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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/15/2010 6:17:45 AM

sravaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

"Guilt is almost unknown in Gorean morality, though shame and anger are not."

Hello, Master Trevelyan,

Please forgive my intrusion into your discussion.... but I wonder, how do you distinguish between guilt and shame? I have a notion that guilt is felt vs. abstractions (gods, laws, whatever) while shame is felt vs. others perceptions of oneself. But I'm not sure that this distinction fits in a Gorean framework.

--sravaka

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Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

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Post #: 101

RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/15/2010 8:24:57 AM

ElizabethAnne

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Hiya Orion,

Quite right, the end of the Vietnam conflict was 1975. Roughly 35 years ago, for some us, we will remember seeing on tv the last of the helicopters leaving.

Take care,

Liz

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Post #: 102

RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/15/2010 12:01:36 PM

domiguy

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Can I become "Gorean" without ever reading a book?

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/15/2010 1:29:32 PM

Trevelyan

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Domiguy,

You asked this question in another thread, and I have not yet replied.

My answer is almost certainly not.

First, there are now 28 Gor books, and I understand a 29th is on the way. That is a lot of material. I gave a very short synopsis of what I feel are the key values which make Goreans Gorean, but that is all I gave. There is a lot more to know to even really understand Gor, let alone be Gorean.

It is kind of like reading a one page summary of golf, and wondering if you can now play a competent game of golf - possible I suppose, but not very likely.

There is a second, even more important issue. In the other thread you wrote "I have to tell you I came across one of the Gor books a while back and I thought it was a bad read. I couldn't do it, couldn't get through it. But that is just me."

In the last 3 and a half years I have heard that particular excuse hundreds of times, usually from people whose poor writing suggests that they would not know the difference between a good read and a bad read anyway.

Look at the list you copied in the other thread.

Goreans are sovereign --- Gorean morality is bent towards conquest --- Gorean morality encourages...hardness and strength --- ""We are not equal; we are not the same; become equal to me; then we will be the same" --- "Be strong, and do as you will."

Goreans decide what they want, and then they go get it. If there are obstacles in the way, they overcome them. They persevere in the face of adversity. Why? Because Gorean men are free, and that is what free men do.

One of my favorite quotes is from the book The Richest Man in Babylon, which is actually about personal finance but speaks directly to the Gorean concept of freedom:

"The soul of a free man looks at life as a series of problems to be solved and solves them, while the soul of a slave whines, 'What can I do who am but a slave?'"

Domiguy, if you are a free man, go get a copy of Tarnsman of Gor and read it. Don't whine about the sand in your panties, just set the goal and accomplish it. If you want more, read Outlaw of Gor, and so on through the series. If you have had enough after Tarnsman, thats fine, Gor is not for you. And if you just can't make it through Tarnsman because it is too hard, that is ok too because Gor is definitely not for you.

Trevelyan

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"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
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Post #: 104

RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/15/2010 1:44:49 PM

Trevelyan

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From: Mountain View, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

"Guilt is almost unknown in Gorean morality, though shame and anger are not."

Hello, Master Trevelyan,

Please forgive my intrusion into your discussion.... but I wonder, how do you distinguish between guilt and shame? I have a notion that guilt is felt vs. abstractions (gods, laws, whatever) while shame is felt vs. others perceptions of oneself. But I'm not sure that this distinction fits in a Gorean framework.

--sravaka

Girl,

The line is a direct quote from Marauders.

Guilt is a feeling of responsibility or remorse for some offense, crime, wrong, etc., whether real or imagined.

Shame is the painful feeling arising from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improper, ridiculous, etc., done by oneself or another.

Trevelyan

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"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

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Post #: 105

RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/15/2010 3:14:28 PM

Dangruscurvz

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quote:

Can I become "Gorean" without ever reading a book?

Lots of people throwing information at you now. Who to believe?

That's why a lot of us advise you to read the books. It's not just busy work. Read the books, come to your own conclusions. Once you do that, you'll have a whole new perspective on these discussions.

Having read the books you will be able to recognize who is true...

from those who are truly full of shit.

Wish you well,

~Dangrus

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Post #: 106

RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/15/2010 5:36:58 PM

AnimusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan
Guilt is a feeling of responsibility or remorse for some offense, crime, wrong, etc., whether real or imagined.

Shame is the painful feeling arising from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improper, ridiculous, etc., done by oneself or another.

How does this play out in a person's daily life? In the western Judeo-Christian morality that we are all familiar with, guilt and shame are nearly indistinguishable.

So I am curious how a morality that admits no guilt, guides and instructs people how to live life; If I back into someone's car, the Judeo-Christian moral code is the instruction to "do unto others, etc.";

Is there an equivalent Gorean moral code that would instruct a Gorean as to his "correct" course of action? By moral code I mean even a broad, sweeping moral outlook that could be interpreted to direct someone.

Or does this even come into play? Is the Gorean worldview one that lends itself to that sort of thinking, that there is a "correct" course of action?

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Post #: 107

RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/15/2010 6:04:51 PM

Dinnardin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan
Guilt is a feeling of responsibility or remorse for some offense, crime, wrong, etc., whether real or imagined.

Shame is the painful feeling arising from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improper, ridiculous, etc., done by oneself or another.

How does this play out in a person's daily life? In the western Judeo-Christian morality that we are all familiar with, guilt and shame are nearly indistinguishable.

So I am curious how a morality that admits no guilt, guides and instructs people how to live life; If I back into someone's car, the Judeo-Christian moral code is the instruction to "do unto others, etc.";

as Joan Rivers once said, back when she was funny: "Guilt is to Jews what sex is to normal people...and vice versa."

John, AKA Dinnardin

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Post #: 108

RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/15/2010 7:37:01 PM

Cherylmazana

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Hi Trevelyan,

I was thinking about your list, lists are easy I have most of the books in paperback and hardback, and the rest in adobe format, I can type in a word such as honour (using the American spelling ;-)) or morality and come up with hundreds of quotes. In fact many years ago we used to have “quote wars” where one person would try to prove their point by pulling out a quote. It was easy for me to see those who used websites for their quotes as they were either taken out of context and the previous or next passage in the book would show that clearly or else they were so clearly mangled they bore no resemblance to anything I could find.

While I do not think that you have just pulled these from a website, they are mainly taken from one book, one book out of twenty seven, and one large part of your list is from one long paragraph. Fourteen points, nine of which is from one paragraph, not even one point per book though I understand you ran out of time.

However there is nothing in your list to explain how you incorporate them into your life and what they mean to you, how you interpret them into daily living. They are simply a list, and lists mean nothing more than you can copy what you have read as every schoolchild knows. It is the explanation of the list that is valuable, what it means to you and how you use it daily.

Cheryl

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Post #: 109

RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/15/2010 7:41:25 PM

sravaka

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I'm happy you posted this AnimusRex-- it's the kind of thing that led me to ask the question.

I'm also thinking of a distinction people used to make between the West as a culture of "guilt" vs. Japan as a culture of "shame." The former would be all about feeling responsibility or remorse vs. Judeo-Christian moral precepts, while the latter has much more to do with how one is perceived by others. Maybe this could be characterized as a socially driven standard of behavior rather than a moral/religious one. Think of a samurai disemboweling himself to safe face after he has failed in some way, etc.

With the example of Japan in mind, I found it hard to imagine Gor as a shame culture (Goreans don't seem to care enormously about what others think of them.) But perhaps shame can also be felt when one's behavior has deviated from one's own internal code?

Just a thought.

--sravaka

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Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/16/2010 3:16:57 PM

Silentrunner26

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Just look up Contra's . There was so many different groups it was hard to know who was paying us .

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/16/2010 9:17:57 PM

CelticNightmare

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It's nothing about honor,and everything about thievery.

Lange made it clear that this happened a lot in Gor-and was one reason slaves were kept locked up when unnatended. So other men would find it difficult to steal them. If you lost posession for a set time-then the thief could legally claim the slave as his.

If a thief comes into my house and gets clobbered for presenting a legal threat to me-that's his problem.

But you people don't have legal "property" in this world-in terms of other humans. So your security is in her HEAD-and if it's weak-she was never yours to begin with.

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/16/2010 9:25:57 PM

Silentrunner26

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On this I will have to agree . I have been told since I was six "if they walk in make'em be carried out ." My uncle was a cop and told us all as long as the fall inside the door it is legal but if they fall outside drag'em in . Better to explain why it's dead than cry over who should have done what .

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RE: Honor or No Honor? - 2/16/2010 9:40:04 PM

CelticNightmare

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Shortswords don't get stuck in walls. And never jam.

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Post #: 114