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RE: An Outsider's Question


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RE: An Outsider's Question - 3/31/2010 6:48:46 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16602
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Most of the slaves of the Goreans I know, are fiesty, strong, intelligent creatures that if not mastered by their owners would in all other aspects be up there on the bell curve that was mentioned. There is an old onlineism that goes along the lines of "A Gorean can lead a horse to water, and make it drink.", I prefer to think that it is because a good owner knows how to turn what the creature enjoys doing naturally into a useful teaching tool.


Thadius,

One of my favorite takes on sayings is "You can lead a horse to water. You can't make it drink, but you can walk it around until it gets thirsty."

_____________________________

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Gorean FAQ Threads

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: An Outsider's Question - 3/31/2010 6:53:00 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16602
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Let me paraphrase, to see if I understand...Women that associate with Gorean men tend to be strong women. Not so much submissive as they are subject to mastery IF they find a man that: 1) has the desire to enslave her and 2) is capable of mastering her in that fashion. It does not change her inner strength in any way, it just makes her subject to his will?


Perhaps thinking of it this way, without the gender difference, will help: there are men (and women) who are strong leaders. This is not because they force others to follow, or because those who follow them are weak; it is because they are men who can inspire other capable men to want to follow their lead.

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: An Outsider's Question - 3/31/2010 8:24:11 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Saffleur

<snip>
Telling me that you feel I am wrong doesn't do much. It just makes you a defiant woman, which is all well and good, it won't change me, nor how I feel or live my life. To do so would betray the idea that I am a free man. Last I checked this community was here to discuss things Gorean and help others who are not familiar with or those wishing a deeper understanding of what that is by interacting with those in this community. You can't accomplish that by simply saying "Oh You're a wrong foolish man and I'm a female who thinks she is 'hot shit' and knows it -all-"
<snip>


Tal Saffleur,

I was reading through the thread and something jumped out as something I hope you can clarify for me. The bolded text above is what I am having issues with, I am confused as to what you mean by it.

Are you suggesting that a free man should not take the words or statements of others into account when making up their mind? Further, are you suggesting that if a man sees an error in his ways because somebody made a valid point, that he is no longer free if he moves to change that error? Or are you suggesting to listen to what a "defiant woman" is saying and if it has merit, making a change or how you feel about something would negate a man being free?

I look forward to your comments, and clarification. Thanks in advance.

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Saffleur)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: An Outsider's Question - 3/31/2010 8:25:11 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Most of the slaves of the Goreans I know, are fiesty, strong, intelligent creatures that if not mastered by their owners would in all other aspects be up there on the bell curve that was mentioned. There is an old onlineism that goes along the lines of "A Gorean can lead a horse to water, and make it drink.", I prefer to think that it is because a good owner knows how to turn what the creature enjoys doing naturally into a useful teaching tool.


Thadius,

One of my favorite takes on sayings is "You can lead a horse to water. You can't make it drink, but you can walk it around until it gets thirsty."

Tim,

I like it. Thanks for sharing it.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: An Outsider's Question - 3/31/2010 9:11:23 PM   
Saffleur


Posts: 247
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Lenoir NC
Status: offline 		Tal Thadius,

Neither actually. I believe it says exactly what it says...nothing she says will change my mind so she should stop trying. A man can change his if he is at fault. That fault like everything else is based on perception, is it not? Hitler believed he was right in the Holocaust, other nations agreed with him and then others did not. He stayed straight and true to his beliefs, died for them.

Furthermore, my comments were directly to ElizabethAnne and her female entourage who pretty much tell me I'm wrong since they are the be all end all of free women and Gorean archetypes. I don't see why it's a problem for me to politely tell them that their continual efforts to undermine what I say will not work. I speak rather plainly because I don't see a point of beating around a bush.

The man or woman for that matter since gender seems to be the hot topic for some unbeknown reason to me, that doesn't listen to those around them will find themselves ultimately alone. Friends, family and foe alike often have grains of wisdom to share if we listen. That doesn't mean that they should jump ship at the next best thing does it? Changing an opinion simply because someone says that the prior opinion is wrong does indeed show a loss of freedom, they cannot make a choice for themselves, they allow others to.

If you need any other clarification I am sure the crystal ball can provide it. I can't speak any clearer than I have.

I wish you well,
Scott


_____________________________

When we see men of worth, we should think of equaling them; when we see men of a contrary character, we should turn inward and examine ourselves.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: An Outsider's Question - 3/31/2010 9:25:52 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Scott,

Thanks for the reply. Like I said it was more of a confusion caused by the second sentence, than anything else. I appreciate you clarifying your position.

Further, I have no care as to whether you tell somebody to deep throat a stick of dynamite or jump off a cliff. You most definitely have that right. I wasn't aware of the ongoing thing, as I haven't been very active up here recently. I appreciate you speaking plainly.

To answer your questions:

Nope, I do not believe somebody should jump ship at the next best thing. However, I do believe that it is possible to hear an opinion from somebody we dislike, disagree with, or even an enemy and weigh that opinion in the light of truth and find that it makes sense and even worthy of changing our minds or behaviors. I further believe that doing so doesn't show a loss of freedom, but is an exercise of that freedom, you know being able to decide one way or the other about the merits of the opinion expressed. Finally, being stuck in one rut and not being willing to change even an opinion would seem to be like being in a prison, what point would there be in not experiencing new things, if one is not willing to change even a simple thing like an opinion?

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Saffleur)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: An Outsider's Question - 3/31/2010 11:30:33 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		Tal and greetings all.....

This is a bit of a side issue but I am going to toss it in any way as it covers things most people have never paid attention to. It covers different types of slavery in the books and no, I am not talking about the ever popular kettle versus pleasure slave distinctions.

In the books, technically no one was a slave, even if treated like one, unless they either first publicly declared themselves to be a slave or were either judicially or forcibly collared and kept collared. Someone could capture a person and claim that they are now a slave but if they are not registered and marked as one and can get away, they are once again free. To use Tarl as an example as he was often enslaved in the books, only twice did he submit himself as a slave. A few times he was judicially condemned to slavery. In those cases, he required someone in authority to pronounce him free before he considered himself free again. In other capture situations he broke out as he considered himself a captive or prisoner being treated like a slave and not actually a slave. In the others, he considered himself legally a slave. This is the Gorean mindset from the books. Pay attention to the details...they are important.

In Tarl's case he also dealt with a number of women in quasi-slave situations and mentioned others. There were some women he just held as captives. They were not enslaved immediately nor did he treat them as he did those he immediately and legally enslaved. There was at least one who was treated as a slave but technically was not. She was called a fully submitted captive. He used that status to enslave and train her as a slave even tho she was technically free. There were some women who were in a chattel status due to debts in a tavern and were treated much like a slave until they worked off their debts.

Norman also mentioned free women who would either go to a slave house to experience what it was like to be a slave or who would contract with me to be their slave in private. Some free companions also acted at times as a slave to their companion even tho legally they were free. I have often thought that in many ways, consensual slavery here on Earth is most like the free women who would contract with someone to be their slave for either a period of time or with certain limitations. Norman did point out that when those contracts ended, some women were then enslaved and not freed per the contract but he implied that most men honored the contract. So yes, a contracted part time slave is a Gorean concept from the books.

In a number of places in the books, captives were treated as if they were a slave before being formally enslaved. This could be for several days, weeks or even months. It seems that in some cases, Goreans set great store and importance on the legal forms being met. In others, they didn't bother. The latter was mostly in war. I think it was partially situational and partially cultural. Some cites and areas just did things differently from others. This is one of the reasons why there both is and is not One True Way for Goreans in the books. There is closer to one offline as we have, over the years, come to accept certain things as being the norms for those who call themselves Gorean. Yes, some of those things are not and never were in the books. They have become, however, a part of OUR Gorean culture.

Keep going folks, this has been an interesting read so far.

Be well all....

Malkinius


_____________________________

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http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: An Outsider's Question - 4/1/2010 6:35:28 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

No matter how black and white, or how grey you present the situation, the woman, and her relationship with men, if relates to him and herself according to what her own nature dictates, the opinions of others about her, her nature, and their relationship, really will not matter.


Greetings,
   IMO, it would not be a matter, so much of what or how other people may think of her, more then it would be about just being plain honest...with herself first and with those around her and whom she chooses to associate with, whether they be in her off line personal life OR her associations here on line.

If one can lie so easy peasy online, then it would not be far fetched to believe they can and would lie off line, imo anyways.

So it really comes down to an individuals character. Do they have the character, stamina and honor to be honest with themselves first and foremost, and then to those around her, or does she prefer to live a lie within her own heart and mind, thus making who and what she represents to everyone around her a lie as well?

Most people I know and associate with now and in my life as a whole, prefer to be honest on both accounts no matter what kind of reaction that truth may bring forth from people around them, many however are the opposite unfortunately and lie in fear of being shunned or spoke of in an ill mannor thus not being accepted. It is a sad reason though true and unfortunate.

IMO, one needs to be honest with themselves and those around them, at any cost, if they have come to know the truth about themselves and that does not always happen right away, either...but it eventually does happen and when it does, it should never be held back and kept secret.

anyways, hope that helped.

Mistress Maahsatti


_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: An Outsider's Question - 4/2/2010 8:08:48 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Lady Pact, I would be amazed if John Norman didn’t have specific people in mind when he wrote his novels, one book in particular Prize of Gor takes an extreme feminist lecturer and restores her youth making her into a slave, this is all done simply for revenge. In other stories he talks of free women who try to contract a companionship but their terms are so one sided that they fail and are baffled as to why this keeps happening.

I know I look at the books differently to the majority of those reading them, I am less interested in the superficialities of the story and more as to the why he wrote it and what was his purpose, very difficult to ascertain as Norman won’t talk about that, so we can only speculate. All we know for sure is that he wrote them as adult books, adult as in layers of meaning and philosophies, classical themes to be discovered, satire and metaphor to be worked out rather than adult as sexual.

However considering he was on campus at a time of sexual revolution, with experiments in many types of free love, marriage and polygamous relationships because of the pill on one side, and the burn your bra, and men should be locked up as animals feminists on the other, he was at the perfect place to see the distinct changes in society happening at the time.

When you just look at an area such as female slave V female free you have many layers alone.

Master V slave morality.
Freedom from society’s dictates V being enslaved by societies expectations and customs.
Sexual freedom V sexual repression.
Madonna V whore.

Then you can add were slaves supposed to equal the happy sexually liberated campus women and the free women the feminists? Or even were the slaves happily married women V the feminists, after all if slavery equated marriage it would make for a few chuckles imagining all those happily married women running around half naked begging their husbands to rape and oppress them with orgasms.

And probably more questions I have either forgotten or haven’t thought of yet, each one a distinct subject and all equally valid.

When you add a lifestyle that was never intended, though should have been considered as a possibility you have even more layers to add, including the ever controversial one of just how many so called consensual slaves really would give up their freedom if slavery became legal. Most admit fast they like the illusion of slavery and the actuality of freedom.

Cheryl



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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: An Outsider's Question - 4/3/2010 5:42:03 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 16506
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

-FR-

This is one thing that has always bothered me - a man can give into his natural desire to have his lust sated, and his freedom is not questioned, in fact it would be laughable to say that Gor expects men to stifle their natural sexuality for social convention...he's not expected to prove he deserves his freedom by restraining all public displays of sexuality or desire, yet for a woman, if she were to give into her natural desire and have her lust sated, her own lack of desire to stifle herself would mean she is not fit to be free.



Hi Bella,

Ding ding ding. I agree with this. It has puzzled me, too. How is pretending to not be sexual being Free? May be fodder for another thread, but I think it's a fair point. Many of the most self-determining women I know are absolutely full of and expressive of their passion.

I'm thinking Cher right now.

Best,
sunshine

_____________________________

¿me preguntas por que compro arroz y flores? compro arroz para vivir y flores para tener algo por lo que vivir.
~Confucio

Yes, I am a wonton hussy.

Head Hib Harem Hottie

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: An Outsider's Question - 4/3/2010 7:18:00 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		~FR~

It's long been my opinion that there are actually 3 female achetypes presented in the novels:

1) the ignorant free woman, who refuses to know herself, explore her nature or her sexuality, & hates those who dare to do what she fears to attempt. This sort of female figures regularly in the novels being stripped of her ignorance.

2) the slavegirl, eagerly embracing the helplessness of her ignited sexuality & soft receptivity to the male counterpart nature has provided, discovering depths of unconditional love & devotion previously unknown to her.

3) the enlightened female, secure in her place, her self, & her relations with others. This female is often, in the books, depicted as a slave, but not "always". Consider Lara of Tharna (after being put BACK on her throne), Verna, the 'Ubara of Ar' wandering the Northern Forests, even Phyllis & Virginia freed to become Companions of their former masters.

While many may not agree, I see this as a progression towards a personal sort of excellence -- a feminine eudaimonia.

YMMV

~K

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: An Outsider's Question - 4/3/2010 8:14:48 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16602
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		~FR~

I don't want to get into another debate about free women.

But Kimveri is right in the essence of her post--if one is to live the philosophy of Gor, vs. blindly copying what one sees in the books, the point is self-knowledge, self-awareness, and honesty to self in thought and action.

From that foundation flows a better society and happier, more fulfilled and meaningful lives.

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: An Outsider's Question - 4/3/2010 9:06:57 PM   
Unbuilder


Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline 		Good Evening LP

I dunno if I can answer any of your questions, I suspect that the best I can do is get you pointed in the direction of where I see the answers, and let you decide for yourself what the truth is.

For starters... turn off your computer, and go sit in front of a window... or better yet, outdoors,  weather permitting. 

Being Gorean is about being natural, about being attuned to the natural world and whatever position the individual has earned in that natural world.

There are no artificial  boundaries based on gender, or some self declared status, or even some assigned status ... there is only that which is *natural*

For those with enquiring minds who can't imagine where the fuck I came up with this post.... well... I read thru most of this thread, then I went out to the patio to have a smoke and think about it... while I was there I observed several birds foraging.  they were all of the same species.... Desert Grackles I think...of which at least one was a male.  The reason I say that is ... well... it's spring, and the one male was putting on an impressive display of feather puffing and strutting toward each female that came within a yard or so... although he created an appearance of being at least twice his size, none of the females that I observed... seemed impressed.

In retrospect... I dunno if this is going to answer your questions, but it all somehow seemed relevant to me.  If you really want to know about Goreans, don't ask questions of people who have their own agenda's to pursue (and a million ways to trying to make their agendas look like it fits in with your agenda),  look out your window and observe what the critters who don't have that sophistication are doing.

They are surviving, in spite of what humans are doing to make them go away, they are hanging in there. I don't think that nature is going to allow itself to be defined.

How I arrived at this post, based on that observation, without the assistance of mind altering drugs, seems irrational even to me.  There must be a overriding truth that I don't understand and/or can't wrap my brain around.  I should perhaps think about stuff more.

Have a good night, and a great day tomorrow.

Unbuilder



_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: An Outsider's Question - 4/4/2010 8:00:36 AM   
Dangruscurvz


Posts: 27
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Hello Lady Pact -

Well you certainly have stirred up a lively topic!

Nothing gets the collective panties in a twist faster than the FreeWoman-GoreanFW-slave-kajira-which-is-what-and-how-do-I-recognize-it-when-I-see-it question.

Here's a little piece I wrote back in 2002 in a discussion on the very same topic:

quote:

As for the image of FW being meek and obedient, well... in the years I've been interacting with Gorean men, I have been called many things, but not once "meek or obedient."  It's not easy to hold your own among such strong men while still maintaining your femininity. If you are prone to "foot in mouth disease," as I am, sometimes restraining the urge to say "You really are a Dumbass" is paramount to trying to contain a bomb in a paper bag. I think, though that most men who know me have learned over the years that if they are not prepared to hear my honest (blunt) opinion, then they shouldn't ask. While I often defer to those who are stronger than myself, I won't pretend a man is stronger than he actually is. To me, that would be dishonest. We don't live on Gor, and I am in no imminent danger of him clubbing me over the head and carrying me off in chains. This doesn't mean that I don't make every effort to be polite, but I stand my ground when I believe I am right, and when pushed, I don't hesitate to "take the gloves off."

I refuse to pretend I am less of a person to make someone feel more like a man.

I think there are two different theories at work here. The natural order states that while males are predominantly more suited to be dominant, and females more inclined to be submissive, the reality of power is that not "all" men are stronger than "all" women. Each, male or female, will "naturally" dominate those weaker than themselves and "naturally" defer to those stronger. Finding one's one place on that ladder of power is a large part of what this journey is all about.



I wish you well in your quest for enlightenment.

~Dangrus

"The journey is more important than the destination."

http://dangrus.blogspot.com/

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: An Outsider's Question - 4/20/2010 8:27:47 PM   
serenitysdream


Posts: 12
Joined: 2/28/2010
Status: offline 		Any Gorean Woman who is Free is Free at the will of the Free Men in her life. Even Born Free women are not guaranteed to remain free. and just be cause a slave is uncollared dosen't make her free. she has to be given her Freedom by a Free person. But again it is not absolute. Any Free woman can be enslaved by a Free Man at anytime for any or no reason ( depending on the home some state there has to be a reason).

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: An Outsider's Question - 4/21/2010 4:17:23 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1711
Status: offline 		Hello serenitysdream,

Or maybe I should make this a post to the men, and ask them to slap a collar around your neck.  Since you declare you are free, and that ANY man at ANY time can collar a free woman for ANY reason, or no reason at all.    So how would that work for you?  If some man on these boards that posts here, that is recognized as a Gorean man, were to make a post saying...you are now collared.  And if he told you to shut up, to quit making posts would that work?

Quite frankly, all the posts I have read from you are about on line role play;  read the TOS - Terms of Service - Collar Me is about discussing living your life, this section Gorean,  other sections BDSM, Leather, Poly, etc.   But it is NOT  about on line.   While I am sure there are many venues that promote role play, but to my knowledge this is not one of them.

Be well,

ElizabethAnne

(in reply to serenitysdream)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: An Outsider's Question - 4/21/2010 4:18:16 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		serenitysdream,

Its time to step away from the plots and happenings in the books and recognize that being Gorean has nothing to do with roleplaying.

YES, if a Man decides to release a woman from his collar and he no longer holds her in slavery and she is no longer mastered -- SHE IS FREE. That is THE ACTUALITY. I know you are looking for online only, but seriously i think yo may be bettered served with that in chatrooms because that is where they roleplay the books. Sorry but offline, women don't run around pretending to be Gorean slaves when a Man releases them (though they do so online), what they do offline is utilize their autonomy and their self-determination in their lives and live as a Free woman. Msybe not necessarily a Gorean one that is a choice they need to make.

A woman can remain free simply by walking away from a Man who wishes to enslave her (and by enslave we do not mean bashing her on the head and declaring she is a slave). If a Man isn't strong enough to master a woman into being his slave, he cannot just "enslave" her by declaring. THAT is the ACTUALITY. You are speaking of the happenings in the books and are trying to indicate that they are what it is. Its simply NOT true in living Gorean. Yes some men are strong enough to master a woman and many do and a Free woman than becomes a slave if he determines it, but MOST men are not able to do so.

As i said, since you are looking for roleplaying online, the chatrooms will better serve you than a board that discusses the actuality of LIVING Gorean - not roleplaying it.

angel



_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to serenitysdream)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: An Outsider's Question - 4/21/2010 4:20:41 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Hey Liz, if she claims to be a slave or if she is collared if she is not, technically can't any Gorean Free tell her that and she will obey and never allow her fingers to post again?

serenitysdream, do you see why trying to roleplay is not condusive to the actuality? There are a lot of roleplaying concepts in the books. Or are you willing to be collared by some online nickname and told never to post again because he declared you a Gorean slave? And it doesn't matter you want a WOMAN, that's not how Gor works in the books, you are collared usually by Men and you don't get to choose.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 4/21/2010 4:30:18 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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Profile   Post #: 78
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