM

domiguy

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Tal,

All is fair in love and war. No one actually has claim to our woman folk and I guess they are free to go where they please.

You have to remember that CM is an open air environment and all of the postings about being "owned" or in a relationship mean absolutely nothing on this here internetty thang. Anyon e can approach anyone without facing any real dire consequences...Now face to face is entirely a different animal. How many men are actually going to come up straight to your face and approach your wonderful kajira right while you are standing there? Very few. Doesn't matter if you are a beautiful and bold Gorean or the burliest of Earthlings. This shit is not tolerated and quite frankly is as unsavory as it is unacceptable behavior.

If Goreans actually lived their belief system they would have no fear in approaching us Earthlings and attempting to steal our sexy American gals. I don't think this has ever transpired in the real world. In it's stead we find a Gorean dating board where Gorean men are rather forced to deal and try and wooo the Goreattes of their dreams amd desires.

No big deal, it simply is what it is.

Mal,

The Great Earthly Ambassador to Gor Lord Domiguy

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 6:17:57 PM

Musicmystery

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Hey guys,

I'm going to stay out of both the cat fight and the chest beating. But I do want to clarify a point about Plains Indian horse thing.

To steal a horse from someone weak would not bring honor. To steal a horse from a great, respected, worthy enemy would.

I don't keep horses anyway.

Live well,

Tim

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 6:29:25 PM

domiguy

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No cat fight. Just a discussion that has been unusually civil.

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 6:31:36 PM

Trevelyan

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domiguy,

If the Gorean belief system perplexes you, it is probably because you don't know much about it.

Can you articulate the Gorean belief system?

For that matter, can you articulate your own belief system?

I wonder if I would think that any of your beliefs fly in the face of reality, or are a tad bit kooky.

You are a funny guy.

You should probably stick with that.

If you want to make a somewhat serious comment like the one you made to Orion, you need to show a lot more intellectual substance.

I think you should stick with lightweight and funny.

Trevelyan

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 6:43:04 PM

MasterAramis

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quote:

You are a funny guy.

You should probably stick with that.

He does lighten things up a bit!

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