Collarchat.com

Create a
Free Account		 As the Collar Turns:
 Collarchat.com - BDSM Forum

Home  Login  Search 
Espanol  Deutsch  Francais  Italiano  Portugues 

RE: Honor or No Honor?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: Honor or No Honor? Page: <<   < prev  2 3 4 [5] 6   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 7:43:29 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

clannish tribal cultures of the world, like some of the Arabic people of Afghanistan or Pakistan, or the Plains Indians.



Greetings AnimusRex,

Also women in these cultures have little rights, are chattel... Although some women get some power, most never do...

Although Plains Indian women did have rights...because while they were tribal, they were also hunters, not pastoralists... pastoralist societies, especially the nomadic variety, women are often treated very low. In hunter/gatherer societies there is more egalitarianism between genders...

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 2/10/2010 7:44:14 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 8:02:19 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7228
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings AnimusRex,

My feelings on these things were the same before I ever read a Gor book. Sorry but I pretty much feel that the world may actually be better off if we were a little more clanish, and less of the world organizations in charge of things. I sometimes wonder if there was a place called Gor, and someone wrote about a place called Earth, if some of the message might be "Don't behave like these fucked up people.".

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/10/2010 8:29:02 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2104
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		Orion-

My view is that Gor is best, most accurate and instructive when describing the relationship between the sexes.

Consider the following statement: "If I see a woman I want, by God, I will just grab her by the hair bend her over and take her!"

Within certain sane and legal parameters, a whole lotta women here would find that statement to be thrilling, a bold expression of the masculine ethos, something they find admirable and honorable.

Now this: "If I see a car I want, by God, I will just grab grab it and take it!"

Um, not so much wetness between the thighs here. Not many would see the honor in it.

Is there a disconnect here, in seeing one as good and the other as bad?

Not in my view. Most of us accept and understand that love and sex has a component to it that is violent, dark, and beyond the reach of polite rules and norms. Its not a coincidence that Gor is connected to BDSM (even if the connection is mutually detested). We enjoy tapping into that darkness, that wild cruelty during our erotic moments, and in our relationship with the other sex.

In business and politics? Hmm, I don't think so. I don't think I could embrace the same attitude towards other countries that I take towards women, particularly my woman. Raping and pillaging a smaller weaker country wouldn't strike me as honorable, just cowardly and depraved.

Thats the paradox I referenced in my other thread- that we have this deep seated need for conquest and pillage and cruelty, yet if we let that become the overriding aspect to our behaviro, it leads to madness and destruction.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/11/2010 4:47:05 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline
quote:

Further if a Gorean man had ever an issue with her, how she behaved, he would take it up with me directly. There is something to be said about that. So I do require a little more formality here out of respect for those that hold to a higher standard.


Actually you don't appear to know Goreans as well as you believe you do. Goreans do CORRECT A SLAVE OR QUESTION A SLAVE publically simply because she is a slave. They have no qualms about this. They deal with the issue at hand and move on. I am not sure what Goreans you know who would bypass correcting or questioning a slave publically and instead go to her Master. It doesn't matter whose slave she is -- she is simply a slave to them. Who her owner is doesn't mean they won't treat her like a slave publically. I think you are confusing Goreans with BDSM'ers who don't think its correct to treat slaves as slaves publically.


angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 2/11/2010 4:50:02 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/11/2010 5:22:33 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 16268
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: online 		Hello Animus Rex,

While this statement of yours may be correct when a woman has at least in her heart decided she also wants the man, generally speaking women do not exactly like the idea of being raped and then kidnapped.

Best,
sunshine

quote:

Consider the following statement: "If I see a woman I want, by God, I will just grab her by the hair bend her over and take her!"

Within certain sane and legal parameters, a whole lotta women here would find that statement to be thrilling, a bold expression of the masculine ethos, something they find admirable and honorable.


_____________________________

¿me preguntas por que compro arroz y flores? compro arroz para vivir y flores para tener algo por lo que vivir.
~Confucio
the most amazing wonderful glorious food I have - is anything as long as I'm with a friend.
~me

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/11/2010 7:28:20 AM   
MasterAramis


Posts: 279
Joined: 7/29/2008
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

Actually you don't appear to know Goreans as well as you believe you do


Please don't make assumptions. If you are basing that on this post, you are reading more into it than is there so perhaps a clarification is in order. I didn't say that Goreans wouldn't correct her. One doesn't have to go far to see that is case. God if you have been lurking these boards for any length of time or reading the books, that is something very visible. Just look at many recent postings that have transpired over the last month or so. Actually, it is one area of the Gorean philosophy that I truly relish.

My post alluded to the fact that it probably would be brought to my attention and pretty quickly from what I have seen and read. While Goreans have no problem in correcting a slave, they also have no problem in telling owners to better control their property, or that their property is out of hand. Again, another admirable quality which was the actual focus my post made note of.

Second, I didn't take ElizabethAnne's post to be a correction, I took it as questioning something that she does and I am the authority on that subject so I chimed in. My slave is not always made aware of the rational behind my requests nor should she, but seeing as the question came from what I believe is a Free Woman, I opted to share some of my thoughts.

Last but not least, I asked the poster to direct any further comments to me directly, as this thread is not about anna's methodology that I dictate, it is about Honor or No Honor? and I didn't wish to circumvent or hijack the post just because one needed clarification on the subject. A matter I would have been more than happy to discuss off post with anyone.

So I hope this clears the air.

One more point, where in the BDSM handbook does it say that BDSM'ers don't treat slaves as slaves publicly? I didn't realize you were also an authority on the many facets and factions of that community. I think you are using broad brush strokes to describe a vast amount of people and practices with countless interpretations. If memory serves me correctly, I don't recall that you have much in the way of actually hands on BDSM experience so how are drawing that comparison? I hope your opinion is not based on what you have read here on these forums. But again that is probably better left for another time and a different forum.



< Message edited by MasterAramis -- 2/11/2010 8:28:03 AM >

_____________________________

"He who would be a man must be a master. He who surrenders his mastery surrenders his manhood." - Players of Gor

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/11/2010 3:17:36 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		Hi Cheryl,

You are partially right. I see the Gor books very differently than you do.

I do not share your opinion that the books are parables of a sort. I see them as an extended series of novels which discuss at length John Norman's basic thesis; using primarily exposition, plot and characterization to make and prove the validity of the thesis. In other words I see them as a much more sophisticated form of literature than a series of parables to illustrate simple points of right and wrong.

As I have said many times before in this forum, I feel that John Norman's basic thesis in the Gor novels is "Many people in modern-day North America are unhappy, unhealthy and unfulfilled because modern-day North American culture/civilization is based on ideas that are not in line with the way that evolution has shaped human beings to be. It is possible to create a culture/civilization that is more in line with the way that human nature, and in that culture/civilization people would be happier, healthier and more fulfilled."

Every word of the 28 novels supports this thesis by explaining what Norman feels are correct ideas about human nature; illustrating those ideas through exposition, plot and characterization; and perhaps proving the validity of the thesis.

The first of these ideas that Norman talks about in the books are symbolized by the Home Stone. Norman feels that because of the way we have evolved, human beings are happier, healthier and more fulfilled when they have a "territory" in which they are "sovereign." That idea is symbolized in a Gorean's personal Home Stone. Additionally, he feels that humans are happiest, healthiest and most fulfilled when they are allegiant to a community. In Gorean culture/civilization, that community is symbolized by the Home Stone of the village or city, and Goreans swear an oath of allegiance when they reach the age of majority. If they refuse to swear the oath, they may be expelled from the community.

Some of the other key ideas which Norman feels are in line with human nature are identification with and pride in one's work, and striving to do it excellently and ethically (the idea behind Caste), the Order of Nature, and the Gorean Morality (expressed at length in the first chapter of Marauders.)

Here is a key point which I don't think you understand: these ideas/values which Norman's fictional Goreans live by are very different from those held by modern-day North Americans (and Britons).

For example, morals mean ideas about what is right, and what is wrong. Cheryl, you hold certain ideas about what is right and what is wrong because you live in the judeo/christian inspired culture of modern-day Great Britain. Those ideas may or may not be correct; they are just the currently held ideas. Do you get that? And Norman's key point is that many of the ideas you hold are not in line with human nature and are therefore not correct.

Regarding your example from Marauders - I remember it. I think you are mis-interpreting what Norman is saying. In my opinion, he is illustrating one of the tenets of the Gorean Morality, namely "Do what you will, the swords of others will set your limits." Tarl stepped in because he felt like it.

Let's test your parable theory with some other examples from Marauders.

We meet Ivar Forkbeard when he and his men use deception to raid the temple in Kassau, kill many of the unarmed citizens, steal the valuables of the temple, and take many of the young women as slaves. In that passage, Cheryl, who is the good guy and who is the bad guy? What morally right thing is illustrated there?

Similarly, later in the book Tarl and Ivar Forkbeard kidnap Hilda, daughter of Thorgard of Scagnar, torture her until she heels Forkbeard, and if I remember correctly she is eventually enslaved. Again, Cheryl, who is the good guy and who is the bad guy? What morally right thing is illustrated there?

I am looking forward to reading your answers.

Trevelyan

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/12/2010 2:50:46 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Trevelyan,

I agree with most of what you said, the books are more than just a series of parables, there is sarcasm, satire, a lot of humour many, many layers and a great deal of fantasy mixed up in-between it’s like Shrek and the way he sees himself an onion with many layers and it is always a mistake to believe that one thing is simply what it appears to be on the first reading.

John Norman himself assures us that his books are not children’s books, not because of the adult content of sex, but because these books were written for adult minds with the ability to see these layers, it’s like a children’s pantomime where the children laugh at the obvious and the adults at the sly humour and double entendres hidden underneath the obvious. Or a school child reading Macbeth and a scholar of old English reading the same and seeing the bawdy jokes, the average person would miss.

Many of his nuances I miss because I do not read Latin and apparently many of the names can be translated into bad puns in Latin I have been assured by those with knowledge and understanding of Latin. The books are filled with classical themes and references, they use classical literary devices, and echo over and over the same themes, a problem with all teachers who tend to get in the habit of repeating themselves so they can beat rudimentary knowledge into student heads. Or maybe it’s just that he found a theme he liked to use and it worked, who can tell.

I also agree that Norman wants us to look at our own culture and see that it’s not always the right one, but Gor isn’t always right either, it was never designed to always be right. As Tarl said elsewhere paraphrasing “Earth is too soft and Gor is too hard”.

So to answer your questions, in my opinion the first part is simply the author setting the base knowledge of the culture Tarl is going to visit, and from the first it’s obvious we know they are Vikings and so their culture will loosely be based upon the Viking culture. This is confirmed by the looting, the disrespect show to another’s Gods, and the classic Viking raid, once we read this we know where we stand in the culture and what Tarl will be facing. It also has another aspect to it, men want to be like those daring Vikings, they want to imagine themselves a Jarl who can take what he wants by the strength of arms, and the women secretly thrill and fantasize about the idea of being kidnapped and taken away by a strong man who will conquer them completely. We are drawn into the story because it’s an adventure, an escape from our lives and for a while we can forget the world and the knowledge that here men can’t take what they want, and woman kidnapped and sold into slavery will be traumatized and terrified, unlikely to enjoy the experience.

The second part is a very classic literary theme, the redemption plot, we take the spoilt pampered girl who has never thought about anyone but herself in her life and strip away her home, her power, her pride, her dignity, her honour, her clothes, in fact anything that she once had and reduce her to nothing. When she can go no further down she then has the choice to remain in the gutter or to look at herself clearly and rebuild who she is with no rose coloured glasses coming finally to a greater understanding of herself. This theme is repeated over and over as a sub plot in the books, usually with various women but also it has been used on Tarl as well when he was with the Rencers.

This theme occurs regularly in all types of fiction especially in the old fairy tales as often they were there to teach lessons along with the story. For example be nice to people or else you will upset a wizard and will remain a beast for hundreds of years until you grow nice enough for a woman to love you and break the spell. Often the original of those fairy tales were much more horrific than anything Disney would allow to be shown under their name, fairies never used to be nice once upon a time.

In this case it’s be nice or the bad men will enslave you and whip you until you grow nice enough to find love and/or are released to be free again as a much humbler, kinder person who knows they are not the center of the universe.

Cheryl






< Message edited by Cherylmazana -- 2/12/2010 2:58:06 AM >

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/13/2010 3:08:48 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		Hi Cheryl,

Thank you for your reply.

We continue to disagree.

I stand by what I have said before. I feel that it is a generally correct interpretation of the books.

I think that the main cause of our disagreement is that Norman's thesis and his description of a culture that is more in line with human nature is repugnant to you. Rather than saying "I see what Norman is saying, but I disagree" you would rather say "no, that can't be what he means - it must be a double entendre, or sarcasm or a hidden meaning in Latin."

And so, instead you interpret them as a series of parables which you interpret to illustrate what you feel to be morally correct action.

You say "woman kidnapped and sold into slavery will be traumatized and terrified, unlikely to enjoy the experience." Do you get it that Norman says something very different, over and over and over again? He says "women find fulfillment in submission to men." You may disagree with the truthfullness of Norman's statement, but you cannot rationally disagree that it is what he says.

In my opinion, a Gorean is someone who holds the same values and beliefs as the fictional Goreans in the books, and then lives in accordance with them here on Earth. The manifestation may be somewhat different here, for example a Gorean man who happens to be an American citizen will not kidnap some woman off the street and enslave her. Rather he will go someplace like CollarMe and find a woman who has some level of agreement with the statement "women find fulfillment in submission to men" and enter into a consensual enslavement.

Goreans hold very different values and beliefs about what constitutes morally correct action from what most modern-day North Americans and Europeans do.

Compare your earlier comments about the parable of the Good Samaritan with this passage from OUTLAW:
"At such a time a man may not be spoken to, for according to the Gorean way of thinking pity humiliates both he who pities and he who is pitied. According to the Gorean way, one may love but one may not pity. So I moved on."

Goreans have a very different opinion of the morally right thing to do.

Trevelyan

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/13/2010 8:24:56 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Trevelyan,


John Norman wrote a factual book called Imaginative sex in part of which he described how people can enhance their lives by fantasizing that they are in a Master slave relationship. And let’s be factual here, all we can do is have a fantasy Master slave relationship anyway as there is no way we can have a legal M/s relationship, consensual slavery is an oxymoron any way you look at it.

He was not advocating that men go out and take what they want, raping and stealing anything they wish, if you believe that the majority of women find fulfillment in that then I should start a thread to ask how many women here have been raped and how it made them feel, I am pretty sure that fulfillment and happiness wasn’t two of the prevailing emotions.

However I do not believe I have ever stated that women do not find fulfillment in submitting to men, if I didn’t believe that for the majority of people their relationships are enhanced when the woman is in a relationship where the man is the more dominant partner I wouldn’t consider myself a Gorean. I don’t believe we disagree on that aspect. Its more the other aspects of the books, such as a Gorean man can take anything he wants if he is strong enough and I can steal from you if you can’t stop me I have issues with. Because frankly that sounds pretty much like the I am a Gorean hear me roar rubbish, which usually means that the man in question is afraid that he is not appearing tough enough and so thumps his chest Tarzan fashion. What is interesting is how Norman treats male braggarts in his books, but that’s another discussion.

As for the good Samaritan comment, I think you need to read my words more clearly as I used it only as an example to say that the moral of that story is not to walk away like the first two men did, whether or not that parable is in accord with Gorean thinking was as relevant to that particular discussion as beauty and the beast was in other words not very, they were there only to illustrate other types of similar parables and classical themes. However I do believe the Levite showed compassion and mercy not pity, and those are two totally different things.

If you are confusing doing the moral thing with stealing and compassion with pity then it’s no wonder we are disagreeing.

Cheryl

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/14/2010 1:18:12 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Trevelyan, first of all my apologies for the length of this post they seem to be turning into novellas rather than replies.

I have been thinking how to explain the differences between what is right and different between cultures and sub cultures in a way which is more understandable, so hopefully I can explain what I mean more easily. So I am going to use two scenarios using the same man to hopefully explain the differences in a Gorean sense, these are extreme ends of the spectrum similar to the extremes Norman likes to use and so cannot really be considered generalities but only extreme examples.

We have a young man, locked up in prison for petty theft and carjacking, one day he starts to read one of the Gor novels ….

As he reads it he starts to wish he was like the men in the books, and he makes plans to change his life so he can be more like them. He takes every opportunity to learn, starts examining his life to see what he can change and eventually when he is released he moves to a new area so he won’t be tempted by his old life. He manages to get taken on as a mechanic and does his best to show he is worthy of the trust, slowly he becomes known for his good work and trustfulness, he will not cheat his customers and he does his best always. He is loyal to his friends but will defend his family and property with any force necessary.

Eventually he takes a free companion and starts a family, he goes to Gorean gatherings he is a good man who is known loved and trusted by others. In the mind of himself and others he is an honourable Gorean.

The same man reads the books and says I am like these men, so he spends his time in prison making new contacts so when he comes out he has more options eventually settling on drug dealing to make quick cash. Over time he starts to pimp out some of the women who needs his drugs and makes more money. He becomes ruthless with people, dividing them into those he works with who can be trusted, enemies to be destroyed or marks to be used, women are just commodities to be used and given away. He becomes known as a good and loyal friend whose enemies respect him, but cross him and you die. He knows if he gets caught and his expensive layers can’t get him off he will go to prison but he accepts that and doesn’t let the rules of “polite society” bother him as he can usually pay to get around them.

Eventually he decides to take a wife and start a family but she had better know her place as there are plenty of others wanting a dangerous man with money and he knows it. He considers himself a Gorean man with honour but he doesn’t go to gatherings as he has nothing in common with the marks that he knows usually go.

Both are Gorean, the fact that one brings happiness and obeys the law and the other deals in death and misery ignoring the law is irrelevant. By the codes of their culture and the profession they have chosen they are honourable men living by the Gorean philosophy.

This is why the culture you are living in is so important in deciding if what you are doing is moral. To steal when you are not part of a culture that believes stealing is the right thing to do and to use laws designed to protect to destroy is wrong in our culture.

And yet to a pimp and a drug dealer whose sub culture says that using people who are stupid enough to be used is right and pimping out a woman is logical and correct under those circumstances, after all only a fool would give her the drugs for nothing. The world is not fair and sheep are there to be fleased after all.

But I do not belong to the criminal/gang sub culture, I have no dealings that I know of with people who do, so for me stealing is morally wrong, you however may be part of a different subculture than I in which case for you stealing may be the right thing to do. You haven’t said though if you are a criminal or an average American who lives by the usual American cultural values and without that knowledge we cannot say for sure.

Cheryl

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/14/2010 2:11:37 AM   
Silentrunner26


Posts: 163
Joined: 7/15/2009
Status: offline 		We each have to ask our selfs what is our limit how much will we take before we act and to what end will we take it . This is honor . I ince thought joining a army and helping free a country themselfs would be an honorable thing to do . 30 yrs later I wish I had died in that jungle with those I left . There was no honor in destrying the buildings or bridges I did . I have never knowingly taken human life though I know I can do so and walk away . I have found no honor in shooting a man that will never even hear the sound of the bullet being fired . I saw an old man protect his hut from a well armed soldier with just a garden hoe . He finaly let us pass when my Sargent gave him a knife and offered his throat to the old man . It was the bravest thing I had ever seen . The old man and his family gave us food and stay in his shed for the night . The village gave us water and what they could spare . 2 days later we could see from the mountain top he had climbed the airforce and army had turned the village into a mud hole . They burned everything for a quarter mile down trees and all . It was then I knew humanity had no honor any more . Look for honor in yourself no where else .

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/14/2010 2:23:23 AM   
Naturallurker


Posts: 117
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Look for honor in yourself no where else .



A moving post 

(in reply to Silentrunner26)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/14/2010 3:56:48 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Silentrunner what war did you fight in?

Cheryl

(in reply to Naturallurker)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/14/2010 7:22:06 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		Hi Cheryl,

No apologies necessary. Clearly, you are putting a lot of thought into our discussion and I appreciate it.

However, we still disagree.

I think that your consideration of the young man following two different paths is flawed. Here are my thoughts:

As I have said before, the Goreans in the books share a set of values and beliefs. These values and beliefs determine how they act and, in my opinion, are the basis of what make them "Gorean." A "Gorean" on Earth is someone who shares those same values and beliefs, although their manifestation here may be different than on Gor.

What are these values and beliefs? I think these are some of the key ones:
1. A Gorean is sovereign in his territory.
2. A Gorean identifies with, loves and is allegiant to his community.
3. A Gorean identifies with and is proud of what he does for a living, and does it excellently and ethically.
4. A Gorean embraces the Gorean Morality, as outlined in Chapter One of Marauders. Here are its key tenets:
4-a. The Gorean morality is one of inequalities, based on the assumption that individuals are not the same, but quite different in many ways.
4-b. Guild is almost unknown in Gorean morality, though shame and anger are not.
4-c. Gorean morality is bent towards conquest and defiance.
4-d. Gorean morality encourages honor, courage, hardness and strength.
4-e. Gorean morality says, "We are not equal; we are not the same; become equal to me; then we will be the same."
4-f. The object of Gorean morality is to make people free and great.
4-g. "Do not ask how to live, but, instead, proceed to do so."
4-h. "Be strong, and do as you will. The swords of others will set your limits."
4-i. "Within the circle of each man's sword, therein is each man an Ubar."
5. A Gorean takes his place in the order of nature (i.e. dominates women.)

The Gorean civilization/cultures that Norman depicts in the books are all based on these values, and are therefore more in line with actual human nature, thus representing the "answer" to Norman's thesis.

(My girl has dinner ready, and I am hungry, so I will finish my thoughts later)

Trevelyan

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/14/2010 8:06:19 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi again Trevelyan,

I am enjoying this banter very much so thank you for your replies also. However I do have a few questions about the list you have made so far and your own views.

I have always wondered how those who keep slaves justify 4f “The object of Gorean morality is to make people free and great.”

When with slavery, after all it is repeatedly said that slaves have no honour, and their desire is to be enslaved and obedient not free and great?

“5. A Gorean takes his place in the order of nature (i.e. dominates women.)”.

I agreed with it right up until the “dominates women” bit.

Nature herself has determined that not all men are capable of dominating all women, saying that dominating women is an order of nature conflicts with 4a “The Gorean morality is one of inequalities, based on the assumption that individuals are not the same, but quite different in many ways.”

With all people some are more dominant and others more submissive with the majority clustered in the middle, a man with more submissive tendencies cannot dominate a woman who has many dominant tendencies, he simply will never master her, he may indeed so submissive he is unable to dominate anyone. In that case a man does not conflict with his place in the natural order if he wishes to submit to a woman, it’s simply that then he is unable to be classified as a Gorean.

Cheryl

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/14/2010 8:19:04 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1564
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings Cheryl....

That would be Viet Nam.

Be well....

Malkinius


_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/14/2010 8:37:10 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7228
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Hiya Malkinius,

At Age 47?

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/14/2010 8:47:06 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2104
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		Man, thats a rough childhood.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/15/2010 5:55:36 AM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		A quick correction:

4-b. should read "Guilt is almost unknown in Gorean morality, though shame and anger are not."

And a note:

When compiling my list of Gorean values, I use Norman's words as much as I can, with the intention of staying as close to his meaning as possible.

I will continue my thoughts later today...



_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 100
Page:   <<   < prev  2 3 4 [5] 6   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: Honor or No Honor? Page: <<   < prev  2 3 4 [5] 6   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2012
Collarchat.com is a member of the Free Speech Coalition
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.547