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Questions and thoughts generated from recent threads... - 4/10/2010 6:01:27 PM   
eponavet


Posts: 406
Joined: 8/18/2006
Status: offline 		Hi everyone,

I was reading the congratulations to jakeskajira thread and as the topic tangentially moved into the philosophical realm, it got me thinking. I know there may not be a consenus to my inquiry, but still, it's been on my mind, so i thought i'd throw it out there....

I've only read the first 5 books, so others here can probably use excerpts to clarify some of my questions as well as personal opinions, but what got me thinking was the idea of not only a slave having a child and then the status of that child, but more realistically in my mind, the variances that occur in life and how that would impact not only one's decisions, but the reality that life doesn't always conform with ANY philosophy 100%.

The scenario that has been on my mind is a fairly common one in society in general, so extrapolating to those who are Gorean doesn't seem like a stretch. Infertility as it pertains to the Free. If there is a healthy, happy, functioning FC and those 2 people have tried, unsuccessfully, to have a child and want to raise that child with the values they are most comfortable with (in this case, with Gorean ideals), there are generally 2 possibilities if the infertility problem lies with the woman. Adoption or surrogates. If the man in question wants to propagate his genes, and the couple chooses a surrogate, would their slave be a viable option? I'm thinking that a slave would be an acceptable vessel if the couple could afford fertility treatments and if the FW had viable eggs and responded to the fertility treatments. If she did not, what option would be best for you? Is the slave a viable vessel for the man's child, if his FC is unable to have a child with him? If the man is still the determining party in the FC, or if the companions decide together that they want to propagate his genes, would there be a conflict with having the slave being the one who contributed the other genes to the offspring? How about the man who wants to propagate his genes but has chosen to master his woman so that there is no FC. If there is a difference in your response to the two scenarios, could you clarify for me so i can better understand the underlying issue of a man's will as it pertains to his offspring, not just the women in his life.

If the man is the determining party and his will is to have a child of his own, and HE decides that the slave is a viable vessel, and HE decides that the child will be raised with the values and ideals of the FREE, it is as simple as just doing that? Or does the philosophy in the books preclude that as an option for those who call themselves Gorean. If it does, can you expand of the philosophical reasons why - not just that the slaves on Gor were given a concoction (slave wine) so that they (the people on Gor, in the books) didn't have to mull these things over. The underlying reasons...

I understand that the comments made about slaves having children and the hints or direct statements that this was contrary to some (i'm not sure if all...) Goreans' life choices were in response to the specific scenario that was posted. My thoughts went from there....

I know that the books reflect philosophical ideas that resonate with some people, that the books are generally not the ONLY factor in determining one's path and choices. I'm not sure if this is addressed in the books to a degree that it has a substantial consensus...so if anyone wants to help me understand more, that would be great!

~ epona

< Message edited by eponavet -- 4/10/2010 6:02:29 PM >

_____________________________

~ You are a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here, and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should ~

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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/10/2010 8:04:22 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline 		Hi epona,

To answer your question, I think you need to make the distinction between slavery in the social sense (as it was in the books) and mastery of the female, as if the Gorean philosophical ideal.
The Gorean philosophy puts forward that most (or at least a lot of) women are happiest in their relationships with men if the man is able to master her. That doesn't mean that the man actually has to master her to the degree that she becomes his abject slave, but that he must be capable of doing so. Capable of being her leader.
To explain this idea, Norman used a hypothetical setting of social legal slavery.

Now I believe that Norman's actual point was the philosophical one, and that that is what he means with statements like "in every woman there is a slave girl and a Free Companion." He is alluding to the fact that women generally look for leaders in their personal relationships with men.

Considering that the philosophical point is really what we try to live by here on Earth, not the hypothetical social one, social customs of how people dealt with slaves on Gor are really mute on Earth.
As long as the underlying principle that women tend to look for leaders, is accepted, and embraced, the actual details of their relationship together is at the couple's (or often the man's) discretion.

Slavery, like it is on Gor, doesn't exist on Earth. As such, the children of a kajira cannot ever be slaves. Instead, what men practice here is mastery, even if they sometimes call it slavery.
As such, in order to call a person a "slave" or a "kajira" or "mastered woman", the person has to actually be, well... mastered.
If a child is born from a person who is mastered, the child itself is not mastered and is thus not a "slave" or a "kajira" or a "mastered woman." They are thus, according to the philosophy we follow, by definition not slaves. (On may argue if they are Free, because it is generally accepted that in order to be Free, one needs to have self-determination, and does or doesn't a child have self-determination yet? And at what age? And what about the parent's influence?)

On Gor itself, a man would never have a slave bear his children, and I thus do believe that a couple would never choose a slave to carry their child.
Yet on Earth, a man practicing the Gorean ideals here on Earth can choose to have children with a woman he is actively mastering, and a couple can choose a mastered woman to be a bearer of their child.
However, if you would go so far as to accept that it is the philosophical ideals that matter, not the hypothetical social customs, then why would you insist on holding on to the fictive social custom of legal slavery and insist that the woman bearing your child is your slave (which she is technically, legally not). Why not call her what she is: a mastered woman, or better yet "my woman".

The upholding of some fictive social customs while discarding the others has never made sense to me.

I wish you well,

ishy
 

< Message edited by ishyB -- 4/10/2010 8:10:20 PM >

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to eponavet)
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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/10/2010 8:27:15 PM   
eponavet


Posts: 406
Joined: 8/18/2006
Status: offline 		Hi ishy,

I understand what you are saying for sure, but what sparked my thoughts were the comments about the baby kajira on the way, as well as the inference that it is inappropriate for a slave (here, on earth...or the mastered woman as you describe) to have a baby in the first place. Those are the things that got me thinking about how people take the words written in the books, the metaphorical scenarios and philosophical pretenses, and apply them to their actual lives here.

Thanks though for your post. As always, you are very articulate and heplful in explaining things!

~ epona

< Message edited by eponavet -- 4/10/2010 8:28:42 PM >

_____________________________

~ You are a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here, and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should ~


(in reply to ishyB)
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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/10/2010 8:33:24 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		By the books a slave could be bred at her owner’s request, she was usually hooded so she didn’t see the father and once the child was born she never saw the child again. What happened to that child was again the owner’s choice. It is believed that Hup the fool had a child by a hooded slave it appears the child was bought up as free, though not confirmed and the child became rather famous.

However this is Earth not Gor, and slavery in the US and UK is illegal, so technically two free people are choosing to have a child, by whatever way they see as fit. Personally I think these sort of discussions are stupid and entering the realms of fantasy. It is a slavery simulation and the simulation can be as realistic or as tenuous as the two involved choose, and no matter how you word it they both choose constantly to continue a consensual relationship. The woman may call herself a slave but there is no legal basis for it and no real way to enforce it other that the ability and desire of those involved.

The parents are legally free, the child is legally free, any surrogate they chose or don’t choose including sperm from a donor is free, and it is only the parents who can choose what way works for them. Though I do have doubts about celebrities who seem to want to collect a “stable” of international adopted children, I want one dark, one coffee coloured, one white, and maybe a yellow ... hummm any green or blue ones around this year?

A child is both a blessing and a pain in the butt as any parent will tell you, and as long as they are good parents and do the best for the child how they achieve or what they choose to call themselves is their choice.

Cheryl

(in reply to ishyB)
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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/10/2010 8:36:22 PM   
eponavet


Posts: 406
Joined: 8/18/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

Hi epona,

Considering that the philosophical point is really what we try to live by here on Earth, not the hypothetical social one, social customs of how people dealt with slaves on Gor are really mute on Earth.

On Gor itself, a man would never have a slave bear his children, and I thus do believe that a couple would never choose a slave to carry their child.
Yet on Earth, a man practicing the Gorean ideals here on Earth can choose to have children with a woman he is actively mastering, and a couple can choose a mastered woman to be a bearer of their child.
However, if you would go so far as to accept that it is the philosophical ideals that matter, not the hypothetical social customs, then why would you insist on holding on to the fictive social custom of legal slavery and insist that the woman bearing your child is your slave (which she is technically, legally not). Why not call her what she is: a mastered woman, or better yet "my woman".

The upholding of some fictive social customs while discarding the others has never made sense to me.

I wish you well,

ishy
 



This part of your post was very helpful, but it does seem, to some of us still becoming familiar with these things, like a lot of what makes someone Gorean IS adhering to much of what was written. Now, that is coming from a limited experience, but if this forum is a place where people are NOT role playing and such, why use terms like Tal, slave or even kajira? It seems like there are a ton of threads about the societal and metaphorical details in the books (especially as it pertains to slaves) as compared to the extrapolation of those philosophical details into every day living.

Thanks ishy!

~ epona

_____________________________

~ You are a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here, and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should ~


(in reply to ishyB)
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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/10/2010 8:45:11 PM   
eponavet


Posts: 406
Joined: 8/18/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

However this is Earth not Gor, and slavery in the US and UK is illegal, so technically two free people are choosing to have a child, by whatever way they see as fit. Personally I think these sort of discussions are stupid and entering the realms of fantasy. It is a slavery simulation and the simulation can be as realistic or as tenuous as the two involved choose, and no matter how you word it they both choose constantly to continue a consensual relationship. The woman may call herself a slave but there is no legal basis for it and no real way to enforce it other that the ability and desire of those involved.

The parents are legally free, the child is legally free, any surrogate they chose or don’t choose including sperm from a donor is free, and it is only the parents who can choose what way works for them. Though I do have doubts about celebrities who seem to want to collect a “stable” of international adopted children, I want one dark, one coffee coloured, one white, and maybe a yellow ... hummm any green or blue ones around this year?

A child is both a blessing and a pain in the butt as any parent will tell you, and as long as they are good parents and do the best for the child how they achieve or what they choose to call themselves is their choice.

Cheryl



Hi Cheryl,

I think it's interesting that you refer to these discussions as stupid fantasy, but what sparked my interest was reading about people referring to a baby of a couple here - on Earth - as a baby kajira...as well as implying that it's inappropriate for a slave to have a baby. That seems to portray a philosophy that does embrace the fantasy written in these books. Which i was under the impression was NOT the case...So i asked for clarification since i've gotten conflicting ideas from reading the forums.

I'm not sure that i think it's stupid to want to get more information, especially if the information is ellicited from those who are practicing this philosophy.

Thanks.

~ epona

< Message edited by eponavet -- 4/10/2010 8:46:58 PM >

_____________________________

~ You are a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here, and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should ~


(in reply to Cherylmazana)
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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/10/2010 9:03:07 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

why use terms like Tal, slave or even kajira?


Hi epona,

Actually, I have no idea why anybody would use them besides ease of conversation (slave and kajira that is).
Sometimes it's convenient and faster to use words which are generally accepted to have a certain meaning instead of talking in long drawn out concepts (Lord knows my posts are long enough as it is.)
However, sometimes talking in shortcut words instead of concepts can complicate things as well, when different people use a specific term in a different way.

Master has been of the opinion for a long time that the word "slave" is such a word that creates more confusion than it has benefit, and should thus not be used.

I wish you well,

ishy
 


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to eponavet)
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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/11/2010 3:02:20 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		What is stupid is discussing if the child of a “slave” is free, that is pure fantasy. It should never need to be discussed the fact that it comes up every time a “slave” gets pregnant is proof to me that some people really need a reality dose in their lives. No one in a consensual relationship is a slave, they and their children are free that is a legal fact. But then again i forget that common sense isn’t very common.

No one should follow an imaginary culture to such an extent that this question even gets raised, the fact that it does is actually quite saddening. Slavery is illegal in our countries, that means no “slave” is actually enslaved therefore no child of a slave can be enslaved either.

Being Gorean is not about being so stupid you follow the culture of a civilisation that doesn’t actually exist when it involves anyone other than consenting adults.

Whether or not it is prudent to have children if you intend to be in a Gorean M/s relationship and how it can affect the child and dealings with child services is a totally different matter.

Cheryl

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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/11/2010 6:29:35 AM   
eponavet


Posts: 406
Joined: 8/18/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks Cheryl for the clarification. I've not been around this forum long enough to have seen this happen with other people and it was an aspect of discussion i hadn't expected.

~ epona

_____________________________

~ You are a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here, and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should ~


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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/11/2010 8:32:38 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1711
Status: offline 		Hiya Epona,

Maybe a question could be raised, who is better equipped to raise a child, a woman with a "slave" mind set, or a woman with a "free" mind set.   Or to use the terms, totally mastered woman versus a woman with personal determination.    In my mind, I don't see a totally mastered woman, that chooses to relinquish her autonomy, in a position to raise children that know how to be their own person.

Take care,

Elizabeth 

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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/11/2010 8:45:49 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16602
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Liz,

It simply makes that the master's responsibility to oversee--just as it usually has been for centuries until the late 20th century.

I actually know of one instance, though Old School, not Gorean--nittaa was from a M/s family, with 7 daughters. They knew their place, had their chores---discipline frankly not at all unsuited to raising reasonable children. Questions and issues were resolved by Father.

Today? Four own businesses. Two are dommes. Two are slaves.

Frankly, I think growing up in a Gorean household would do a child a world of good, and whether the woman is free or slave is simply how a man chooses to run his home.

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/11/2010 8:59:05 AM   
estah


Posts: 491
Joined: 5/2/2009
Status: offline 		Greetings Mistress ElizabethAnne,

I disagree with your view, but I can understand why a slave might walk away from raising her children. She is unable to take responsibility for her own live let alone for the lives of her children. I had a chance to go to a man who I was drawn to more then anyother has ever been able to do. I would have gone to the end of the world and back at his orders, but I had to walk away from that. And as a result there are times I have hated my children because I could not just up and leave, so that I might go to the feet of this man, but I was raised to take responsibility for my actions, in this case two children. I love them and they always come first. As a result I have made the call that I will not go to the feet of this man or any other because I could not serve him as he deserved and I have people who need me to be here. I wish I could walk away some days, but it was my actions (directly or indirectly) that resulted in children and now I have to make sure they are raised to be happy, healthy adults who contribute to society and to their family/ies. In the case of the youngest the father is a great person who I could trust to raise him well, but the father of the oldest is the complete opposite and as a result may not see the child for more then a few hours a week. This does not mean I was any less mastered then others who have left their children, I just decided differently.
I honestly believe that regardless of what cricumstances a child is born in, they are born free and as a result have to be brought up that way. I can only hope I can give my children the tools they need to be what they are inside. I can only teach and guide them so far and I hope I do the right thing by them. So far I am doing ok, my oldest (almost 8 years old) understands what it is to take responsibilities for his words and actions. And he is already learning what it means to stick to his principles. He believes that violence is the answer of an idiot (this seems to become refined as he gets older but the bases remains the same) and has often walked away from school yard 'friends' because they chose to act as bullies. I have heard from his school that he has even stood up to these people on the side of those being bullied. I know he was pushed and hit a number of times over a period of several days before he finally turned around and struck back at the child (the other child was two years older), up until this point he had walked away after expressing himself in a way that made it clear he did not like to be treated that way...at some point walking away and talking does not work anymore.
I am proud of my boys and how they are turning out.

*edited to add* I had to learn how to do all this, which meant going to classes and seeking help, I am far from perfect and I am still learning. But even a girl who is fully mastered can raise children, even if she has to learn to do it.

verity


< Message edited by estah -- 4/11/2010 9:02:08 AM >

_____________________________

It all comes down to choice...we chose how we see things...we chose what we say...what we do...we chose who we are.

Better a cold truth then a warm lie

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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/11/2010 10:25:50 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		estah, if a girl is mastered she has no self-determination due to his will and determinations are what guide her perception becuase of how she is held is not really of the world around her but is a slave's view of the world around her which has the go between of her Master to dilute much of that. By the very fact that you have "walked away" and made a determination "not to be at the feet of this guy" shows that your will and your autonomy to be free are in fact greater than his will to have you exist in his life by his determination. So no, you aren't a slave to him or mastered by him --- you are a woman who wishes to be it seems but your will to raise your children in the way you wish, is greater than your needs to be slave to a Man.

So no, you aren't mastered as a slave would be to a Man who has determined to own her. There is nothing wrong with that, you simply made a choice and your will to adhere to that choice is what keeps you free.

You don't live the life of a slave, you in fact live the life of a free woman who has her own autonomy and her self-determination. Your perception of the world around you is one of a free woman not a woman who is held by the will of another to his determinations in his life.

So while you may not be able to raise your children with the complete understanding of being Free because from what i am getting you really don't wish to be, you can raise them with the understandings of what it is to have their own autonomy and your self-determined beliefs of what things mean to you. So you are in fact a free woman, living as such, making determinations and such as a free person and your children are in fact probably benefiting from that. No matter how much a woman wants to be a slave, she doesn't lose her free perception until she actually lives as a slave and remains a slave, otherwise it is as you have stated -- she has no choice but to learn to exist and yes understand her life as a free person.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 4/11/2010 10:27:56 AM >

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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/11/2010 12:19:33 PM   
Koa


Posts: 283
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline 		I can tell you the social expectation according to the books, what might happen on Gor, and how people of earth who follow the Gorean society within the confines of local laws. In the books, if a slave has a child, the child is born into slavery but is treated as a Free person until a certain age, at that point they are enslaved. That is all that is mentioned in that books that I can recall about a slave giving birth to a free person. It is my opinion that the child is given a basic education and training that they would need to know to survive as adults. At what age would they be enslaved, I would like to believe after they visit the Sardar at least once, which has to be done by their early twenties. The actual age escapes me for the moment. Here on earth (people who chose to live their life as close to the Gorean lifestyle as legally possible,) a “Free” person might have a child with their “kajira”. Now since slavery is illegal, we as consenting adults get to choose this life. In most industrialized societies, a person is not an adult until they reach an age of 18 (in the U.S.). So in our society, the child would have the same right when they reach that age to choose whether or not to be a kajira but not before. To accomplish this within in Gor and Earth social expectations on earth, the kajira would be freed either for the duration of the pregnancy and until after the birth or freed just before the birth, hence the child would be born of a free woman and therefore be born free. The kajira then could at that point be re-enslaved.

_____________________________

Lo Koa Bosk

...but to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought.
(Marauders, p.7)

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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/11/2010 1:58:32 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

What is stupid is discussing if the child of a “slave” is free, that is pure fantasy. It should never need to be discussed the fact that it comes up every time a “slave” gets pregnant is proof to me that some people really need a reality dose in their lives. No one in a consensual relationship is a slave, they and their children are free that is a legal fact. But then again i forget that common sense isn’t very common.


To me, the question is less about whether the child is a slave than whether the mother is still a slave.

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/11/2010 8:29:55 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Elizabella, slavery is illegal last I heard.

The mother is free whether she wishes it or not, however she may be emotionally dependant on a particular man to such an extent that she is emotionally enslaved to him. Whether or not that makes her unfit to be a mother or not depends entirely on the woman and her relationship with the man.

I would much rather a slave who is in a good relationship and who has been ordered to do the best she can bring up children rather than a free woman who can’t stand kids had one because she doesn’t believe in abortion and who believes the best way to bring up children is to let the play station keep them quiet all night.

Cheryl

(in reply to Elisabella)
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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/12/2010 7:18:56 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1711
Status: offline 		Hi Cheryl,

I don't see it as a question of being unfit, it's more of a question of  better suited.  And I agree, it is or should be up to the man, the head of the household, in how his home is established, as Tim in his post pointed out.    I would further say, very few if any men hold their women in abject slavery as in the books.    I suspect most women who are enslaved, and have children do have some personal determination - at least on a basic level of taking care of the kids.   Which ties in with Elisabella's post, when is a slave no longer a slave?   Yes Cheryl, I understand the institution of slavery is illegal, so when I do use the word slave, I am well aware she IS indeed free.   The words we use have long been accepted with the understanding a slave is REALLY not a slave, but an enslaved woman, OR mastered woman who chooses her life accordingly.   Geeesh, these disclaimers get ridiculous at times.  It's like buying a new toaster with the warning label, this appliance may get hot when in use.

I happen to enjoy reading about how others think in the lifestyle, and usually don't find topics "stupid".  Over the years I have changed my stance on many things because of discussions.  I guess it really just takes an open mind to explore others view points.

Take care,

Elizabeth

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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/12/2010 1:20:16 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings,

I think a lot depends on if the child you have is a boy or a girl. I don't think I am a bad mom but I have realized that I am our daughters example so what she sees is a woman who constantly defers to her father, who goes to him to make decisions and who waits on him hand and foot. I realized that I had her bringing him his glasses of iced tea since she could walk and she would get tons of positive reinforcement from me over that and things of that nature. I try to balance that now with giving her choices and praising her for making her own decisions.

I know that when she gets older I will have to explain that her father is a special kind of man and only special kinds of men get treated that way. I worry about the potential for her to end up in an abusive situation. I look forward to when Masters Free Woman lives here full time so she will have a different example to emulate.

I also realize that she is (half) Masters child too so as she matures she might develop a mindset completely different than mine. As parents we all just do our best in raising our children for their health and happiness.

well wishes
kisshou

PS I would like to thank Mistress Kimveri, it was due to some very insightful discussions with her that made me realize so many things and made me a better parent.

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
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RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/14/2010 8:39:45 AM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		(FR)

Who is better suited to raise a child, a free person or slave.

I often laugh when I read this question.  Then again I suspect the direction of this question would be based on the answering persons point of view on the matter.

Ok here is mine.

Goreans didn’t create the notion of free and slave nor wrote the book on it’s only true application.  Goreans do though try to explain the concepts as it applies to a literal institution and a philosophical opinion.   Goreans often intermix two concepts into one.  The legal institution as found in the series and the philosophical opinion as also found in the series.  Understanding the literal practice of the institution is pretty cut and dry, you are slave or free based on whether your enslaved or not.  Simple.

The philosophical understanding of these two concepts are more broad based.  People are either free or slave in personality and or spirit.  I tend to see slave equates to a personality of someone who can not or will not control their own lives, by some here.  As if they are so incapable as an adult they just have to have someone tell them when to take a pee and when to eat, as if they were small children, and because of this, they are not fit to be parents.  Is that all a slave is?  No.  Not even by book standard.

Millions of slave like people over time and place have successfully raised families.  Millions, men and women.  Being slave and or slave like is a far cry from being of the same mentality of a two year old which is what many of you seem to allude to.  This is to Elizabeth, it wasn’t so long ago women by law had no autonomy and were more slave then anything else in Western society and they happen to be your grand mothers, great grand mothers etc.  Obviously they had success.  This puts a damper on the opinion you offered or at the very least adds an element worth to consider.  Other elements to consider, even the bible lists examples of slaves bearing surrogate children for their owners, does the story of Sarah and Abraham come to mind?  A rather common practice in that time period I must add.  Certainly such a practice today can happen, though with a myriad of legal considerations and pit falls for sure.  There are also the millions of philosophical slaves in and out of the Gorean community who have/are and will raise families.

Honestly folks this topic should not be viewed in the tiny world  of just Gorean because the philosophical meanings extend past our tiny community.  What you say here must pass the litmus test of human practice not just Gorean, as the Gorean philosophy is about humanity as a species, a whole.

Can a given slave be unfit, a, just as much as a given so called free person.   Heck two free persons can end up raising a slave like person.  Two slave like people can end up raising a free person.  How a child came into the world only is a part of the whole picture, who that child is as a human being I think plays a more important role.  How they are raised certainly does play another role but people have been known to step out of a box created for them too.

Jahna


_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Questions and thoughts generated from recent thread... - 4/14/2010 6:51:06 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Hello, folks,

Hey, kisshou darlin'!

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
I would like to thank Mistress Kimveri, it was due to some very insightful discussions with her that made me realize so many things and made me a better parent.


Thank you very much! That is, ultimately, the actual goal -- being BETTER than we were...a better mate, a better citizen, a better mother, father, daughter, brother.... person.

As a parent (or provider of any sort) we should be seeking to benefit those for whom we are responsible (& that includes ourselves). One of the best ways to do that is by example. In a perfect world, where "millions" have been flawless examples, there's no need to provide a "better" example -- there's "MILLIONS" of perfect ones all around, right? ;-D

Except we don't live in such a world. I look around, on the news or in the street, & I do not see "millions" of flawless examples of free, natural, fulfilled, excellent & happy people. I do NOT trust the general masses to provide complementary & potentially beneficial examples to my own child, nor to the children of ANY of my friends.

So, I always urge my friends with children to do the hard work, make that extra effort, to find excellent examples that complement their own, for the benefit of their children, as well as themselves.  This can take pressure off the individual parents, off the children, off the surrounding social network. It broadens the possibilities, for everyone. It fosters choice, which is, after all the wishful thinking & high-falutin' language is tossed aside, the only RIGHT that's 'inalienable'. Learning to exercise it is always a good thing. Having a plentitude of positive, beneficial options can't hurt, either.

Sadly, lots of folks think in black & white -- restricting themselves to boxes....or to NO boxes...I prefer to keep ALL the options open & I encourage that perspective in people I like, love or provide for....

...I feel it's my responsibility. ;-D

Please, pass along my regards to your master & call soon!

Wishing you the best,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 20
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