Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean?

Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (Full Version)

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domiguy -> Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 8:10:09 AM)
Tal, Is it? I understand that people who refer themsleves as Gorean take on a belief system that are founded from the Gor series written by John Norman. As I understand them there are a few key components that are a running theme. They include living a life filled with honor, dignity the concept of a homestone and many others. I am not trying to make light of this. I'll take a little bit of a leap here, but let's compare it to Christianity. To some the notion of a young girl getting knocked up by God, the building of an arc, or people living for hundreds of years would seem totally absurd. However, if someone had no belief in Christ or God but still lived their life according to the teachings of Christ they could surely do worse. Now we come to Gor. It obviously is a belief system but yet many of the ideals or practices on Gor would be construed as being impractical if not totally meaningless here on the Earth of today. Obviously the cornerstones of the Gorean belief system are not the equivalents of an arc or people living to the ripe old age of five hundred. They can be found in the deeper beliefs those in the models set up that define a certain code of conduct. Does it ever bother you that many of the beliefs or going ons on Gor have no way to be practically applied in modern day Earth and would fail dramatically if ever attempted? For instance, I recently had an exchange with Orion. Where he made this statement. quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf ~FR~ In the Plains Indian Culture theft of a horse gained you a lot of honor. In the surrounding white communities of that time, it was a hanging offense. If someone is a "stranger" to me, then I will conquer what I desire. They will either be strong enough to defend what is theirs, or I will be strong enough to seize what I wish. If someone is not a stranger, then I view protection of what is theirs as part of my duty to them as a friend, neighbor, etc. There is no conflict in this application, it is circumstance that dictates many things in nature and in society. Live well, Orion In today's times this is an undefendable position no matter how many lawyers and politicians you want to bring into the mix to try and obfuscate your original position. It is a position and thought that is not defendable. This was added at some point in the conversation by Malkinius quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius {fast reply} Tal and greetings all.... Actually, Orion and Domiguy do share a Home Stone in that they are part of the same country and world and it is not legal in this country to go to some other country and steal. Also, stealing things someone has illegally is still theft under at least US law. Whether or not it is honorable to steal from a specific individual is up to a specific person's honor and ethical systems. Just about everything else that has been said on the subject so is just playing with fantasy, not reality. Be well all.... Malkinius Is it ever difficult to have a belief in a set of values where it seems that so much is based upon pure fantasy?

mnottertail -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 8:32:45 AM)
well domiguy, A system of ethics or beliefs does not have to extend to be a religous dogma. But keeping it in the religious cast you have set....... So, like the parable of sodom and gemorrah where Abraham reverently inquires of God if he would spare the city if fifty righteous people were found in it, then forty-five, then thirty, then twenty or even ten, with God affirming he would not destroy it after each request, for the sake of the righteous yet dwelling therein. So, if one will uphold the 80%, or the 70% or the 60% or even the 10% of the principles, which is the bigger fantasy, and how? Ron

domiguy -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 8:53:42 AM)
Tal, Ronnie baby, I agree wholeheartedly. And keeping this on a God fearing track. If we discount 90% of the pillars of salt to get to the 10% that brings on the unlimited wine does that not make us a tad bit hypocritical?...Of course it does. Because we are all hypocrites. I wear the shit like a stain of honor. But much like a Christian zealot who believes in the authenticity of the actual written scripture...Dinosaurs be damned, that person will always be pushed to answer his critics with answers like..."You don't understand God, because he only talks to me."or the ever popular, "Only people that share my views have the capacity to understand what I am saying." to be followed by the classic, "I will not defend my position but I would be more than happy to pick apart yours." I do understand this is the place for all things Gorean. Which is hot. However, when people make statements that are undefendable it is so predictable that they will always fall back to utilizing the classics to avoid having to shed the light of day on their beliefs. Because it sucks Nigerian ass to be exposed. Mal, The Great Earthly Ambassador to Gor Lord Domiguy

ZeIda -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 9:03:52 AM)
The only reason why you can't imagine Gorean morals to have no practical application in the modern world is because you are seeing things in black and white. What Orion said has very practical applications, you are just reading negatives into it where he never put negatives in. Orion's post: quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf If someone is a "stranger" to me, then I will conquer what I desire. They will either be strong enough to defend what is theirs, or I will be strong enough to seize what I wish. If someone is not a stranger, then I view protection of what is theirs as part of my duty to them as a friend, neighbor, etc. There is no conflict in this application; it is circumstance that dictates many things in nature and in society. Orion's post as read by you: quote: If someone is a "person I don't know ", then I will take by physical force from them what I desire. They will either be physically strong enough to stop me , or I will over power them to steal from them what I wish. If someone is a person I know, then I view fighting to protect their property as part of my duty to them as a friend, neighbor, etc. There are no problems with applying this literally in a modern culture; it is circumstances that dictate many things in nature and in society. Orion's post as read by me: quote: If someone is a "enemy/threat/person who is in opposite of my alliance " to me, then I will have no moral obligation to be nice to them, to respect them, to view them as an equal or treat them accordingly . They will be able to stand up to me and be strong (strong in this context not necessarily meaning physical strength but more strength of will, determination, character) enough to defend (defend in this context meaning that they will do as they please, instead be forced, either legally, physically, morally or by manipulation to do what Orion thinks is best) what is theirs, or I will be strong (again meaning more character then physical) enough to bend the situation in such a way that it will come out in my favor (either by using the law, willpower, physical strength, moral guilt, manipulation, or any other type of coercing that is more appropriate/suited to the situation). If someone is a person I have an alliance towards, then I view protection of what is theirs (again, in whatever way suited to the situation, evoking the law counts as much as kicking their ass depending on the context) as part of my duty to them as a friend, neighbor, etc. There is no conflict in this application (because there is not "one right way" to do this, instead, it is achieved by any means necessary/possible), it is circumstance that dictates (it is the context of things that makes him decide what path to take in which best to achieve his goals) many things in nature and in society. I don't see any trouble applying what Orion said in the real world. The only reason you are having an issue with it is because you want to make it sound like he is saying that he will solve any problem he encounters with his fists, or a sword. That's not at all what he said though. When it comes to stealing a man's property, or like Orion put it: "conquer what he desires/seizing what he wishes" there are many ways to go about that. In the case of a slave, simply being a stronger force of mastery in her life, and ordering her to leave the other man can do. When it comes to a legal property, there are many ways one can go about coercing, forcing, or inspiring a man to sell or give away property in a position of weakness, without beating him up or breaking the law. It's all about how exactly you do it. The only thing Orion really said in his statement is that he has no moral objections to use any means he possible can to take from those who are his enemies. Even if the tactics he uses are considered to be "unfair" by common Western standards.

MAWarGod -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 9:29:25 AM)
Tal ZeIda well put.... greetings domiguy I cann't help to think of a post I read by xBullx some where on this forum.. Where He compared "honor" to a garage door lock.. That lock keeps out the “honest man” if the man is a thief He will find away around it. The lock is there just as Honor or the codes are.. its either a symbol to you or not. Its all in your ethic’s and integrity.. I like the way ZeIda took the time to interpret Orion”s post to you.. So maybe you can read over it a few times and come up with what the statements mean to you and your ethic’s and integrity.. I wish you well.. Robert

domiguy -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 10:22:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZeIda The only reason why you can't imagine Gorean morals to have no practical application in the modern world is because you are seeing things in black and white. What Orion said has very practical applications, you are just reading negatives into it where he never put negatives in. Orion's post as read by me: quote: If someone is a "enemy/threat/person who is in opposite of my alliance " to me, then I will have no moral obligation to be nice to them, to respect them, to view them as an equal or treat them accordingly . They will be able to stand up to me and be strong (strong in this context not necessarily meaning physical strength but more strength of will, determination, character) enough to defend (defend in this context meaning that they will do as they please, instead be forced, either legally, physically, morally or by manipulation to do what Orion thinks is best) what is theirs, or I will be strong (again meaning more character then physical) enough to bend the situation in such a way that it will come out in my favor (either by using the law, willpower, physical strength, moral guilt, manipulation, or any other type of coercing that is more appropriate/suited to the situation). If someone is a person I have an alliance towards, then I view protection of what is theirs (again, in whatever way suited to the situation, evoking the law counts as much as kicking their ass depending on the context) as part of my duty to them as a friend, neighbor, etc. There is no conflict in this application (because there is not "one right way" to do this, instead, it is achieved by any means necessary/possible), it is circumstance that dictates (it is the context of things that makes him decide what path to take in which best to achieve his goals) many things in nature and in society. I don't see any trouble applying what Orion said in the real world. The only reason you are having an issue with it is because you want to make it sound like he is saying that he will solve any problem he encounters with his fists, or a sword. That's not at all what he said though. When it comes to stealing a man's property, or like Orion put it: "conquer what he desires/seizing what he wishes" there are many ways to go about that. In the case of a slave, simply being a stronger force of mastery in her life, and ordering her to leave the other man can do. When it comes to a legal property, there are many ways one can go about coercing, forcing, or inspiring a man to sell or give away property in a position of weakness, without beating him up or breaking the law. It's all about how exactly you do it. The only thing Orion really said in his statement is that he has no moral objections to use any means he possible can to take from those who are his enemies. Even if the tactics he uses are considered to be "unfair" by common Western standards. Here is the deal....It took you approximately three hundred words to attempt to make sense of a post that Orion spelled out in about eighty. It is also a very watered down version of his sentiments. He states "he will conquer what I desire." You translate that to..."I will have no moral obligation to be nice to them, to respect them, to view them as an equal or treat them accordingly." That is your definition of "conquering what I desire?" That is quite a stretch and it doesn't even begin to catch the sentiments of what was written. You lose a lot of credibilty if that is actually what those words mean to you. No one would ever reach your conclusion no matter how abstract they decided to go in deciphering the intent of Orions words. That is a ridiculous interpretation. But you have brought up some valid points that Orion seemed unable to capture. He spoke of utilizing political and legal means to acquire what he wants in a legal fashion. That's all fine and dandy but it again kind of lacks the true sentiment of the original post. The original post has a slant that leans heavy on the actual confrontation....The Indian directly stealing the horse. Now we move forward and perhaps it is no longer the Indian stealing the horse but the Gorean heading up the mergers and acquisitions dept. Or utilizing a zoning code or a slip and fall to reach the desired goal. Long way from the direct confrontational approach used by the Indians....Don't think this is exactly what was the mindset of Norman, who knows?....The times they are a changin' and it only makes sense to take such arcane practices and try and modernize them so they are relevant to the times of the day....I would like to speak to the guy that heads up the mergers and acquisitions on Gor. Got my eye on this parcel of land. I think it is owned by some sickly merchant should be fairly easy to apprehend. It would be fairly easy to surmise that if Goreans actually believed in these philosophies that would be the captains of industry, have great expanses of property, material goods and wealth that might make Solomon a tid bit envious. In reality are you not just standing right behind me at Pennys buying your undies? Where are the Great Gorean exploits of seizure? Where are the pirates, the Romans, the merchants that lay claim to their destiny and drink from the cup? We seize no prisoners. We bow down to no one. You are all obviously self employed at the least, right? Your women all svelte and pristine? You wear the finest colognes certainly not that AXE body wash shit. How could you have it any other way? What gives?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 10:41:41 AM)
Domi, it seems many understood what I was saying, except for you. The original post did mention physical, as that is the force mentioned in the Indian Plains culture, and also it is the last step in conflict resolution. Then other things got mentioned, so I also included that there were other means (legal, political, etc.), not just physical might, that could be used. The biggest misunderstanding that seems to have occured, is the use of the word "stranger" in my original post. This word is pretty significant to Goreans, and it leads off the thought I conveyed. You have ignored that. It seems pretty bad that you misunderstand what I am saying, have a little back and forth with me, and then start an entire topic dedicated to convincing others that your interpretation of what I said is correct, even though so many others completely understood what I said. That is some pretty shaky ground there, and seems more like you are just wasting bandwidth for an enjoyment of banter and verbal sparring. Have fun with that.

AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 10:45:26 AM)
quote: No one would ever reach your conclusion no matter how abstract they decided to go in deciphering the intent of Orions words. That is a ridiculous interpretation. Greetings Master, Actually, this girl read Master Orion's post in very much a similar manner to the way it was interpreted above. Being herself a "conqueree" so to speak, she understands that what conquers her are not force at all but other more subtle means. It brings to mind (in this girl's case) the Arthurian saying "'tis a gentle hand that rules the land" or in a similar vein "you catch more flies with honey." There are many ways to conquer and the tactics employed generally have to vary with what it is that is being conquered. Some tactics work on some things but not on others. Well wishes, anna

Koa -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 11:31:48 AM)
A great conqueror will conquer without anyone ever seeing it coming. We learn this by playing Kaissa or Chess what ever the case maybe. “The swords of others will set your limits” Now a Gorean in the fantasy world of Gor written by Norman would take this saying as that he or she could have or take what every they wanted as long as no would could stop them whether by legal or illegal means. Even on Gor stealing is an illegal act. The act of stealing is not about morals its about legality, stealing is not a philosophy it’s a way of life. Same thing with having slaves, it’s a way of life. That is way we say you can be Gorean even if you don’t have a slave. Gorean philosophy is about Honor, Respect, Love, Brotherhood… and yes a lot of religious figureheads have said this is they way we should live, Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ, Buddha, Confusius, Allah… With that said I will answer the OP’s question, “Does it ever bother you that many of the beliefs or going ons on Gor have no way to be practically applied in modern day Earth and would fail dramatically if ever attempted?” The first part of the question, Gorean philososphy can in fact be practically applied to life in modern day Earth and it does not fail at all when attempted or applied. So therefore I do not find it difficult to follow nor does it bother me. In fact I would go as far to say that my life is better for applying it in my life. This is my testimony.

domiguy -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 11:33:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Domi, it seems many understood what I was saying, except for you. The original post did mention physical, as that is the force mentioned in the Indian Plains culture, and also it is the last step in conflict resolution. Then other things got mentioned, so I also included that there were other means (legal, political, etc.), not just physical might, that could be used. The biggest misunderstanding that seems to have occured, is the use of the word "stranger" in my original post. This word is pretty significant to Goreans, and it leads off the thought I conveyed. You have ignored that. It seems pretty bad that you misunderstand what I am saying, have a little back and forth with me, and then start an entire topic dedicated to convincing others that your interpretation of what I said is correct, even though so many others completely understood what I said. That is some pretty shaky ground there, and seems more like you are just wasting bandwidth for an enjoyment of banter and verbal sparring. Have fun with that. First off Orion...This might not be your first language so I'll try and keep this simple. It is a forum...Much of what transpires out here is banter and verbal sparring. It is kind of how this thing is supposed to work. Still too difficult? Please refrain from the trite "bandwith bullshit" it is a weak statement and I doubt any twue Gorean would really fret over CM's loss of bandwith. Please don't try and avoid the questions by using the terms like "so many others" it makes you appear weak as if three or four people constitute "so many" but then again on Gor "so many" might have a completely different slant. likr the word "stranger." Stay on point. Please. It appears to be a very difficult task to you....Where did I say I had a hard time with the Gorean def of "stranger?" ...I think I get it. Hopefully. This is the part I don't understand and think it deserves some clarification... "If someone is a "stranger" to me, then I will conquer what I desire." Please explain what it means that you will conquer what you desire. In the other thread you mention you took or stole another man's slave...Cool. The question is... what in your mind is the def of desire and to what lengths will a Gorean man go to obtain that which he desires? Pretty straight forward stuff. Feel free to banter all you like if it will help illuminate your point and please don't hold back on the bandwidth. Just fooling with you...But the above question is probably what I was wrestling with most in trying to interpret exactly what it is you are saying.

domiguy -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 11:40:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Koa A great conqueror will conquer without anyone ever seeing it coming. We learn this by playing Kaissa or Chess what ever the case maybe. “The swords of others will set your limits” Now a Gorean in the fantasy world of Gor written by Norman would take this saying as that he or she could have or take what every they wanted as long as no would could stop them whether by legal or illegal means. Even on Gor stealing is an illegal act. The act of stealing is not about morals its about legality, stealing is not a philosophy it’s a way of life. Same thing with having slaves, it’s a way of life. That is way we say you can be Gorean even if you don’t have a slave. Gorean philosophy is about Honor, Respect, Love, Brotherhood… and yes a lot of religious figureheads have said this is they way we should live, Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ, Buddha, Confusius, Allah… With that said I will answer the OP’s question, “Does it ever bother you that many of the beliefs or going ons on Gor have no way to be practically applied in modern day Earth and would fail dramatically if ever attempted?” The first part of the question, Gorean philososphy can in fact be practically applied to life in modern day Earth and it does not fail at all when attempted or applied. So therefore I do not find it difficult to follow nor does it bother me. In fact I would go as far to say that my life is better for applying it in my life. This is my testimony. Aside from the Kaissa reference that was a pretty damn good response. You just mold the message to fit the times of today. You bend them to adhere to the laws and the society that is present. You do have to make some compromises. What about that it is a work of sci fi. Does that ever bug you?

domiguy -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 11:56:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis quote: No one would ever reach your conclusion no matter how abstract they decided to go in deciphering the intent of Orions words. That is a ridiculous interpretation. Greetings Master, Actually, this girl read Master Orion's post in very much a similar manner to the way it was interpreted above. Being herself a "conqueree" so to speak, she understands that what conquers her are not force at all but other more subtle means. It brings to mind (in this girl's case) the Arthurian saying "'tis a gentle hand that rules the land" or in a similar vein "you catch more flies with honey." There are many ways to conquer and the tactics employed generally have to vary with what it is that is being conquered. Some tactics work on some things but not on others. Well wishes, anna I will gladly profess my ignorance on the subject of Gor. In the novels is it common place or the routine to utilize the "capture of flies by honey" technique? Is this Gorean /Martin Luther King approach actually something touted by Gorean males as a standard means of action? Because that is really a different cup of paga than what Orion is dishing out. You can understand this, right? Oion states "he will conquer what I desire." ZeIda translate that to..."I will have no moral obligation to be nice to them, to respect them, to view them as an equal or treat them accordingly." You think it is some Arthurian model about bees and honey? I don't see this as what Orion intended. But then again it is apparent that his words have the ability to morph into just about anything he sees fit....So you have as about as much chance ofbeing right as th next person. There is little similarity here in these interpretations.

Koa -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 11:56:46 AM)
Does it bug a scientologist that their religion is based on a science fiction book? I doubt it. Gorean philosophy is not fiction, it is just placed in a fictional world. If we took the words of Jesus and placed them in a science fiction story would it make his words any less true or meaning less, no. The only thing that changes is the platform, not the speaker.

mnottertail -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 11:59:40 AM)
Well, there is alot of science fiction in the bible, beginning with the immaculate conception; nevertheless, some people hang out with it and roll. Hup

Unbuilder -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 12:01:26 PM)
greetings domiguy, You can call me thick, or slow if ya want, but... I can't see where there is any difficulty in being Gorean. From where I sit (in the cheap seats) being Gorean is about realizing the individual potential of humans. It may not always be comfortable or easy, but I think it's worth it.... If I felt otherwise... I would seek out a different belief structure. I work hard at what I do, and sometimes that's hard work, but I reckon that doesn't change much regardless of whatever belief structure a person chooses. In the meantime, I drink coffee out of a mug that has a dictionary definition of excellence printed on the side, which I received as part of an awards ceremony where I received a certificate which says in part "Your performance sets the standard". I realize that not everyone would be content with a coffee mug or a certificate, but there are other, tangible, rewards too. In a city with 12% unemployment, I not only have a job, but when the casino was brought under new ownership, the general manager identified me to the new owners as the best engineer in the company. At a time when something like 22% of the homes in Las Vegas are in some stage of foreclosure, I am in the process of buying a house. Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? I have to answer .... no Is it hard work? yes... Is it worth it?.... yes The alternative? I suppose that a person could...just be average... and help bring the average down, and hate their job, and their families... but... to me...... that sounds like a really disgusting approach to living. I wish you well.... self appointed ambassador Unbuilder

domiguy -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 12:04:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MAWarGod Tal ZeIda well put.... greetings domiguy I cann't help to think of a post I read by xBullx some where on this forum.. Where He compared "honor" to a garage door lock.. That lock keeps out the “honest man” if the man is a thief He will find away around it. The lock is there just as Honor or the codes are.. its either a symbol to you or not. Its all in your ethic’s and integrity.. I like the way ZeIda took the time to interpret Orion”s post to you.. So maybe you can read over it a few times and come up with what the statements mean to you and your ethic’s and integrity.. I wish you well.. Robert Tal, Thanks for your reply. It was polite and well thought out. I understand the analogies about honor and dignity. "I conquer what I desire". Does this mean I want some ice cream so it's off to the D.Q. Or does it have a more fundamental and deeper Gorean meaning?

Koa -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 12:09:23 PM)
It could have a deeper meaning if you find it and apply it, but it can be something so simple as, I want some Ice Cream, then go to the store and get some if you dont already have it in your freezer. You need or want a job or a better one, then get out there work hard for it and get it. You desire to be the best, then be the best. You want the truth, well you know what to do. P.S. Read signature below.

mnottertail -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 12:11:05 PM)
or, you could nick the ice cream offa someone just coming outta DQ, if you're up for it. Hup

domiguy -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 12:14:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Unbuilder greetings domiguy, You can call me thick, or slow if ya want, but... I can't see where there is any difficulty in being Gorean. From where I sit (in the cheap seats) being Gorean is about realizing the individual potential of humans. It may not always be comfortable or easy, but I think it's worth it.... If I felt otherwise... I would seek out a different belief structure. I work hard at what I do, and sometimes that's hard work, but I reckon that doesn't change much regardless of whatever belief structure a person chooses. In the meantime, I drink coffee out of a mug that has a dictionary definition of excellence printed on the side, which I received as part of an awards ceremony where I received a certificate which says in part "Your performance sets the standard". I realize that not everyone would be content with a coffee mug or a certificate, but there are other, tangible, rewards too. In a city with 12% unemployment, I not only have a job, but when the casino was brought under new ownership, the general manager identified me to the new owners as the best engineer in the company. At a time when something like 22% of the homes in Las Vegas are in some stage of foreclosure, I am in the process of buying a house. Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? I have to answer .... no Is it hard work? yes... Is it worth it?.... yes The alternative? I suppose that a person could...just be average... and help bring the average down, and hate their job, and their families... but... to me...... that sounds like a really disgusting approach to living. I wish you well.... self appointed ambassador Unbuilder Tal, That was a damn good answer. It was upbeat., Positive and it reflected how you have incorporated your belief system and made it work for you. Unbuilder, I think what people have a problem with given any belief system is when folks take that belief system and then elevate it up to the point of absurdity. Nothing is perfect in life. I imagine you have struggles just like anyone else and try and make the best out of your day to day walk through this world. Right off the bat you kind of strike me as a fairly normal dude. Not overly pretentious, but pretty straight forward and honest. Could definitley use more folks like you out here. Good post and hope things continue to go your way. Mal, The Great (elected) Earthly Ambassador to Gor Lord Domiguy

domiguy -> RE: Is it ever difficult to be a Gorean? (2/10/2010 12:18:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Well, there is alot of science fiction in the bible, beginning with the immaculate conception; nevertheless, some people hang out with it and roll. Hup Thank God for the days of yore. Since Mary was all of about 14 years old when carrying the holiest of holies...Today, Ol Jo would probably see Jesus only on visiting days at the penn. Believe what you want you just look like kind of an ass when you spew out the rhetoric without giving it the thought that it deserves.

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