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Hypothetical Transit - 3/1/2010 2:17:54 PM

Qorvas

Posts: 43
Joined: 11/9/2009
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Greetings.

A couple of days ago a friend asked me a hypothetical question. I realized that it was interesting food for thought, so I thought I would share it here:

Let's say somehow (suspend reality a bit here, folks) you are acquainted with a crew member of the silver ships. He is a ranking officer so he has some pull. He owes you a favor, owes you money, whatever, and in exchange he offers to take you to Gor, no questions asked, right now. You don't have more than a few minutes to prepare so you go with what you have at hand. Assume you will be set down somewhere in the temperate zone and perhaps not overly far from some human inhabited area.

Think carefully: Do you take him up on his offer?

I think it was an interesting exercise. I suppose much about it would have to do whether one is male or female, confidence in one's skills, ability to be spontaneous, etc.

For the record, I said, yes, and that for me would be a hard decision with regard to my connections here on Earth. Yet, I figure the half hour or so before I got snatched up like a tabuk by a wild tarn, eaten by a sleen would be a half hour where I really got to LIVE.

Thoughts, comments?

Qorvas

Post #: 1

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/1/2010 3:09:20 PM

Aswad

Posts: 6618
Joined: 4/4/2007
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Hell, no. I have shit to do here. Why would I want to throw out every ambition and responsibility I ever signed up for? Or, more to the point, how could any man respect me if I just left everything behind? Just gave up on honoring my commitments? All of them? And for what, really? A society that is different, rather than better, and far more stagnant. Less say in the course of one's life, and in the course of history. Animals that are less diverse. Cities which retain most of the poor qualities of our own cities, and few of the good ones. The adventure in the books isn't a setting thing. It's a people thing. A choices thing.

Seriously, if you have never lived well, then leave the sodding keyboard, pack a bag and start walking...

... it's either that, or a chemical burn, innit?

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Qorvas)

Post #: 2

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/1/2010 3:54:14 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

No.

Gor has its charms, sure, but I'm not Gorean for the fantasy, even it the fantasy became hypothetically real--I'm interested in a better life and a better approach to it right here.

Besides, the Kurii aren't generally good about keeping their word to humans.

Live well,

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Qorvas)

Post #: 3

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/1/2010 4:48:35 PM

Nephilim

Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
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Would going off to Gor be much different from moving to a third world country? I suppose the advantage of Gor is no STDs, tons of young, very attractive, girls stolen from college campuses begging to be "raped", and the stabilization serums. STDs can be mostly avoided and I'm sure the third world has at least some attractive women. Hmm, personally, I've been considering the third world for retirement.

< Message edited by Nephilim -- 3/1/2010 4:49:03 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 4

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/1/2010 8:35:46 PM

Cherylmazana

Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
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For a woman that offer would mean being someone’s slave, a slavery that has the very real chance of death if you don’t please.

I would only consider it if I had a terminal illness or a serious disability that impaired my life significantly and could be cured completely by me going there.

Cheryl

(in reply to Nephilim)

Post #: 5

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/2/2010 6:57:26 AM

Kimveri

Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline

Morning,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qorvas
Do you take him up on his offer?

Many of us have seen lots of variations on this "would you go to Gor?" question over the years. On the most recent thread, found here , I replied:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri
Fantasy aside, without sharing a Home Stone or speaking the language at all, most likely the vast majority of us would be in chains. From that point, many of us who are older, infirm, out-of-shape, stubborn, ferocious & free-minded would likely end up as sleen feed.

"No!" is still my answer.

Goreans in the novels were not very 'warm & welcoming' of strangers, especially in the vicinity of their walls. There are no "tour guides", no "interpreters" one can hire. I'm fairly sure none of us have a father who is the Administrator of a large Gorean city...& so lack the resources to bolster our chances for survival into anything even slightly do-able.

~K

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Qorvas)

Post #: 6

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/2/2010 7:40:17 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 35819
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

My whip, then.

Hup

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK

(in reply to Kimveri)

Post #: 7

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/2/2010 10:55:47 AM

Kimveri

Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
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Howdy, Hup,

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
My whip, then.

Hup

I likely missed something here, but....are you saying that your whip is sufficient to open the gates of a Gorean city?

You gotta have Indiana Jones sorta skills! :-D

~K

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 8

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/3/2010 12:53:56 AM

Koa

Posts: 272
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline

Under one condition, that I was given the chance like Tarl and tought the language and ways of Gor. I would hate to get there and be singled out as a barbarian and killed or worse, sent to the mines or working fields and made a slave.

_____________________________

Lo Koa Bosk

...but to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought.
(Marauders, p.7)

(in reply to Kimveri)

Post #: 9

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/3/2010 4:37:23 AM

ElizabethAnne

Posts: 1710
Status: offline

Hello Koa,

Brings up an interesting question - how would you react if given the choice of death or slavery? Much the same decision Tarl had to make.

Take care,

Elizabeth

(in reply to Koa)

Post #: 10

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/3/2010 11:31:29 AM

Unbuilder

Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline

Hiya Liz

I know you didn't pose the question to me... but I'm gonna answer anyway... You said death or slavery... but the real choice was life or death.... and Tarl chose life... as I would.

Death is irreversible... as long as life continues... slavery might be reversible. Death is... a daily option... but ya only get to choose it once...

As far as a hypothetical transit goes, I have a coffee can with... maybe 25 pounds of pennies in it... and a demolition axe and... I'm in reasonably good health... so... I'd take my chances. The pennies aren't pure copper... but there is some copper in them... and I reckon that even Goreans had to refine copper ore.

I wish you well
Unbuilder

PS. The next time you and Brule come to Vegas... ya gotta plan on an extra day, so that I don't get caught by surprise...
Un

_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)

Post #: 11

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/3/2010 11:50:28 AM

Nephilim

Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline

If you wanted to trade in copper, you would do better with copper wire. Pennies have basically copper foil and are mostly zinc. A fun thing to do is scratch a penny and drop it in HCL(pool/muratic acid), all of the zinc wll be gone quickly and you are left with a hollow penny. You can also buy "copper flashing" from the hardware store if you want to make small copper coins. Also, they did away with that law making it illegal to own bulk gold. So, you can convert dollars to bulk gold again without having to do it under the guise of numismatics. I imagine good steel would be more valuable than most other metals anyway. I don't think the books mention the techniques used to create steel but without it, farming, and most other parts of life can be very difficult.

I think that if I were to take something to gor, it would be modern strains of corn, potatoes and wheat and other seed. I couldn't imagine life without them and who knows how productive the crops they have are.

(in reply to Unbuilder)

Post #: 12

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/3/2010 12:07:42 PM

Unbuilder

Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline

Howdy
actually... HCl is Hydrochloric acid, not muratic.... and I thought we were talking about... a half hour to decide... not a couple of days to cash out my bank balance and buy into copper cable. Not that copper cable would be... a killer deal.... if it were... then why would the silver ships be transporting a 125 pound female that they expected to get less than 8 ounces of copper in trade for, instead of... 125 pounds of copper cable?? Do the math for yourself.

I am perfectly aware that... the gold standard and the silver standard and even the copper standard don't have much to do with coinage in the modern world, which is why I said that even Goreans had to know how to refine copper ore.

Unbuilder

_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

(in reply to Nephilim)

Post #: 13

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/3/2010 6:25:12 PM

Nephilim

Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline

The economics in the books are way off, but the intent was that female slaves were almost worthless, not that copper had high value. Of course, special slaves could bring high prices.

HCL(hydrochloric acid) and muriatic acid are the same thing, as far as I am aware. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrochloric_acid

Isn't making useful steel more difficult, technically, than copper? I thought man used copper, then bronze, then iron and then it took quite a long time to create the Bessemer process for steel. Before that, steel was mostly made by hand hammering alloys of iron. If not made in large foundries, steel production is extremely labor intensive and cheap steel production is a post-industrial phenomenon. So, in the past, steel (and even iron) tools were very prized and not uncommon to be traded as currency (such as arrowheads and axeheads) to people who were pre-industrialized.

I'm really not sure, from the books, why there were journeys of acquisition other than as a device to move the plot along and to give characters from our own society to write about. I think the early books imply that Tarl was needed to bring down Ar, but it didn't seem very clear that they were working with his father in that capacity, since he doesn't seem to know the true nature of the priest kings (maybe they were working through agents for some reason). Then in the next book we learn that they could have simply leveled the city of Ar as a warning.

< Message edited by Nephilim -- 3/3/2010 6:45:13 PM >

(in reply to Unbuilder)

Post #: 14

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/4/2010 4:05:47 PM

Aswad

Posts: 6618
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

Actually, the point was that Lange decided it would be hotter (in terms of kinky humiliation and objectification and such) to have the prices for slaves be artificially low. The closest you will get to a culture which had the same kind of slavery (i.e. slaves not permitted to do anything truly important, apart from farming or mining) would be Spartan culture, and they had virtually no free citizens at all (vs Gor with about ~10% or so in slavery), with their slaves breeding like rabbits, as most uneducated farming communities tend to do under difficult circumstances. Even these had a trade value which was higher than the value assigned to slaves in the Gor books, which indicates that the economies of supply and demand, scale, worth, or any other metric, are completely out the window. Which leaves us with the essentially irrefutable position that the prices are symbolic, and serve a distinct purpose in humiliating the slave girls.

Incidentally, fighting over the equivalent value in food would probably be seen as ludicrous, yet men in the books fought and died for slaves whose fixed value was that low. This is the real value of the slave, not the coin exchanged. The coin is a device. Some will argue that it is an in-setting device, used to help establish the mindset in the girls (well, one might also assume that it instilled in them the notion that men on Gor are among the dullest knives in the drawer, to say nothing of their math skills and financial prowess). But, as a famous maxim goes, one should not needlessly multiply entities. And a single entity will adequately account for the facts: it's hot kink stuff.

As for metals, technology doesn't factor into it, due to the PKs. You can't do anything that will generate significant force or temperature, so many metals and alloys are simply not that interesting. You can't build anything that requires modern metallurgy, nor would you be allowed to teach it. The refining of ore, however, is a constant. And some ores happen to be a fair bit harder to refine (or obtain) than others, and you probably wouldn't get anything near the purity of a common, minted coin with the pre-modern technology of Gor. I think Unbuilder is spot-on there.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Nephilim)

Post #: 15

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/4/2010 6:11:39 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7219
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Muriatic acid is kind of the same thing, just diluted to about 30% or so.

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

(in reply to Nephilim)

Post #: 16

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/4/2010 7:51:15 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

As for metals, technology doesn't factor into it, due to the PKs. You can't do anything that will generate significant force or temperature, so many metals and alloys are simply not that interesting. You can't build anything that requires modern metallurgy, nor would you be allowed to teach it. The refining of ore, however, is a constant. And some ores happen to be a fair bit harder to refine (or obtain) than others, and you probably wouldn't get anything near the purity of a common, minted coin with the pre-modern technology of Gor. I think Unbuilder is spot-on there.

They can make steel....I think the metal workers can handle it.

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 17

RE: Hypothetical Transit - 3/5/2010 6:49:17 AM

Nephilim

Posts: 143
Joined: 3/27/2007
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They have to be able to make steel, otherwise who makes all the knives and swords? I'm not sure why the Priest Kings would destroy anything with temperature and pressure. Seems they only destroy weapons that are advanced. There is an illustration of them killing someone who made a crude gun. My point was only that steel tools would have higher value to an agrarian society than decorative jewelry (which is easier to manufacture). That is why so many ships were sent back to europe loaded with gold. Europe had large foundries for creating cast iron tools, so they were cheaply produced but since smaller places had no industry, the tools were very valuable. If you don't have large foundries, then metal products are worked until they are gone, and those that last become heirlooms. That was true with any smaller groups of people, not just natives, as you see with early colonists. Without a steel plow, feeding people on a large scale is very difficult and when countries wanted to punish the colonies, they taxed steel tools. So, copper, silver, and gold coins would trade better in an empire like Ar, not in small communities. On second thought, they must have had large foundaries to create steel and concrete, unless the towers were made only of stone. Even stone buidings usually have steel pins.

Anyway, I guess that is very off-topic. Personally, if I had the choice, I would take the stabilization serums and stay here. Not mutch advantage to Gor other than the serums. Don't really care if I can jump really, really high.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 18

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