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RE: pregnant slaves? - 5/6/2010 3:44:01 AM

Cherylmazana

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I suppose it depends on how you look at the word mastered, I often think that being a good companion/wife is often confused with being submissive or mastered, especially if BDSM is involved in some way.

For example my husband mastered me years ago without me knowing it, he knows my reactions, how I react to stress, what makes me happy etc, he can play my emotions like a fiddle if he wants to.

In the same way a swordsman knows his sword, he knows the best way to handle it and what is its breaking point, he may have mastery of the sword but the sword does not see him as its master.

However my husband is not my master and I suspect that any attempt to enslave me would end badly and in a divorce court.

The problem with such slippery words is that first you have to define the terms and have them in a glossary that everyone can see and agree upon, until you do that then there will be confusion.

Cheryl

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RE: pregnant slaves? - 5/6/2010 5:20:28 AM

xBullx

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Hello again girlie,

As usual, ishy did a good job explaining things. But just so you understand, when a "Gorean" man holds a woman in one capacity or another it is usually because he recognizes in her that she is best suited as kajira or free. The books are filled with examples of men evaluating just such conditions, not always, but usually.

It may be that a woman is best suited as a kajira yet better suited as another man's kajira, she will then be sold, or for us outside of the books, released to find her master, some men help find the man for the girl. Some men find the right wench and keep her as such. Some men don't want a kajira, some men don't want a free woman. Some men only want a paga slut for the night.

Are you starting to see the pattern here? Lots of people, in particular the men that are responsible for the patriarcle society are being true to nature's callings and not perverting individual truths for political, social or industrial convenience.

It's not all on the girl to discover the kajira, as many seem to assume, if it were where would be the mastery in that.

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Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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Post #: 102

RE: pregnant slaves? - 5/6/2010 5:42:30 AM

estah

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Greetings Master Bull and ishy,

Thank you for the food for thoughts.

estah

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Post #: 103

RE: pregnant slaves? - 5/6/2010 5:49:11 AM

starshineowned

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quote:

For example my husband mastered me years ago without me knowing it, he knows my reactions, how I react to stress, what makes me happy etc, he can play my emotions like a fiddle if he wants to.

Greetings Mistress...

Does this same example of "Mastery" not also apply to the woman about the man she is with though? Does she not also know and learn these things about him? If that is the case, and I can't see how it wouldn't be...wouldn't that then be a situation where people would look upon the man as being weak if the women were able to hold and wield such upon him? That is how I would view it if looking from the outside but then that leads to the flip side which would then also apply to the woman being seen as weak, and such is professed as not being the case for either a FW or a slave.

That drive with Master to take charge..intentionally try to manipulate him to get my way just isn't there. It persay isn't something that he himself negates with his Mastery of me..having that type of need to get my way over his just isn't there. I don't want it..never did with any man. I was just lucky enough finally to find a man that recognized I wasn't seeking equality in all things or wearing of his pants, and that he himself wasn't seeking a female that desired such. Not sure anymore that is just isn't a case for me that I was more comfortable and natural on my knee's and he was a man more comfortable with having his women there, and not so much a case of him having to find a way to put me there or continually keep me there through Mastery.

I'm just not seeing a real applicable relation to the use of Mastery applied to a FW or Companion. Understanding of and acceptance of nature of Man and woman with embracement yes..but Mastery just seems a term solely fitting for a Master over a slave.

starshine

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Post #: 104

RE: pregnant slaves? - 5/6/2010 7:20:42 AM

Cherylmazana

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Hi starshine, I suppose the difference is that I honestly don’t care if either my husband or I am perceived to be weak by others, no one is strong all the time, I lean on him at times and there have been times when he needs my strength to get him through. I have often thought that this fear of being seen as weak is in itself a huge weakness as no one is strong all the time, and its often people who believe that showing weakness is wrong who often have breakdowns when their mind and body shows that they are not superman/woman and they have driven themselves past where they can cope.

Gorean’s are not afraid to cry says the books, but it’s rare that anyone really looks at what that means as a culture, the strength to allow yourself to be weak maybe?

You see mastery on one level only the mastery of a slave, I see mastery as a man mastering all aspects of his life, a man who masters himself, if then he chooses to master another person that’s fine, but without self mastery first the rest will never fully materialise. Its only when you know something fully you can be said to have mastered it, and even then there is often much more to learn.

As to the manipulation it depends again what you mean by manipulation, personally I believe that everyone manipulates everyone else all of the time, most of the time without even realising it. Women are taught to unconsciously manipulate men simply by watching their parents, if that’s a good or bad thing then depends on what the manipulation is used for and how it’s used. Children manipulate their parents from the moment they are born, it’s an instinctive drive that is shown in many ways and we all do it.

Cheryl

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Post #: 105

RE: pregnant slaves? - 5/6/2010 7:21:43 AM

xBullx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

having that type of need to get my way over his just isn't there. I don't want it..never did with any man.

Sort of like you don't have the need to impress upon or win your point in this discussion?

quote:

I'm just not seeing a real applicable relation to the use of Mastery applied to a FW or Companion. Understanding of and acceptance of nature of Man and woman with embracement yes..but Mastery just seems a term solely fitting for a Master over a slave.

Imagine a man's mastery to be a large cloud of red gas and each woman's need for this mastery that will complete her, as a woman, to be a container that holds this gas.

A very small number of women have rather extremely small or no container at all. Sucks to be them I always say.

Some women have very large containers, and possibly larger containers than are required to house the gas cloud of the average man. So of course there are those men, other than average, that emit extremely large and dense clouds of gas.

But it is my opinion that the average woman (which I believe even made up the majority of Gorean women in the books) will have, for the most part, a container just somewhat smaller than the average man's gas cloud. But to achieve personal natural balance this average woman will need a container or containers of varying sizes needing to be filled with some other gaseous substance to complete her as a woman, perhaps motherhood, career minded stuff or whatever, but she most likely won't be absolutely, one hundred percent about "serving" the man she loves. So in otherwords instead of being one large container she'll be made up of more than one container.

I hope you understand where this hopefully somewhat humorous analogy is going. It isn't my intent to be cryptic though sometimes I have a gift for such.

The fact is women are women, just as much as men are men. We're all different in various degrees but our nature when left unmanipulated runs rather consistant, most women just want a good man, and most men just want......hmmm, uh....good women. It's actually our personal internal impulses, governed by our individual and communal DNA that determines just what our own natual truth of self is.

It would seem you personally need a large gas cloud to infest your single container, for Cheryl it's the other example given. But in the end none of yours or her internal response is determined by external tertminoligy or social rules; these outside influences outside of the human equation simply make it easier or harder to achieve the absolute or not so absolute condition we should be hoping to arrive at.

It also bears mentioning that it seems (at least which is my theroy) these containers and gas cloud sizes are porportionately affected by each inididual encounter of various indivduals. For instance, I make ishy's container swell in size and capable of receiving the entirity of my gas cloud while if I were to might Jahnaca I'm assume her container would shrink significantly, at least I hope.

When these females encounter other men the opposite effect can and often does take place.

Anyway that's all I have time for right now, good luck to ya.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 5/6/2010 7:37:05 AM >

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Live well,

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I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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Post #: 106

RE: pregnant slaves? - 5/6/2010 7:53:56 AM

Cherylmazana

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Ok I am waiting for the sky to fall down, I seem to be agreeing with Bull a lot lately.

Cheryl

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RE: pregnant slaves? - 5/6/2010 8:09:57 AM

ishyB

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quote:

Does this same example of "Mastery" not also apply to the woman about the man she is with though? Does she not also know and learn these things about him? If that is the case, and I can't see how it wouldn't be...wouldn't that then be a situation where people would look upon the man as being weak if the women were able to hold and wield such upon him?

Mastery doesn't equal manipulation.
“Getting somebody to do what you want them” doesn't mean that you have mastered them. For mastery to be present, one has to be able to shape the reality and desire of the subject of said mastery.

Lets use an easy example:

At our house, Master rarely, if ever, gets his own drinks. That means that he can stand in the kitchen in front of the fridge with both me and Mistress in another room, and still holler out for either of us to come fix him a drink.
Now in my case, besides the mastery aspect coming into play there is also the slavery context which makes me fetch his drinks... I know that if I don't get his drinks, I'll be beat.
However, in Mistress' case, she is not held to such negative consequences because she is not a slave.
Technically, she's allowed and able to holler back at him: “Get your own damn drink!” If she would do that, nothing really would happen. Master wouldn't got fetch her and drag her off by the hair and make her fetch his drink like he would with me... at the most, he'd be irritated, if even that.

However, she will never tell him to get his own drink, because Master has shaped her desires in such a way that she is most happy when he is happy, even if it means rolling her eyes, dropping what she is doing, walking to him (still standing next to the fridge) and fetch him his drink.

Now reverse that situation, and imagine a context in which she would shape his desire in such a way that he would fetch her drinks.
That just wouldn't happen. It couldn't, because she doesn't master him.

However, there are situations imaginable in which she could manipulate him into fetching her drink. For example, by pretending to faint, or claiming that she hurt her leg and can't walk, or... well there aren't even very many example where I can imagine her being able to manipulate him into getting her a drink.
I can tell you that she would have a much better shot as simple, openly, asking him to get her a drink than be able to manipulate him into doing so. (And I really can't even imagine her asking him that, so I have no idea if he would or not if she did ask him.)
The main difference between all acts of manipulating and mastery is this though: manipulation is based on falsehood. It shapes somebodies desire to do something because a false reality is portrayed. If the person being manipulated would realize the true reality, they would no longer do what the manipulator is requiring of them.

With mastery, this doesn't apply.
When Master hollers out to fetch him a drink, Mistress is aware of the reality in which he is asking this of her, and yet, she will still happily oblige with his request. Because her reality -shaped by him- is that she is happiest when he's got his drink.

Other than that, please also take into account that Gorean men are notoriously hard to manipulate... I can attest that they are, I've tried.

I wish you well,

ishy

< Message edited by ishyB -- 5/6/2010 8:46:47 AM >

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Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

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RE: pregnant slaves? - 5/6/2010 9:35:33 AM

starshineowned

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quote:

However, she will never tell him to get his own drink, because Master has shaped her desires in such a way that she is most happy when he is happy, even if it means rolling her eyes, dropping what she is doing, walking to him (still standing next to the fridge) and fetch him his drink.

Just taking this portion ishyB. What your using as an example of Mastery..to me is nothing more than love between 2 people. Most couples I know desire their mates to be happy and will do things to try and make that happen even above themselves, and it has nothing to do with Mastery nor would such a term ever even be used by them to express that.

So how does all this really differ from a FW/Companion to a slave? Whats that differing drive? I'm sure you wish your Master to be happy at all times just as his FC does no? So where is the difference in what is needed between the 2? Why is the end desire the same by both..yet the paths to this are different? Would you be just as happy as your Masters FC as you are as his slave? If not..why?

starshine

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RE: pregnant slaves? - 5/6/2010 10:00:11 AM

ishyB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

What your using as an example of Mastery..to me is nothing more than love between 2 people. Most couples I know desire their mates to be happy and will do things to try and make that happen even above themselves, and it has nothing to do with Mastery nor would such a term ever even be used by them to express that.

If it's just love, than why wouldn't he ever get her a drink? I can assure you that he loves her.
If it's just love, then why would in so many vanilla relationships, the woman be furious if her partner would do such a thing? Don't those women don't love their man?
If it's just love, then why is it so easy to imagine Mistress being equally furious at such a request, IF she was in a relationship with a man that didn't master her?

Let me ask you this: I've given you my definition of what the difference is between mastery and manipulation, and all you've done is trow back at me that mastery has nothing to do with it. Clearly we are using a different definition for the term mastery, so would you please give me your definition of what mastery is?

I mean, seriously, what IS mastery to you? How does a man express it? What is needed for mastery to be in place?

quote:

ORIGINAL: starshineowned

So how does all this really differ from a FW/Companion to a slave? Whats that differing drive? I'm sure you wish your Master to be happy at all times just as his FC does no? So where is the difference in what is needed between the 2? Why is the end desire the same by both..yet the paths to this are different? Would you be just as happy as your Masters FC as you are as his slave? If not..why?

Why does there have to be such a huge difference between a FC and a slave? The clearly lined difference between them on Gor was a legal one, nothing more.
And even WITH that clearly defined legal line, the difference between then STILL got muddy sometimes.
There are examples of women in the books who were clearly mastered and yet, legally still Free Woman. There are examples in the books of women who were clearly legally enslaved, and yet remained "free".

The only difference I see between the two is a matter of degree (masted slave versus mastered Free Woman... talking about an internally free Free Woman, or an internally free slave is also just a matter of degree, just a different degree). The degree of their dependence on men that the woman is most comfortable with, and the degree of dependence on him that their man is most comfortable with.

You claim the paths are so different for both, but I really don't see that, not here on Earth, not within OUR social context.
Did you or did you not go out and find the Master most suited for you?
Did you or did you not go out and find a man whose "level of control he wants to have" is most comfortable to you?
Did you or did you not while finding him, turn down a gazillion of men as "unsuitable" because the level of control they wanted was either to low or to high for you to be comfortable with?
Did you or did you not go out and find a man who you don't HAVE to obey (seriously legally you don't and claiming otherwise is just nonsense) but who makes your DESIRE to obey him?
Would you be a slave to any man out there who claimed you as his?

Now, read that list again and tell me that MOST Free Women don't do the exact same thing.
The levels of control they are most comfortable with might be different then yours, and as such, they'll select a different man than you would... but in the end, they are still looking for the exact same thing as you were.

Also, consider this, really think about it...
Why do most men have a preference for either Free Women OR slaves?
Few men will ever desire to have both, and even fewer men ever desire to have both at the same time.
That's because a man has his own level of control that he's comfortable with, and will usually set out to select a female who desires that level.

Human nature is a matter of gradations.
If you put extremely submissive women on one end of the scale, and extremely dominant women on the other end of the scale, most women will still fall somewhere in the middle.
And no matter how hard you try... you will NEVER be able to draw a clear line between where submissiveness in women ends, and dominance in women begins.
Instead, all of them will have a little of both, and how much of each will determine which shade of the spectrum they are in. All of them will have a different shade of gray. You will never find a woman -or a man for that matter- who will be all black or all white, in all contexts with all people.

I wish you well,

ishy

< Message edited by ishyB -- 5/6/2010 10:15:43 AM >

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

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RE: pregnant slaves? - 5/6/2010 10:34:58 AM

ishyB

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Master suggested that I'd delete this post and start a new thread instead because we are getting too far off topic from the pregnancy thread.

I would appreciate it if any comments to my previous post would also be made on this new thread.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3194870/tm.htm

< Message edited by ishyB -- 5/6/2010 11:10:25 AM >

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

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RE: pregnant slaves? - 5/6/2010 11:17:15 AM

starshineowned

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quote:

Let me ask you this: I've given you my definition of what the difference is between mastery and manipulation, and all you've done is trow back at me that mastery has nothing to do with it. Clearly we are using a different definition for the term mastery, so would you please give me your definition of what mastery is?

Wow..little defensive there ishyB. How on earth was I throwing anything back at you when I've only responded 1 time to your post? You have given a difference of Mastery versus "conscious manipulation". If you read my initial post with this..I responded in the understanding of the Mistress's post. Playing her like a fiddle to me equates as manipulation..consciously. She helped clarify better how she wasn't seeing this or recognizing that when her husband can or does that in that light but rather Mastery.

The only thing I referred to when using the term manipulation was that I did not consciously and deliberately do that to achieve something nor do I want to or want a Man that would allow that. This did not say that I didn't manipulate or attempt to..just that it isn't conscious. So I am not sure where this big woohaw on that is coming about anyways.

Yes there is a difference between what I view as love between 2 people in terms of acts versus what you are using as Mastery. It apparently will stay that way and that is fine..mostly because I'm just not really seeing a use for the term of Mastery of a human over another beyond any context of simply desiring to know another fully and completely, and being so excited by that process that it is never ending do to human changes..but not in the context of altering their view of something..i.e. as in getting them to desire something they might not otherwise because that to me is manipulation regardless of methods used, and I view manipulation as good and bad based on the intent behind it.

Yes I did seek out and find a Man who wanted the control because this was comfortable to me. He was he, and I was me...no Mastery involved that I am aware of. Infact I am not even sure anymore that the term Mastery is really even applicable to us. From the onset ..he said..I did. Five years later he says..I do. I can't see how Mastery was present within the first few days, months but thats me. By the same token I can't see how love would cause that either within the first few days, months. I suppose it was nothing more than he was the right gas at the right amount for this container.

Sorry I'm not trying to alter anyones thoughts here. Think it just is more of a confirmation of us just being us, and no terms really needed.

starshine

Add: oops..was writing when you wrote that. :/

< Message edited by starshineowned -- 5/6/2010 11:18:07 AM >

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RE: pregnant slaves? - 5/6/2010 11:25:30 AM

ishyB

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Not being defensive, really.

I have a rather aggressive posting style sometimes, and English is my third language, so I'm not always in tune with all it's subtleties.
I really wasn't feeling defensive and I'm very sorry if it came across that way. I'm rather enjoying this debate and I hope you don't mind continuing it on the topic I started.

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

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Post #: 113