What stands out about the books (Full Version)

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Silentrunner26 -> What stands out about the books (2/27/2010 11:33:42 AM)

I read allot but I have not read the books in decades . There is still so much I rememeber . The three main things for me that stand out when I think of the books is 1) People respected the warrior caste and honerd them 2) no woman ever had to ask if she was beautiful (she knew where she stood 3) You never stuck your nose where it didn't belong . If you where not part of what was going on you did not try to but in on it or stand around to long to watch .

Mostly it is the hooped earrings I can't see a pair of them now on a woman with out my blood start to boil .



Qorvas -> RE: What stands out about the books (2/28/2010 3:57:46 PM)

What stands out for me is the feeling of deep respect that enters a room when a Home Stone is spoken of



Cherylmazana -> RE: What stands out about the books (2/28/2010 8:34:21 PM)

Silentrunner, I think you need to read the books again. Tarl “stuck his nose in” and interfered regularly as did many other Goreans, and if something was being played out in a public area then many watched.

Doing the moral thing often requires interfering with others business, its ignoring it and letting things ride that is one of the problems that is one of “Earths” biggest problems, a fact that is often alluded to in Normans writings. After all “sames” are the ones afraid of sticking their heads up above the rest and saying that isn’t right. Goreans do what is necessary and if that requires “sticking their nose in” then they do it.

Cheryl



Nephilim -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/1/2010 6:08:00 AM)

I suppose that depends on whether or not you would consider Tarl "Gorean" in many of the situations.  Of course some people use the term to mean anything from the books, some use it to mean what "Goreans" in the books were.  Many of Tarl's actions are very opposite of what most Goreans would think or do.  He has a weakness for women/slaves through most of the books that most average Goreans do not.  The average Gorean didn't stick their nose in or run toward strange sounds.  They knew that could mean their own death.  Same with interfering with others on "moral" grounds.  I think that was what the OP was talking about.  In the stories, when someone was "abusing" a slave, no one stepped in (except Tarl with his Earth values).  No one interfered with your property rights, no one fussed about the color and height of your hut.  Ownership is  absolute.  If you chose to kill or hamstring your slave, no one would step in.  There don't seem to be any HOAs to fine you if you don't cut your grass.  Only free women look down on you when you visit paga taverns.  There is no committee (lead by feminists) and weak, brow beaten men to have them all closed.

Watching a public spectacle like a fight in an arena is not "sticking your nose in".  Going to war for personal gain or to retain your rights is not "sticking your nose in".  "Sticking your nose in" usually refers to nit picking someone elses actions or moral judgements.  For the most part, it wouldn't seem to happen in any pre-industrial society.  First, there is no time to be concerned with how the neighbor treats his dog, the crops need to be planted or harvested, wars have to be won, people cured of disease.  There isn't nearly the leisure time that we have on Earth for interfering where we don't belong.  Second, without being allowed large complex governmental structures, people are left largely (especially if not in a city) to govern themselves and enjoy much more freedom.  There simply aren't enough people who get paid to "stick their noses in".  Law is martial law, or very basic at best.

I would go so far to say that someone feeling they must interfere with others based on their morals is actually un-gorean.  Perhaps it is what Tarl does, and it certainly is what slaves do and what free women would do if they had the power.  As they did in Tharna? I think, the city with the silver masks.  The women had shut down the paga taverns and enslaved all of the men and the place is an example of how unhappy and unnatural a thing it was.  I would say that in that example, Tarl didn't "stick his nose in", he simply acted to keep himself alive and free and eventually that meant helping others to be free.  If he knew of the situation before he entered the city, he would have simply kept walking by.  In general, I think the books assert that men don't interfere in each others lives to nit-pick or hen-peck or "stick their nose in", that is left for the women, who are largely dismissed in that capacity, as they should be.

Edited to add:

Gor is about natural order.  That, in the most part, is the opposite of trying to create what You think is "moral", instead it is about understanding what IS and living your life the best that you can.  One of the obvious points of Gor, is that you cannot get to "natural" by movement or moralizing hence the need to have devices such as the Priest Kings to create the world.  Otherwise, the author could simply have said there was a big movement in the past to be what they are and gave it as an example of what should happen.  Instead he says, he doesn't think it could ever happen on Earth, or at least he doesn't know how.  We would have to be there naturally because we don't have (or aren't allowed) technology.  Gorean is something you can be, not something you can make your neighbor.



xBullx -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/1/2010 6:46:30 AM)

quote:



What stands out about the books



I've noticed the new books are larger than the old ones.

I've also noticed that, when considering the things that stick out to me, many "Goreans" are so busy chasing the cultural examples within the books that they fail to witness the simple philosophies that are exposed within the various Gorean cultures.

And if someone is lucky enough to grasp the concepts contained within they are then overly compelled to complicate things in order validate a lifestyle they aren't all to certain about, thereby working to promote delusional concepts of self importance.

Apart from that, I like the idea in the books where a man and a woman should not be afraid or ashamed to be who or what they are (this doesn't simply refer to slave versus free) and that when one embraces their nature and their potential they just might discover a sense of contentment and happiness that is in the end what life is all about. Relax, stop and smell the roses or something like that.

Ever notice that when you are sitting around with a small gathering of "vanilla" or other lifestyle types and you don't attempt to press a point of contention; and you then just subtly inquire as to what people would feel about a world that would be a little more Gorean (but don't use the word Gorean), discuss things like personal responsibility and accountability, where women could be more feminine or at least treated like what a Gorean sees a woman to be by men that are responisible, acccountable and have a deeper understanding of things "Gorean" like; most people will tend to favor a more simplistic and natural brand of living.

Of course you have to beat around the bush a tad bit, with many folks as soon as you mention slaves, the order of nature or that they might actually being living a "perverted" life or an "unnatural abomination" they become defensive and fail to consider all possibilities and start lobbying for position that they don't even have at the present.



Musicmystery -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/1/2010 10:31:49 AM)

Hi Bull,

quote:

a man and a woman should not be afraid or ashamed to be who or what they are ... when one embraces their nature and their potential they just might discover a sense of contentment and happiness that is in the end what life is all about.


Well said. Absolutely.

Live well,

Tim



Nephilim -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/1/2010 5:07:29 PM)

I've seen experiments where you ask the same question two ways and get conflicting answers, I think this is what you are coming up against.

Examples of questions with conflicting answers:
Do you want to help the homeless? Do you want to lower taxes and reduce the cost of federal government?/Do you think people should be paid your tax money?
Do you think every person should be allowed to be born? Do you think a woman should be allowed to make health decisions for herself?
Do you favor big sprawling government? Do you think the government should be doing more to help people?

People simply do not answer questions when asked based on reason.  They hear something, decide if it sounds good, and agree or disagree.  Ask someone if they favor more personal responsability, they will say yes.  Then ask them if they think they need to help the homeless, they will also say yes.

When you are talking about lifestyle choices and beliefs, they are rarely based on "reason", people usually only use "reason" to back up what they already have as an intuitive understanding shaped by experience and nature.



Cherylmazana -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/1/2010 8:19:32 PM)

Hi Nephilim

quote:

The bearded man waved his arm angrily, and spoke harshly. He was ordering the newcomer away. He pointed to his fellow and himself. They were two. The newcomer grinned and slipped the spear to the ground, loosening the helmet and shield. The bearded man placed his helmet over his head, it muchly concealing his features.
Carrying the shield on his left arm, carrying the spear lightly in his right hand, the helmet hanging, too, by its straps, from his right hand, the newcomer approached casually.
Again the bearded man waved him away. Again he spoke harshly. The newcomer grinned.
They spoke together, the three of them. I could understand nothing. The newcomer spoke evenly; once he slapped his thigh in laughter. The two other men spoke more angrily. One, he who was not bearded, shook his spear. The newcomer did not pay him attention. He looked beyond the men, to me.
Slave girl of Gor adobe Acrobat p26-27


This is a quote of a man approaching two strangers who have been striking an Earth girl who is destined to become a slave and threatening to kill her because she didn’t understand them. Later he fights them for the girl. He was a stranger sticking his nose in where it didn’t belong. He was also Gorean born and bred or are you saying that Clitus Vitellius is not Gorean enough?

John Norman uses the same themes regularly, it doesn’t matter if it’s a Gorean or an Earth man learning how to be Gorean. He likes the bad guys the be caught doing something he thinks is wrong so a “hero” can come along and teach them better. That to me is most defiantly “sticking your nose in”.

Cheryl



Cherylmazana -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/1/2010 8:28:22 PM)

Hi Bull,

I think you are right, the books talk about living life to the full instead of feeling as if you are trapped in a pointless repetition of the same actions day after day. If you do not enjoy your life you are not living you are existing.

I also think people are afraid of embracing their gender, of saying I am a man or a woman and I enjoy being one. We have been taught to be ashamed of our bodies and their needs, ashamed of feeling pleasure when someone of the opposite sex finds pleasure in us. Ashamed of how we are made, and that I feel is the saddest aspect of all.


Cheryl



Nephilim -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/2/2010 9:43:40 AM)

A stranger came and challenged two men beating a woman who was pretty, so that he could take her away and rape her and keep her for his own.  I could see how there was no self interest there at all. Also, this example only serves to prove the point, that only a man who wants to fight to the death sticks his nose in.  Believe it or not, that is not many people on any planet.  Do you think that had he been of a different caste or not one of the best fighters around that he would have stuck his nose in? In other circumstances, like in Port Kar, Tarl steps in because none of the bystanders will.  That means Most Goreans will not stick their nose in, even in lawless Port Kar.  If you think being Gorean does include that then you must thing being Gorean must also include being the greatest fighter in a warrior class, which would mean anyone who claimed being Gorean is just delusional.  Another interpretation of that scene is that a strong warrior does whatever pleases him, and if he is walking along a road alone, he may kill some people and pick up a girl.  Doesn't seem to fit the Earth sense of right and wrong you want to ascribe to Gor.  JN says over and over again, that people are fine with slaves being hamstrung and killed or used as animals.




Cherylmazana -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/2/2010 7:12:14 PM)

Its ok Nephilim

You ask for a horse, I show you a horse and you say it’s the wrong colour.

Alas for philosophy, where is that cave?

Cheryl



ResidentSadist -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/2/2010 7:36:27 PM)

For me, what stood out was that the author was fired twice. After selling millions of books, he got canned. The second timehe was also black balled from the industry for 14 years. Rumor has it that he was fired at the request of one publisher's wife and the other publisher's daughter canned him when she got control of the company.

Masculinity . . . is it so offensive?



Malkinius -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/2/2010 11:03:48 PM)

Greetings.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

For me, what stood out was that the author was fired twice. After selling millions of books, he got canned. The second timehe was also black balled from the industry for 14 years. Rumor has it that he was fired at the request of one publisher's wife and the other publisher's daughter canned him when she got control of the company.

Masculinity . . . is it so offensive?


His contract with DAW was cancelled almost immediately after Donald A. Woldheim died and his wife took over the company. The Telnarian series just didn't sell and they stopped publishing it after three books. He was demonized long before he was blackballed by much of the professional science fiction community and publishers. However, his last books had not been selling as well as the earlier ones. I think Magicians only had a press run (if I remember correctly what I was told) of about 350,000 copies. Most science fictions authors these days would sell just about everything they own for that many copies. Most current print runs are under 100,000 according to people I know in the business. I don't know anything about another company and a daughter.

Be well....

Malkinius



Nephilim -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/3/2010 7:02:09 AM)

Seeing the interviews with him explaining how he was "blackballed", sounded as though he was actually delusional.  His books weren't selling millions of copies and he was banned or blacklisted.  He Wasn't selling millions of copies, and no one wanted a second rate sci-fi writer whose only selling point was that he was offensive (is that a selling point?).  Try to get your own second rate sci-fi published, you will immediately "blacklisted" or blackballed as well.  That is, if blacklisted or blackballed means that no one is interested in publishing you because there is no profit in.  It is often the case that when new management takes over, they clear out the stagnant stuff that isn't doing anything for the company, no conspiracy theory needed.  But, if you are trying to sell your book, or get published, it is better to portray yourself as persecuted rather than just not all that good.  So, now like most "persecuted" authors, he is micro publishing.  Along with all those books of poetry that teenagers write and fan fiction that is also persecuted and blackballed by women, rich white people, Jews or whatever group the author thinks is persecuting them by not promoting their masterpieces.  I suppose he could be right, he was a great, best selling author, and was blacklisted.  Luckily technology has caught up with him and he can now publish and his books can be a runaway smashing success. (or make a small number of sales to a cult or nice market)  Since the huge sales have not happened, I'm guessing either the publishing houses have such a huge marketing machine that they can brainwash people not to buy his books, or book Buyers are also in on the feminist, thought police conspiracy.

Also, according to the stories printed online.  His daughter took over and "cut down on those authors and series which never quite justified their advances", not his wife, but since she has a vagina, it still supports the theory.  Wonder what the advances on the books were, and how sales compared to other authors they were publishing.  Was he a "top author" with that publishing house?  I'm willing to bet not.  Also, to hear him tell it, the Telnarian series sold great but didn't continue having him write because a member of the conspiracy took over as his editor.  Also, don't forget, he was also bumped from sci-fi conventions for making the other (feminist, thought police)speakers uncomfortable.  Perhaps the other female authors actually read his work and thought there was an off chance that he supported rape, slavery, violence against women, and all those other things that are written about ad nauseum in the books.  Also after he got around the conspiracy to have Hollywood pick up the story to make movies (win one for David), the conspiracy didn't want to associate their name with amazingly shitty sci-fi movies.  Luckily, they didn't really care who had rights to make the movie, they just didn't want their names tied in with those movies.  Perhaps MST3K is also part of the feminist, thought police, machine when they made fun of how bad the movies were.  Even he distanced himself from the outcome of the movies because they didn't apply his notes, but he would expect the publishing house to have welcomed them for some reason.  I'm betting they had more sense than he did about having them made at all.

What stands out to me in the books is that there are some more sci-fi books written with idealized female slavery and support for historical values that we can get behind without having to pretend to be a Hut or something from Star Wars.  Although, the Hut slave-girl aesthetic was hot.  Who here hasn't wanted to own a Twi' lek girl or two?  Blue is sexiest.  (see Farscape)

Anyway, I'm going to get back to work, where all of the Nazi, Jew, Fascists, Feminists are keeping me from becoming a millionaire.



Cherylmazana -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/3/2010 10:17:55 PM)

Wow Nephilim

Interesting viewpoint you have. To put it in a more recent context he is the biggest selling author of the publishing company he is now dealing with. They took over the rights to sell his books after the previous publishing company stopped printing his books after the company was told by the female authors whose books they also sold they would leave and go to other publishers as they didn’t want to be associated with a publishing company that sold “those type of books”. Loose one author or loose many is the choice they faced. They choose to keep the many happy, which is similar to what happened when he was blacklisted by feminists all those years ago.

To quote a cliché is it paranoia when they really are out to get you?

Many authors have been caught out by movie companies promising one thing and delivering another “The legend of the seeker” is one where the author has publically apologized to fans for what they did to his books even though he believed he had put in the contract enough clauses to prevent it.

Cheryl



Nephilim -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/4/2010 7:38:01 AM)

A best seller at a "micropublisher" or "vanity press", I stand corrected.  I bet the real publishing houses are just kicking themselves (the ones that aren't in on the feminist conspiracy).



PapaBlue -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/4/2010 10:03:30 AM)

I started reading the Gor novels in 1982 (I would have been about 12), while my mother and I lived in Saudi Arabia.  The books were on sale in the small grocery store on the SANG hospital compound.  One of my principal memories is just the fascination I felt when I found them there.  The Saudi censors found the cover art offensive, so they used black markers to more or less shade over the semi-naked slaves.  There were only a few of the novels at any given time and they appeared in no particular order.  It was rather confusing.

It was also extremely compelling.  I ached for naked girls to do whatever I wanted.  I dreamed of being a feared warrior and not a chubby little geek.  I wanted the sense of belonging that having a home stone implied.  In fact, I actually went out and found a small, grey sedimentary stone with a little nib of black basalt sticking out of it and carried it around in my pocket, hoping that it would give me courage.

I guess that was something that struck me in particular.  I remember that in one of the books, Tarl said that a warrior would feel reasonable fear of a farmer, if that farmer were defending his home stone.  I was scared, confused, and frustrated and I wanted the certainty that there was a single, immovable place in my world, something that I couldn't pushed away from or beyond.  I don't remember what happened to that stone, but I think I threw it out when I started reading Nietzsche as a teenager, back in the States.

Unfortunately, John Norman's Gor novels may have provided a vision, but they provided no guidance.  They certainly played a part in who I've become, but I would have been better off with a single male role model (a father, for example) who took the time to help raise me into manhood.



Cherylmazana -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/4/2010 8:31:40 PM)

Well considering that an active campaign at his last publisher by the female authors made it impossible to publish anywhere else but a small independent publisher, I imagine that his last publisher is just glad to be rid of a man who attracts such hatred by female authors.

However his new publisher is delighted, there are now on-line books, books being sold by Amazon, books being published in other languages, and now the potential for audio books being seriously discussed.

What books have you published lately even in a “vanity” press?

Cheryl



Nephilim -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/5/2010 6:26:37 AM)

You really should look up "vanity" press.  But anyway, I've hijacked this thread enough.  I'm going to go argue with some people about how the illuminati are keeping them down.



Dinnardin -> RE: What stands out about the books (3/5/2010 6:40:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nephilim

You really should look up "vanity" press.  But anyway, I've hijacked this thread enough.  I'm going to go argue with some people about how the illuminati are keeping them down.


Actually, the real problem is the Dimuminati.....same idea, but run by stupid people....much more dangerous to the world as a whole, and openly worshiped by Fox News (many members of it work there)

John, AKA Dinnardin



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