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Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 5:10:50 AM   
Nephilim


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Was John Norman really blacklisted or was he simply an average pulp sci-fi writer who has been cleared out of publishing houses as normal financial decisions based on his sales and demand vs pay and houses thinking it isn't worth the association with his opinions?

I have enjoyed the books he wrote and am glad that they are generally available but they Are generally available and I am under no illusion that he is either the best or the worst author out there.

In your opinion, is there a feminist conspiracy that has kept him from large publication or does he simply only have a small niche group of readers as most pulp sci-fi authors?



Cherylmazana,
I am blacklisted by major publishers, therefore I must publish my content online.  You see there is an evil conspiracy of people who work at publishing houses that require that you have good work, and the ability to promote and sell well to a general audience (or to their niche).  That and you have to find them at a time when they are open to new things.  I have "self published" several websites that have had millions of readers over the years.  I have also self-published several non-fiction works.  My girl has self published two novels.  I have considered self-publishing a couple of new books, but mostly non-fiction.  I have several friends who are "published" in various areas and mediums. (art, music etc)  Of course, none of this has any bearing on the question of specifically why JN lost his contract with certain publishers, or if there is some feminist conspiracy.  Not sure how this has anything to do with what stands out about the books either.  I suppose this is supposed to be some sort of ad hominem attack.  Perhaps, since you now know what a vanity press is, perhaps you should look up logical fallacies.
 
Throughout time there have been many books that were salacious that people could not get enough of.  This is why we use the word sadistic.  These books always find publishers.  See, in the end, if people buy something in droves, there is someone else who will sell it. 
 
To get a book published, it has to be more than "good".  It has to be profitable, fit with the publishers type of publications, the author has to be promotable, and the profits of its publication must be better (in the opinion of the publishing house) than anything else that comes across their desk.  If a book sells at number 2000 within a genre, that means that they lost money by not publishing one of the the 1999 books that sold better. 
 
Being published, finding a record label, landing a television show, etc has so many people trying and so few accepted that there is no need for conspiracy theories as to why certain people aren't picked up.
 
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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 5:49:39 AM   
Dinnardin


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I personally think that it was a combination of several things which put the brakes on his writing career...the feminism movement was certainly a part of it, but, I think, his utter lack of talent as a writer was equally involved.  The fact is, no matter how meaningful and impactful is the message and philosophy of the books, the man flat out can't write....just as a quick example, I offer you this from Tribemen, a scene in which an earth girl, newly arrived, tied and panicked, is being forced to watch a Gorean slavegirl dance:

"You are no longer on Earth," I told her. "You will be taught. The lessons may be painful or pleasant, but you will learn."

"I do not wish to do so," she said.


really? really??

a girl in flat out panic, her life totally shredded, responds with "I do not wish to do so"??

The man can't write.  What he is...what he always has been, is a philosophy professor.  This does not require him to be able to write, merely to be able to think.  The books carry great message, and, if you are willing to dig your way through the crap, you will learn a great deal...but...

Publishers, especially larger ones, are in the business of selling books.  People want books that read well, that are enjoyable.  We Goreans are not exactly a huge market, and the masses are simply not going to buy books that are, so often, almost painful to read.  Add into this the vast feminist conspiracy, and it was only a matter of time until he was dropped from the major houses.

John, AKA Dinnardin

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 6:12:09 AM   
Jeffff


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You folks may not like this, but I have picked up a few of the books. I have to say I found the writing so bad that I couldn't get into it at all.



Jeff

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 6:25:33 AM   
Louve00


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It has been said that Norman was blacklisted by publishing companies because Gor was not PC.

"While the Gor books were enormously popular in the 1970s -- and were even translated into 10 languages -- they were out of print by the late 1980s. Fans said the books were victims of political correctness, and accused publishers of bowing to the demands of feminists and censors. Norman himself said he was "blacklisted" by the publishing industry."

http://www.theadvocates.org/celebrities/john-norman.html

The quoted paragraph above is taken from the link below that.  I found it an interesting article written by someone named Bill Winter.  I don't know if a Gorean would, or not.  It's not a bash on Gor.  It talks about why Norman takes the political views he does, and how his trials and tribulations while writing Gor may have led him to be the Libertarian he is.

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 7:03:56 AM   
Nephilim


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Perhaps persecution should be thought of as identification as Gorean.  Perhaps it is important to self-identify as persecuted and that counts as evidence.  I don't agree with that.  So, citing some source with evidence, not claims based on the authors word would probably be helpful in supporting the claim.

Some people believe that the US killed a few thousand people by blowing up the WTC.  Many people believe that aliens landed at roswell and built the pyramids.  Many believe that the illuminati controls the world.  Luckily belief doesn't make fact, but in many cases, people believe in spite of fact and most do in the absence of it.

http://www.pantheus.com/TGV/archive92002/TGV/biblio.shtml
In that interview, his evidence of conspiracy seems weak, paranoid, and silly.  He was bumped from a sci-fi convention because someone (obviously a bigger author) didn't like him.  No surprise there.  I'm sure there are many people who don't like him.  I am sure many people who have read his books would also feel "uncomfortible" around him. 

He was dropped by a publisher who was nice enough to explain that his daughter was "determined to cut down on those authors and series which never quite justified their advances."  So, to refute that claim, you would need to know that companies internal accounting.  Because the leadership of the company switched from a man to a woman, is that evidence of conspiracy, I don't think so?  How much was he paid, what were his sales, were they on a decline?  Did they "justify his advances"?

He makes some conflicting claims about sales.  He says that they couldn't have dropped him because of sales, because his books sold millions (which specific book? was it the new books in the year they were published? Where they sold as kindling?).  Then he went on to say that his books were still "selling well in europe".  That is usually the fall-back for bad author, musicians, etc, everywere.  "I'm really big in europe".  That is something you tell people in a bar who will never check.  It is akin to, "I am a top secret agent, but if I say more than that I would have to kill you".  Then, magically, when he went to his next publisher, his sales weren't near millions and dwindled from there. 

I'm not saying that there is no conspiracy or black list, only that no one has presented any evidence of it.

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 7:19:51 AM   
Louve00


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Right.  I wasn't claiming there was a conspiracy.  Nor did I say (blanketly) that Norman was blacklisted.  Only that Norman himself said he was blacklisted.  I was not invited to that convention and I am not a writer, so I can't produce the evidence you're looking for.  All I can do is show you a link I found where Norman said he was blacklisted.  He also said it in the link you provided.  So maybe I am just not understanding what your question is.  Whether there is a blacklisting committee that decides such is true and real, again, I don't know....but kind of doubt it.   (I think what happens is you just find yourself being outed of events and gatherings you used to be a part of)

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 8:13:29 AM   
Musicmystery


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None of the above.

You're overdramatizing this.

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 8:24:10 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

It has been said that Norman was blacklisted by publishing companies because Gor was not PC.


Hasn't Piers Anthony been claiming the same thing for about ten years now? He never has any problem getting published that I've noticed.
Do you really think that if the publishing houses had a sinister feminist agenda, they'd be publishing Julie Burchill, Camille Paglia or all those Robert Heinlein reprints?
Norman is a crappy writer whose time has passed. That's a lot more likely to cause him problems than any PC conspiracy. As far as I can tell, the only American writer who's had trouble with one of those is Andrew MacDonald. If there was still enough of a market for the Gor stuff to reward a publisher for keeping it in print, Norman wouldn't be having these problems.

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 8:44:03 AM   
Louve00


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Dunno, Moonhead.  I doubt there is a sinister feminist agenda, but then again, I just don't know.  Norman seemed to believe that, but who knows why he did, or whether he said it to soothe his own ego, again, I just don't know.  He may indeed be a crappy writer, but people have bought his books, and as far as the Gor books, chose to live the philosophy within as their lifestyle.  If you ask me, its at that point that whether he was blacklisted or not is irrelevant. 

If you can extract a philosophy from writings and lead a fulfilled life according to those writings, it really matters little whether the written words were written well or not.

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 8:48:59 AM   
Musicmystery


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I really don't want to play this game yet again.

He had a seven book run and had to change publishers, reportedly concern over content an issue. He got a new deal with a free hand and a long run. He lay fallow for a while, and wrote for a third publisher, with small but certainly respectable runs. As far as that record, no reason for shame. Not everybody is a best seller. It's fine.

He indeed has been blackballed from some sci-fi events over perceived misogynistic views. No surprise there--he certainly whacks feminism hard, and that's not a bunch that rolls with the punches.

As for the shots at his writing--yeah, sure, congratulations, whoopie, he ain't Joyce or Russo or Atwood. He's not someone who should write without an editor. Nothing that hasn't been laid out a hundred times before. I'm not going to defend it--I share the criticism (though I have better basis than these fly-by swipes, and some books are better than others in terms of writing).

Gor fans, though (discounting the 2nd Life, roll play variety), are interested in the ideas that writing exposes, the social criticism, the analysis of human nature, its history and possibilities, and prescriptions for better approaches, played out in the novels. Whether it's a good read is another matter. No one reads philosophy for the drama. And OK, sure, he's not Sartre or Camus either. But few people are, and no reason to dismiss a well-thought out analysis and alternative.

If not for you, fine, move along, nothing to see, who cares?

Next.



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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 8:51:41 AM   
Jeffff


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Hey, I don't like Joyce either.....

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 8:59:44 AM   
Rule


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As I understood it, Norman and Sharon Green and perhaps some others were kicked out of DAW when Donald Anson Wollheim died and his feminist daughter took over management of the publishing company. Sharon Green being then an excellent author could switch to Avon, but Norman unfortunately could not find another publisher for a long time.

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 9:06:48 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nephilim
I'm sure there are many people who don't like him.  I am sure many people who have read his books would also feel "uncomfortible" around him. 

He was a great storyteller and his books had a sense of wonder and were heroic. I have never met him, but he once wrote me a much appreciated polite and extensive reply to a somewhat hostile or criticizing letter. (I had to wait two years before I got that reply, but it was worth the wait. I have still got it somewhere.)

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 9:28:49 AM   
Musicmystery


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This is really a question for Simon.

Everything I've heard indicates a polite, mild-mannered, thoughtful man.

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 9:47:42 AM   
AnimusRex


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It should also be pointed out that the publishing world is an incredibly competitive world in which its difficult to maintain any sort of preeminence. Meaning that having 26 books published is quite an accomplishment in its own right, whther they are well or poorly written.

For every Stephen King or John Grisham, there are tens of thousands of English professors and high school teachers papering their walls with rejection notices, hoping for that one book to be published.

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 11:58:11 AM   
Moonhead


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Very true, Animus. In the light of this, I find Norman equating a new EIC at his publisher being less inclined to publish his stuff than the last guy was with a blacklist a bit feeble. He's published stuff at other imprints since, so he's obviously not been blacklisted.
I'd suggest that a few of the whining crybabies who like to insist that they've been blacklisted by an evil feminist/liberal/other conspiracy within the publishing industry try getting a proper job and joining a union. Then they'll have a much better idea how a blacklist works. Anybody who thinks that a bloody science fiction convention reflects the way the publishing industry works probably isn't playing with a full deck.

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 11:59:59 AM   
Moonhead


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It's also worth mentioning that publishers have been purging the midlist steadily since the turn of the '90s, and Norman is the very definition of a midlist SF writer.

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 8:23:32 PM   
thornhappy


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I'd be more in favor of the "poor writing" theory.  It really is bad, bad writing.

You haven't been able to find early Marion Zimmer Bradley stuff for decades  (the earliest Darkover books), or the Sword & Sorceress anthologies and she had a lot more skill.  I don't think that was due to a male conspiracy.

edited to say:  Her stuff was out of print even while she was alive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

It has been said that Norman was blacklisted by publishing companies because Gor was not PC.

"While the Gor books were enormously popular in the 1970s -- and were even translated into 10 languages -- they were out of print by the late 1980s. Fans said the books were victims of political correctness, and accused publishers of bowing to the demands of feminists and censors. Norman himself said he was "blacklisted" by the publishing industry."

http://www.theadvocates.org/celebrities/john-norman.html

The quoted paragraph above is taken from the link below that.  I found it an interesting article written by someone named Bill Winter.  I don't know if a Gorean would, or not.  It's not a bash on Gor.  It talks about why Norman takes the political views he does, and how his trials and tribulations while writing Gor may have led him to be the Libertarian he is.


< Message edited by thornhappy -- 3/6/2010 8:28:15 PM >

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 8:26:09 PM   
Smutmonger


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He didn't sell well.

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RE: Was John Norman blacklisted? - 3/6/2010 8:27:12 PM   
FukinTroll


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

I'd be more in favor of the "poor writing" theory.  It really is bad, bad writing.



But his inconsistencies were top rate.


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