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RE: Honor or No Honor?


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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 11:07:25 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wildnbeautiful

my Master says people who TRY to steal anothers collered girl has no honor/respect for others.. what is your thoughts?


i tend to agree with Him...


His nyla


yeah but were not gorean.. i am M/S slave


edited>>


IMO it would depend on the situation, the motivation, and the individual's code of honor.

To give a less vague answer - if a man helps a slave to leave a master who beats her near-death on a regular basis, then takes her as his so she won't have such a brutal shock going back to self-reliance, I'd say he has plenty of honor, and would be admirable in my eyes.

Obviously that's an extreme, but your question is vague enough that I can't give a "yes" or "no" answer.

Also I agree with what others have said about how if a girl is able to leave a man for another, she never fully belonged to the first.

I wish you well,
Bella

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you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/9/2010 11:44:44 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Sheds more light? You mean that you are not assuming as much as you did before?

Stick to the humor and flames Domi, you are much better at that, than you are at theoretical debates about philosophy, ethics or morality.


I guess that when reading this below..YOUR WORDS,  That I was to make the leap that you were discussing political and legal means to acquire another possessions?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

If someone is a "stranger" to me, then I will conquer what I desire. They will either be strong enough to defend what is theirs, or I will be strong enough to seize what I wish. If someone is not a stranger, then I view protection of what is theirs as part of my duty to them as a friend, neighbor, etc. There is no conflict in this application, it is circumstance that dictates many things in nature and in society.

Live well,
Orion


You had to amend your original statement to avoid getting caught in the deception of what you originally posted.

And you amended it to a rather vast scope.Instead of taking the horse you will now use political connections.  Instead of directly confronting your enemies or adversaries you will now choose to hide behind lawyers.

Is this the Gorean  way?  Is this what mirrors what all Goreans believe?

You might want to try your hand at flames and humor...Cause you sure are not very impressive when it comes to an actual debate.

If this were a judged debate you would in be some fairly deep shit right now.

Instead of dancing around the fire like some kajira or slave girl how about you address the points.

As you can see, I can hurl insults with the best of you Goreans.  Are you the best they have to offer?

You made an original statement defend it.






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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 12:20:18 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

She does not stay because she "chooses to be loyal", she stays because she is mastered. If someone is successful here in stealing a slave, then the mastery over her was weakened to an extent as to enable her to be able to choose to leave.


To this I agree completely anna. The loyalty or devotion stemming from the mastering as the external force is quite different from the loyalty or devotion occurring from external forces outside that ownership..such as peer, religious, social pressures.

Another good point you mentioned is the actual aspect of "her to be able to choose to leave". If she is at that point for whatever reason..she is now exerting self determination and putting herself out there to be taken or in hopes of. In my eyes at that point the slave has left the building, and to continue to stay and pretend to be a slave and keep a safe ground while she is disloyal by deceit on many fronts very much now applies to her.

Some one posted awhile back something to the effect about a knight in shining armor coming to rescue a poor slave from her owner, and free her from this awfulness, and in the end the slave either off'd the knight or gave the weapon to the owner to off the knight. I know the horribly dissed how it was actually written but the jest is there, and has great meaning which I find very applicable to this line of discussion.

starshine


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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 2:55:01 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Trevelyn,

So if I understand you right then you wouldn’t steal from another American, but you would from me for example as I am English? If that’s the case then what about honour or morals?

I see Gor slightly differently to you it seems, I see the books partially as parables of a sort, and with every parable you need to have the good guy and the bad guy to give balance and an example of what not to do as well as what is the morally right thing to do, for example I don’t know anyone who thinks that the parable of the good Samaritan means if you see someone hurt on the ground you should walk past like the first two men did, although many will do that anyway.

If we take an example from the books on theft, a small parable within the larger book it becomes quite clear to me anyway on Normans views on theft due to the “I am stronger so I can take what I like” debate.

In Marauders Tarl comes across a duel, its openly acknowledged that these duels are used by the unscrupulous to gain what isn’t theirs, but it is the law and custom so most just shrug and accept it. In this case a large champion was challenging a youngster of 16 for his sister, Tarl didn’t like the idea so fought for the lad and won and the challenger learned a lesson. What I wrote was a very simplistic cut down version of what happened but the essence is a larger man decided to bully and take by force what he didn’t own from a young lad. But Tarl is there as a guide to what is right and what is wrong, he is not perfect, he is an unreliable narrator and so prone to all the self deceptions and lies we tell ourselves but it is because of that because he is “everyman” that we can understand him and know that he is trying to do his best. He is an outsider looking in and so local laws and customs mean nothing to him, all that matter is his own moral code.

This is the essence of Gor, it is not saying I am a Gorean and stronger than you so bow down and let me piss all over you, because that shows neither respect for yourself or others. It is looking at the laws and customs and saying is this right? Is this moral? Can I stand back and let this happen when I have the ability to stop it.

Is your personal honour the sort of honour that allows you to steal from others because they are not American? Is it the sort of honour that would let you stand back and watch another steal and do nothing when you could prevent it easily? Does your moral code really believe in theft is ok, because mine certainly doesn’t, I believe in theft only when there is no other choice.

Cheryl


< Message edited by Cherylmazana -- 2/10/2010 2:56:33 AM >

(in reply to starshineowned)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 4:15:46 AM   
estah


Posts: 491
Joined: 5/2/2009
Status: offline 		Greetings, back in 2007 wildnbeautiful said she and her child (singular) moved in with her Master after moving over 3000 miles to be with him, she then complained how he wanted to marry her and adapt her child and at the same time was secretly searching for another slave. She also mentioned having an 18 year old who has a daughter and a 16 year old who was raped in Marche of last year....She has many interesting stories and if you read them, that just do not add up.

`(well as i have stated in other thread.. I SHOULD OF RAN AND NEVER LOOKED BACK! just as yall said.. He was no Master .. He was obsessed with my 16 yr old daughter so the police told me..i should of saw the signs...and LISTENED to you guys...He now sits in prison for 10 yrs and life probation for hurting my child badly...physically ..emotionally..and i didnt look for another but found the One who IS a Master and not a wannabe..He is awsome in everyway..and Has stuck by me thru all of what happenedand has happened..oddly enuff i met Him on SL and have ended my search for as long as He will have me...) quoted from http://www.collarchat.com/m_1415781/mpage_2/key_wildnbeautiful/tm.htm#1424088

yes i do He is happily Married to a awsome woman who happens to be my Mistress and he has 3 YOUNG kids and i have been living with him now may be a year so now 3 yrs together and my kids live on there own now they have grown and have kids..so yes to your questions

no He has never been in trouble or prison lol He works for the state helping prisoners start life over lol  (quoted from http://www.collarchat.com/m_1415781/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm#3055867)

and your problem is? so what hes married..ever hear of poly??? -rolls eyes- and yes my child is happy WE moved on -duh- so dont comment on stuff you have no clue about ok im done with you  (this barely a year after her child was raped???? - quoted from Need Advice Please thread)....

While doing all her rubbish she also offered information about red flags...this is after knowing a man for 3 months (no offline contact) and then moving with a child to live with him and who later supposedly raped the girl....a year has not passed and she has moved in with the next Master....all her children living on their own and with children of their own, yet her raped 16 year old is happy to find herself living with her mother in a poly situation....damn reads like a dime novel.

Her stories jump from one side to another and now she has also been Gorean. There is great information in this thread, but the OP is just Not worth the time of day.

verity





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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 4:58:20 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7229
Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

You had to amend your original statement to avoid getting caught in the deception of what you originally posted.



There was no change to my original statement, if you read closely. You decided to assume I had a narrow statement, when in fact it was very broad. You chose to ignore significant words used, or distort their meaning, that is the only deceptive part I see.

quote:


And you amended it to a rather vast scope.Instead of taking the horse you will now use political connections.  Instead of directly confronting your enemies or adversaries you will now choose to hide behind lawyers.


Again you assume much, and define it narrowly. If in the situation of the Plains Indian culture, I would take the horse. I use what fits the situation. Those that confine themselves, are self imprisoned.

quote:


Is this the Gorean  way?  Is this what mirrors what all Goreans believe?


It is my way, and I identify as Gorean, so it is at least one "Gorean way", and it is not contrary to the morality and philosphy prescribed in the series. Whether this mirrors what all Goreans believe is not really much of a question, as most Goreans are very individualistic.

quote:


You made an original statement defend it.


My words stand on their own. As I see it, those it was meant for actually understood what I was saying. There is no defense needed, when the attack has no substance.

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 4:59:34 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 1526
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		Ya know, Verity...some people are just hungry for attention.  Bad attention will do just as well as good attention when they can't figure out how to get good attention.  It's up to the people she's telling it all to to handle it (or not) the way it should be.  Sometimes you even have to treat adults as children when they start acting like it.

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 7:15:51 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

You had to amend your original statement to avoid getting caught in the deception of what you originally posted.



There was no change to my original statement, if you read closely. You decided to assume I had a narrow statement, when in fact it was very broad. You chose to ignore significant words used, or distort their meaning, that is the only deceptive part I see.

quote:


And you amended it to a rather vast scope.Instead of taking the horse you will now use political connections.  Instead of directly confronting your enemies or adversaries you will now choose to hide behind lawyers.


Again you assume much, and define it narrowly. If in the situation of the Plains Indian culture, I would take the horse. I use what fits the situation. Those that confine themselves, are self imprisoned.

quote:


Is this the Gorean  way?  Is this what mirrors what all Goreans believe?


It is my way, and I identify as Gorean, so it is at least one "Gorean way", and it is not contrary to the morality and philosphy prescribed in the series. Whether this mirrors what all Goreans believe is not really much of a question, as most Goreans are very individualistic.

quote:


You made an original statement defend it.


My words stand on their own. As I see it, those it was meant for actually understood what I was saying. There is no defense needed, when the attack has no substance.


In other words, when speaking with Orion his words mean little. I can only surmise the definition of the word debate has an entirely different meaning on Gor than it does here on Earth.  On Gor it must mean that my statements and words shall be allowed to construe to anything I desire as long as they provide me with enough wiggle room to be able to avoid confrontation and or defend a belief.

Well played Gorean.  I actually expected much less.


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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 9:25:19 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7229
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		If you read little into them, then they would mean little. Gee, you seem to be understanding better now. Maybe if you stop assuming things, you may be able to actually see better.

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Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 9:56:19 AM   
MAWarGod


Posts: 174
Joined: 1/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:



In other words, when speaking with Orion his words mean little. I can only surmise the definition of the word debate has an entirely different meaning on Gor than it does here on Earth. On Gor it must mean that my statements and words shall be allowed to construe to anything I desire as long as they provide me with enough wiggle room to be able to avoid confrontation and or defend a belief.

Well played Gorean. I actually expected much less.



greetings domiguy

if one is Gorean or applies the gorean Ideals to their life the word debate does have more of meaning than just the normal meaning.. Now if your intent is to debate with those who apply or subscribe to the ethic’s of Gor. I would clearly advise you to come more enlighten to our ways, Our customs.. before belittling things you clearly do not understand..


I can help to think of a post I read by xBullx here.. Where He compared "honor" to a garage door lock.. That lock keeps out the “honest man” if the man is a thief He will find away around it. The lock is there just as Honor or the codes are.. its either a symbol to you or not. Its all in your ethic’s and integrity.. I like the way ZeIda took the time to interpret Orion”s post to you in the other thread.. So maybe you can read over it a few times and come up with what the statements mean to you and your ethic’s and integrity.. I wish you well..

Robert

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 10:30:11 AM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 508
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings Free and owned,

On the flip side of the stronger-man-winning-the-loot theory, the books say this about theft. It seems that challenging a man's claim to property is accepted, but theft isn't? When tarnsmen took slaves from a city, was that considered theft or was it something else? Perhaps it begs the question of what is considered theft?

"His right ear had been notched, doubtless in some accident. Such notching, I knew, is usually done to the ears of thieves; a second offense is normally punished by the loss of the right hand; a third offense by the removal of the left hand and both feet. There are few thieves, incidentally, on Gor. I have heard, though, that there is a Caste of Thieves in Port Kar, a strong caste which naturally protects its members from such indignities as ear notching." ~Nomads

Well wishes,
anna


_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 11:44:35 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		There was also raiding in Gor - taking of FW and slaves a like, so i don't think Goreans associated the concept of stealing the same as our society does.

So i guess people can see this concept to be -- raiding instead of stealing.  If the Man wants her back, well he will have to pay the cost whatever that is.  I believe the taking of a woman even if we accomplish same through different means than those on Gor did -- amounts to the same concept.   If a Man is strong enough he keeps what is his.  If he is not or chooses not to keep what is his, then he doesn't.

angel

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 11:47:38 AM   
Koa


Posts: 272
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline 		A tarnsman taking a woman by lets say swooping down and picking her off of one of the high bridges is still theft by definition. But if it was during a battle it could also be seen as spoils of war. Theft is and always will be "The felonious taking (an unlawful taking (as by burglary) of property) and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it." Even if it is durring war or any other circumstance.

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...but to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought.
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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 1:12:31 PM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 508
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

A tarnsman taking a woman by lets say swooping down and picking her off of one of the high bridges is still theft by definition. But if it was during a battle it could also be seen as spoils of war. Theft is and always will be "The felonious taking (an unlawful taking (as by burglary) of property) and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it." Even if it is durring war or any other circumstance.


Greetings Master,

This is what this girl is confused about... because the one quote says there were few thieves and that they had their ears notched and hands and feet cut off... yet the books mentioned tarnsmen swooping down in several places and yet one doesn't hear of tarnsmen with notched ears or missing appendages (which would make it considerably difficult to fly )... so one wonders if there is some difference?

Well wishes,
anna

_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 2:13:55 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1710
Status: offline 		Hello anna,

I have a question for you, why is it you only use 3rd person in the Gorean Lifestyle section?  I have read other posts of yours in other sections, and you do not use 3rd there, so what is the difference here?   

Take care,

Elizabeth

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 5:25:50 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Mistress Cherylmazana

that post about marauders was amazing

they should add that to the faq

thanks and well wishes
kisshou

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 5:34:03 PM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 508
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Hello anna,

I have a question for you, why is it you only use 3rd person in the Gorean Lifestyle section? I have read other posts of yours in other sections, and you do not use 3rd there, so what is the difference here?

Take care,

Elizabet


Greetings Mistress,

That is a fair question and this girl has often thought it must seem odd! Also she uses first person in the Gorean Forum with slaves. It is simple really- it comes down to her Master's rules. Normally she is allowed first person except in what Master considers a "formal" situation (or of course whenever he damn feels like it, lol). Speaking to Gorean Free is a formal situation- either online or off, so this girl uses third person unless that Free person tells her they prefer otherwise. She hopes this clears things up

Well wishes,
anna

_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 6:08:10 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1710
Status: offline 		Hello anna,

Ok, so on the "other" side so as to speak, how do you know if someone you are conversing with is not Gorean?  And you do realize Goreans read other sections yes?  I have often been amazed at how some of the so called Gorean slaves handle themselves outside of the Gorean section.   What little respect they display, yet...here, are all sooo,  at least in their opinion, slave like.   I am not saying your posts are like that, but there are some that are.    I don't get it.  But of course the usual pat answer is...."this is how my Master" wants/lets me.  In that you didn't disappoint.  That's said a lot on these boards.  ;)

Oh and yes, I should thank you for saying I asked a "fair" question.  ~chuckles~

Take care,

Elizabeth

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 6:32:18 PM   
MasterAramis


Posts: 279
Joined: 7/29/2008
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

Ok, so on the "other" side so as to speak, how do you know if someone you are conversing with is not Gorean?


Here is my spin,

Because she does her homework. She has a pretty good idea of who his or who isn't. Most Goreans are not shy about putting it on their profile, somewhere. In yours it's the third one down. As it relates to it being my request, she is right. I have a great deal of respect for many of those who claim to be Gorean. In the few years she has been posting, I can honestly say she has never received the following from Gorean men:

"Hi
Would you be interested in a roleplay session where you play a Grand Dame who gets pies in the face ala the 3 stooges
Pie--" I shook my head on this email she received just today. I would venture to guess he is NOT Gorean.

Further if a Gorean man had ever an issue with her, how she behaved, he would take it up with me directly. There is something to be said about that. So I do require a little more formality here out of respect for those that hold to a higher standard.

Lastly, while her manner may be formal here, she has never to my knowledge been rude to anyone on either side and has always given quarter to all who are Free, Gorean or otherwise. So her behavior is consistent.

If you have further questions regarding her behavior, please feel free to contact me directly so as not to hijack a thread.

Aramis Duval






< Message edited by MasterAramis -- 2/10/2010 6:40:48 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 7:08:41 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2104
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
There was also raiding in Gor - taking of FW and slaves a like, so i don't think Goreans associated the concept of stealing the same as our society does.


Correct, they didn't. The exchange between Domi and Orion illustrates the difficulty of lifting Gorean thought from the books and trying to fashion it into a coherent moral philosphy.

Gorean thought as expressed in the books resembles mostly the moral code practiced by most of the clannish tribal cultures of the world, like some of the Arabic people of Afghanistan or Pakistan, or the Plains Indians.
Mostly, that you are boound by all sorts of codes of honor within your clan, but for those outside it, there is almost nothing that is forbidden.

So like the Plains Indians, stealing, raping, killing people of other tribes is perfectly acceptable, honorable even. Which sounds pretty cool, if you are a Plains Indian, or American with the Manifest Destiny mindset- (those Indians weren't using that land anyway! Its ours to take!)

Of course, what this also means is that in much of the Arab world, 9-11 was perfectly acceptable. It was a brilliant surprise attack on a hated foe, a foe not of their clan or religion.

Which is why I can't really see the wisdom of simply treating the novels like a Bible; as I said before, you could just as easily see them as a cautionary tale (Don't behave like these fucked up people!)

Gor actually has much more application to the original question- Is it ok to steal another man's woman?
Because all IS fair in love and war. Seducing another man's woman can be seen as the expression of the primitive animal instinct, and saying that if he can't keep her from straying, then he deserves to lose her actually resonates in most people, since we recognize that there is inside us an animal spirit, a violent, cruel and unfair aspect of sex and eros.

But extrapolating that into a moral vision that would say, govern international relations might be a stretch, leading to all sorts of things we'd rather avoid.

(in reply to barelynangel)
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