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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 6:56:50 PM

Trevelyan

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Agreed.

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 7:06:27 PM

Jeffff

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A few years ago, Aswad and I had a long, and it being Aswad, nit picking discussion on honor.

It came down to honor being personal.

If Orion comes to take whats is mine simply because he perceives I am weak and he wants it, is that honorable? If he comes to take it because he perceives I am strong. is THAT honorable? What if what is mine does not wish to be taken, and he takes it anyway is that honorable?

If I stop him, by any means necessary, do I become honorable?

And finally, what of the law of the land? If I am weak and he comes to take it and is then arrested and jailed, is that honorable? Or is that kooky?

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 7:16:33 PM

Cherylmazana

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Personally I don’t believe it is possible to steal a person, not unless the thief swooped down on his tarn and pulled her up into the sky binding her and so stealing her from her legal master, in which case the legal owner has a number of days to try to recover her before she is his legally.

What I do believe is possible is for one person to get bored with another and go hunting that greener grass, in which case the “owner” was too weak to hold the girl, the girl has no loyalty and the new “owner” has just acquired a girl who will most likely leave him for someone better in the future.

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 7:18:31 PM

Jeffff

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I completely agree. I was addressing a philosophical point, if poorly..:)

Jeff

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 7:27:17 PM

Cherylmazana

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I suppose Jeff, the question becomes can you steal a person who in our culture cannot be property and no one legally has the right to enslave her if you don’t use force just honeyed words and persuasion?

To me it seems pretty much like willing consent not stealing; after all can you steal what is given freely?

Of course if we were talking an actual horse not a person then it is a different matter, Goreans lived by the laws of their culture, and our culture says that stealing is wrong, so when it comes down to actual theft of legally owned property you either steal which is considered dishonorable in our culture and pay the penalty if caught or go live somewhere that stealing is a part of their culture and accepted as honorable under certain circumstances.

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 7:37:30 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

domiguy,

If the Gorean belief system perplexes you, it is probably because you don't know much about it.

Can you articulate the Gorean belief system?

For that matter, can you articulate your own belief system?

I wonder if I would think that any of your beliefs fly in the face of reality, or are a tad bit kooky.

You are a funny guy.

You should probably stick with that.

If you want to make a somewhat serious comment like the one you made to Orion, you need to show a lot more intellectual substance.

I think you should stick with lightweight and funny.

Trevelyan

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

If someone is a "stranger" to me, then I will conquer what I desire. They will either be strong enough to defend what is theirs, or I will be strong enough to seize what I wish. If someone is not a stranger, then I view protection of what is theirs as part of my duty to them as a friend, neighbor, etc. There is no conflict in this application, it is circumstance that dictates many things in nature and in society.

Live well,
Orion

I don't believe Orion is necessarily talking about "women." It sounds like he is addressing the acquiring of possessions as well .....He says quite clearly, "If someone is a "stranger" to me, then I will conquer what I desire. They will either be strong enough to defend what is theirs, or I will be strong enough to seize what I wish."

I contend that either he believes in something that has no application in how the world actually functions or is fairly deluded in his thinking.

There is nothing lighthearted or overly funny in my finding out more about this way of thinking.

To answer your question, I don't think that I cling to or hold beliefs that are in contrast to the workings of the world. While my beliefs often get confronted they still are based upon a notion of how things work or have the realistic potential of working.

This is what I see gravely lacking here.

What say you?

< Message edited by domiguy -- 2/9/2010 7:39:32 PM >

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 7:43:39 PM

Trevelyan

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Like I said, honor is being who you profess yourself to be.

Do you realize that over the course of human history, other men have held opinions about what is good and bad that are different from the opinions you hold, and that they felt they were just as right about the correctness of their opinions as you do about yours?

Do you feel that your opinions about what is good and bad are 100% correct, or that they are merely your opinions?

Do you think it is possible that men who live a hundred years from now may wonder at how you could possibly have held the opinions and beliefs you hold?

To give you the Gorean answer to your questions:

If you and Orion do not share a Home Stone, and he wants what you have, it is honorable for him to take it, whether he percieves you to be weak or strong. (It may not mean anything to you, but think of what a tarn strike is in the books.)

The desires of the property are immaterial. If he wants it and takes it, and you two do not share a Home Stone, it is honorable.

It is honorable for you to stop him from taking the property. It is also honorable to pursue him to the ends of the Earth to get back what he took from you.

Regarding the law of the land, as I have said, if you and he share a Home Stone (are citizens of the same community) and he took something that belonged to you, he would have violated his oath of allegiance to the Home Stone you share, which is dishonorable, and would rightly be punished, probably by having a hand cut off or public impalement.

His caste codes may also affect what he does. For example, Merchants believe in the willing exchange of mutual value. A Merchant does not take payment if unable to deliver value. A merchant would feel that taking something that did not belong to him is a violation of his caste code and therefore dishonorable.

Goreans operate by a different set of beliefs and values. You may not agree with them, but that means that you are not Gorean, not that their beliefs and values are "wrong."

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 7:49:56 PM

domiguy

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Tal,

It does not mean that they are "wrong" it just means they have no practical use.

Too short of an answer. Apparently Orion and I do not share a homestone. If he steals from me he goes to jail. Pretty cut and clear. The courts won't care in the least about Gor or the boundaries of your homestone.

In a hundred years from now? Please, all of the anti aging serum on Gor won't get you there.

Let's keep the conversation relevant to the times of today.

I would not have to chase Orion to the end of the Earth. That would be the job of the local authorities.

I hope this helps.

Mal,

The Great Earthly Ambassador to Gor Lord Domiguy

< Message edited by domiguy -- 2/9/2010 7:58:08 PM >

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 7:58:59 PM

Cherylmazana

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So Trevelyan you are saying that to a Gorean the laws of the land do not matter because he is Gorean? That laws of an imaginary culture are of more importance than the laws of the country you are living in? I just can’t wait to see you argue that in court. Go for it, after all you have the right as a Gorean to take whatever you want or maybe you won’t take whatever you want and you will tell yourself it’s not because you will end up in court it’s because you don’t really want it anyway.

And as for using the Home Stone to justify theft, wow that really is impressive, How many people do you share a Home Stone with? Enough to rewrite their own laws and declaire independence I suppose from the way you are talking. I am sure that was John Normans idea when he wrote the books to get people banding together to say “as I don’t share a Home Stone with you I can take what I like by force”, after all that goes quite well with the swords of others quote that keeps popping up. The thing is I always thought that the swords of others translated quite well into the laws of our countries, though they are a pain stopping all those Torvaldslanders from raping and pillaging, it’s probably why we don’t see them or the savages riding over the hillside to rustle the women and ravish the sheep.

Have you even considered what you are actually saying? Or are you just reacting to some idiot who seems to be having a lot of fun poking fun at some of the more ridiculous statements that come out on Gorean forums.

One thing I always keep in mind is something my dad used to say a lot when hearing people grumble about our country and its laws, or the fact they couldn’t do here what they did in (inset country of your choice), if you don’t like it here bugger off and find somewhere that fits your idea of how things should be. If you ever find the planet Gor please send me a postcard.

Cheryl

< Message edited by Cherylmazana -- 2/9/2010 8:02:33 PM >

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 8:10:46 PM

Trevelyan

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domiguy,

I agree with you - Orion is talking about property. His statement, which you bolded, is absolutely in line with my understanding of Gorean thought. I recognize that it is antithetical to modern American thought. It is also in line with the thought that fueled Rome, Great Britain and American Manifest Destiny.

You contend that either Orion believes in something that has no application in how the world actually functions or is fairly deluded in his thinking. I am trying to point out to you that that is your OPINION. You may be correct in your OPINION or you may be incorrect. If you accept without question that your OPINIONS are 100% correct, and that anyone who thinks differently is deluded in his thinking, then you are deluded in your thinking.

You hold many of your OPINIONS because of the culture you live in. Do you honestly think that all of your OPINIONS are correct, just because they are generally accepted in your culture? Are you big enough to contemplate the possibility that they may not be correct?

You did not answer either of the two questions I asked you. What you wrote was that you believe that your beliefs are based on a notion of how things work or have the realistic potential of working. That belief of yours about your beliefs is an OPINION, not a fact. You may think it is a fact, but it is an OPINION.

What is lacking here is the intellectual substance on your part to admit to the possibility that someone else's opinion may actually be a better representation of how things work than your opinion.

Trevelyan

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 8:31:33 PM

Trevelyan

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Cheryl,

I am not saying that to a Gorean the laws of the land do not matter because he is Gorean. I am saying that the laws of his land absolutely do matter to him because he is Gorean.

I am an American citizen. As a Gorean, I "share a Home Stone" with all other American citizens.

I am not using Home Stone to justify theft. I am saying that the Goreans in the books have no problem with taking something they desire from someone with whom they do not share a Home Stone.

Yes, I have considered at great length what I am saying.

Regarding your final paragraph, I am not complaining about the United States or its laws. As a matter of fact, I love my country; have taken an oath to preserve, protect and defend our Constitution; have been loyal to that oath under the fire of our country's enemies; and gave my youth to the service of my country. Are their certain things that I disagree with? Absolutely. I make my opinion known, and vote in accorance with it. I think that is being a good and loyal citizen.

Trevelyan

< Message edited by Trevelyan -- 2/9/2010 8:35:10 PM >

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 8:32:50 PM

xxblushesxx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

domiguy,

I agree with you - Orion is talking about property. His statement, which you bolded, is absolutely in line with my understanding of Gorean thought. I recognize that it is antithetical to modern American thought. It is also in line with the thought that fueled Rome, Great Britain and American Manifest Destiny.

You contend that either Orion believes in something that has no application in how the world actually functions or is fairly deluded in his thinking. I am trying to point out to you that that is your OPINION. You may be correct in your OPINION or you may be incorrect. If you accept without question that your OPINIONS are 100% correct, and that anyone who thinks differently is deluded in his thinking, then you are deluded in your thinking.

You hold many of your OPINIONS because of the culture you live in. Do you honestly think that all of your OPINIONS are correct, just because they are generally accepted in your culture? Are you big enough to contemplate the possibility that they may not be correct?

You did not answer either of the two questions I asked you. What you wrote was that you believe that your beliefs are based on a notion of how things work or have the realistic potential of working. That belief of yours about your beliefs is an OPINION, not a fact. You may think it is a fact, but it is an OPINION.

What is lacking here is the intellectual substance on your part to admit to the possibility that someone else's opinion may actually be a better representation of how things work than your opinion.

Trevelyan

Erm...Mr. Tevelyan Sir...actually...opinion doesn't have as much to do with it as law...as DG pointed out.
Go to court for anything and argue opinion while your opponent argues law and see what happens.

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 8:38:09 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

domiguy,

I agree with you - Orion is talking about property. His statement, which you bolded, is absolutely in line with my understanding of Gorean thought. I recognize that it is antithetical to modern American thought. It is also in line with the thought that fueled Rome, Great Britain and American Manifest Destiny.

You contend that either Orion believes in something that has no application in how the world actually functions or is fairly deluded in his thinking. I am trying to point out to you that that is your OPINION. You may be correct in your OPINION or you may be incorrect. If you accept without question that your OPINIONS are 100% correct, and that anyone who thinks differently is deluded in his thinking, then you are deluded in your thinking.

You hold many of your OPINIONS because of the culture you live in. Do you honestly think that all of your OPINIONS are correct, just because they are generally accepted in your culture? Are you big enough to contemplate the possibility that they may not be correct?

You did not answer either of the two questions I asked you. What you wrote was that you believe that your beliefs are based on a notion of how things work or have the realistic potential of working. That belief of yours about your beliefs is an OPINION, not a fact. You may think it is a fact, but it is an OPINION.

What is lacking here is the intellectual substance on your part to admit to the possibility that someone else's opinion may actually be a better representation of how things work than your opinion.

Trevelyan

Tal,

Please, try and stay on point. Everything that is written here is an opinion. No where did I state that any of these beliefs are absolute facts?

I did not posts my beliefs on acquiring anothers property...Would it really further the conversation if I laid them out?

What I am taking exception with is one item. One set of beliefs. Those which Orion posted and you seem to think mirrors Gorean thought.

I am saying that it has no real relevance and is a rather absurd notion in that it has absolutely no bearing on how the matter of acquisition of one's property would be dealt with in the American legal system. Not only is it an absurd notion it is not even practiced by Goreans. How practical or absurd is it to believe in something that you are completely unable to put into practice?

If you continue to bring up rather obsolete notions of the policies of past eras you will only further my side of the discussion.

I understand that these core beliefs are the creation of John Norman. I am just trying to understand if the people that have chose to adopt them really believe in them or are they just nothin more than all sizzle and no steak. To be loudly proclaimed but in reality mean absolutely nothing.

Mal,

The Great Earthly Ambassador to Gor Lord Domiguy

< Message edited by domiguy -- 2/9/2010 8:40:00 PM >

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 8:38:34 PM

Trevelyan

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Girl,

You miss my point entirely.

I am not arguing a point of law.

Trevelyan

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 8:50:06 PM

Malkinius

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{fast reply}

Tal and greetings all....

Actually, Orion and Domiguy do share a Home Stone in that they are part of the same country and world and it is not legal in this country to go to some other country and steal. Also, stealing things someone has illegally is still theft under at least US law. Whether or not it is honorable to steal from a specific individual is up to a specific person's honor and ethical systems. Just about everything else that has been said on the subject so is just playing with fantasy, not reality.

Be well all....

Malkinius

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 9:11:54 PM

Qorvas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

In the Plains Indian Culture theft of a horse gained you a lot of honor. In the surrounding white communities of that time, it was a hanging offense.

If someone is a "stranger" to me, then I will conquer what I desire. They will either be strong enough to defend what is theirs, or I will be strong enough to seize what I wish. If someone is not a stranger, then I view protection of what is theirs as part of my duty to them as a friend, neighbor, etc. There is no conflict in this application, it is circumstance that dictates many things in nature and in society.

Live well,
Orion

Orion;

Very well said indeed. That pretty much nails down how I see it too.

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 9:12:36 PM

OrionTheWolf

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~FR~

Funny how people see the word "conquer", "seize", and "defend". Possessions are not just material things, and is why the word ownership can be used in different ways. The word stranger also has a specific meaning to Goreans, so I can see Domi missing it. There are laws that cover material possesions, and I abide by those laws. or accept the consequences the US legal system provides. There are no laws covering other possesions, and those I will mitigate as circumstance and my code are applied. There are also other avenues to "conquer" another, including the legal and political systems, not to mention just gain friends in a community and applying social pressures. There is a huge spectrum of things that can be done, and Domi's rather narrow view shows a lock of imagination, and experience in things that can and cannot be done.

My slave now was once owned by a man, and I took her.

BTW, thanks Tim, you are correct that the more powerful the enemy the more honor the theft of a horse brings. Actually you would gain more honor from the theft, than from vanquishing them.

Live well,
Orion

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 9:28:00 PM

AnnaOfAramis

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Greetings Free and owned,

This girl has been thinking about this all day as she pops in and out seeing what new has been written over the course of the day. It seems to her that there are two aspects to the issue. One is what can be done on Earth, and the other is what is consistent with the books.

In the books, generally, the collar was respected- within one's city- slaves could walk about the city and run errands and their owners did not seem to be overly concerned with their being stolen, or else presumably they wouldn't have sent them. Interestingly, the Free Women, on the other hand, needed a guard because otherwise there was the potential for her being taken and enslaved, since she had no collar. Either it seems could be up for grabs by a stranger to the city (perhaps this is one reason strangers tended to be impaled as a greeting

).

One thing the books question is the way that we have been shaped by our culture over thousands of years and have changed from what we are at an instinctual level. It questions some of the things we have come to accept without question and asks us to re-evaluate what it means to be human. In the animal kingdom, it is quite normal and natural for the males to battle one another over the acquisition of a female. In the books, it was perfectly within honor for a warrior to take a slave of another city- usually by slaying the owner in battle or swooping down on a city on a tarn. Within the Wagon Peoples too it seems that if one "held earth" with them then they would fight to the death to protect you and your property, but if a stranger approached, then more than likely he would have been run through with a spear and the property appropriated. Most likely that would have been deemed quite meritorious and perhaps have even led to a new scar or something.

Whether something is honorable depends only on the man himself and what his codes are- more than likely in the books this is also shaped by caste. If he acts consistently with his codes, then he is being honorable, but if he disregards his own codes whenever they become inconvenient, knowing that what he is doing is wrong, and does it anyway... well that seems to this girl like it would be dishonourable.

What someone finds honourable or not depends on what they are using to measure it by. One can ask if a python or a polar bear is bigger and the answer will change depending on whether you are measuring by length, mass, or height. All answers are correct, but they depend on perspective. To some, taking a girl is stealing and is wrong, to others it is part of the order of nature and natural dominance, to some it depends on the situation- perhaps there is a woman who is in an abusive relationship... some may think it more honorable to remove her from the situation... others may think it dishonourable to interfere with another man's wife. In the end, an honourable man does what seems best to him according to his own beliefs and heart.

As to the female, well, if she is a slave, she cannot be held to the standards of honour of Free people, because she obeys an external force rather than an internal one. Here, where slavery is not enforced by law as it is in the books, slavery is based on internal enslavement and she is held by mastery not by law. As a slave, she does not make her own choices but follows external directives. She does not stay because she "chooses to be loyal", she stays because she is mastered. If someone is successful here in stealing a slave, then the mastery over her was weakened to an extent as to enable her to be able to choose to leave.

Just a few cents at the end of the day...

Well wishes,
anna

< Message edited by AnnaOfAramis -- 2/9/2010 9:35:41 PM >

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 9:31:42 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

Funny how people see the word "conquer", "seize", and "defend". Possessions are not just material things, and is why the word ownership can be used in different ways. The word stranger also has a specific meaning to Goreans, so I can see Domi missing it. There are laws that cover material possesions, and I abide by those laws. or accept the consequences the US legal system provides. There are no laws covering other possesions, and those I will mitigate as circumstance and my code are applied. There are also other avenues to "conquer" another, including the legal and political systems, not to mention just gain friends in a community and applying social pressures. There is a huge spectrum of things that can be done, and Domi's rather narrow view shows a lock of imagination, and experience in things that can and cannot be done.

My slave now was once owned by a man, and I took her.

BTW, thanks Tim, you are correct that the more powerful the enemy the more honor the theft of a horse brings. Actually you would gain more honor from the theft, than from vanquishing them.

Live well,
Orion

This post sheds a great deal more light on your beliefs than what you originally posted. What you originally posted was very direct and it would have been a huge stretch to see how it would incorporate utilizing the legal system or political measures to achieve your desired results.

It really suggests that Goreans are no different in their beliefs and more importantly in their practices than anyone else that works legally within the system.

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 9:44:57 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Sheds more light? You mean that you are not assuming as much as you did before?

Stick to the humor and flames Domi, you are much better at that, than you are at theoretical debates about philosophy, ethics or morality.

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