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What's on paper - 4/23/2010 8:20:49 AM

Jahnaca

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“It seems reasonable to me that thru logical debate and communal agreement a viable and credible Gorean culture will one day exist openly and be greatly respected here on good ole Terra firma, but we must stop perverting the tenants and diluting the meaningful ideals which separate and define us before we can actually stand on our own two feet as a culture.”

I quoted the above words of Bull because they are an excellent topic to discuss. I guess in a way we touch on it every time a question comes up, wether it’s what is a slave to what is a Home Stone and are we doing something illegal. Basically anything to do with Gor/Gorean brushes the topic above. Every once in a while we turn our attention to focus on where and who we are as a community now, and in the future.

What I find interesting is while Bull wasn’t using a script the words he spoke have been spoken over and over again by so many people it’s actually kind of scary (at times almost appears verbatim) . Obviously the idea is rather important to us as a community. Well it should be, it’s about each and every one of us.

The intent behind the following words is not about whose opinion is right or wrong, even if it’s right or wrong but rather a chance to look back and to the future. Sharing perhaps from our own perspective and experiences.

Without a doubt the Gorean community holds a common denominator, the series of books that has inspired all of us to do what ever it is we are doing. Throughout the years people have gleaned from the series a set way of doing things or thinking about things. We often state there is a philosophy found within it’s pages. We as a collective have even pulled out aspects of traditions and legal concepts into our every day lives. Where we differ is often in the details. Where differences popup, it’s hotly debated. Some opinions will change, become modified or remain the same depending on personal opinion. In a short time, the same topic will come up again due to that difference popping up again and the same results will happen. Will there ever be a time of at least some unity of thinking?

I think one of the most common things said among Gorean debates and discussion is, “your changing things” pfff I have said it myself a billion times. All to often it also seemed like the one saying it stood alone or in a very small group outside of the norm. The thought came to me last night, if in time a sense of unity happens in regards to things Gorean will it be because of what’s on paper, or because of actual practice. Ok while I hate to use this example I guess it’s easiest to use, slavery. Doesn’t take a genius to see the common practice of this institution is so far off in left field it hardly resembles what’s on paper. And no I am not talking about ideas found in the books like, ohhhhh you can kill a slave. No I am talking about the boyfriend/girlfriend quasi free any ways precious jewels, along with the catch phrases of no autonomy, mindless idiots type things running around Gorean circles. Most of these types of opinions bear only a slight resemblance to what’s in the books. So I question myself, maybe what’s on paper only sounds good, and actual application of it in life will ultimately be something else due to a natural evolution of things. Maybe that common ground already exists but I am to stuck in my ways I fail to see it.

All I know is in my time around, things haven’t gotten any closer to unity rather it has become more fragmented and “changed”. I can say, my own opinions have changed as well. What I thought was right, was questioned and I personally found maybe I wasn’t so right after all. I honed, shaped and polished things to where I am today. I continue to reevaluate positions. I have found paper is a great starting point and reference, life though doesn’t exist on paper it just happens. Then I think, I follow a philosophy taken from paper that philosophy was meant to make us think and challenge us. Maybe just maybe that is all there is to it everything else is just, icing. Then again I question myself, am I just trying to “change” things too, can I, should I, will I?

Jahna

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Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

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RE: What's on paper - 4/23/2010 10:14:19 AM

starshineowned

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quote:

All I know is in my time around, things haven’t gotten any closer to unity rather it has become more fragmented and “changed”. I can say, my own opinions have changed as well. What I thought was right, was questioned and I personally found maybe I wasn’t so right after all. I honed, shaped and polished things to where I am today. I continue to reevaluate positions.

Greetings...

This portion of your post Mistress stuck out to me. There haven't been any that have been in this section that I recall having ever flat out stated that they up and evaluated, and found they needed to do a complete 180* in their ways of thinking or doing once reading the books. Infact most that I've seen respond to questions along that line have been more apt to state the books simply resonated what they already thought about many things in life, and were already living accordingly to as best as they could.

With that said..aside from maybe changing some actual thought about what some book content meant to you (generalized) due to discussions or thoughts from others..when it gets right down to it..what really is or was there to change in areas that really matter of ones life, especially if you (generalized) were already wandering that path beforehand? It didn't take a book to identify for me what being a responsible adult was, thinking for myself, right from wrong, learning what in life truly does matter to me for happiness and even more far reaching..an effort on my part to ensure continued human survival.

I suppose when it all boils down over the years here..it just leaves me more open and accepting that others have their own ways, and they need to live and explore with just as much validity as me..but as far as actually changing my mind in regards to living life? No one beyond the persons that truly do matter can alter that no matter how much of an outsider that would make me to the rest of the world.

As far as following a philosophy taken from paper that was meant to make persons think and challenge? Has it ever been verified even from the author that such was ever his intent to begin with? Last I knew his stance remained that he never intended this to come to life and be followed by people. Perhaps his only real intent was to provide enjoyment to persons who enjoyed fiction?

starshine

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"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

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RE: What's on paper - 4/23/2010 7:46:40 PM

Cherylmazana

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As far as I am aware from people who have talked to him and his few written letters about this “phenomenon” initially he didn’t like the idea of people living in a literal M/s Gorean relationship, considering some role-players and lifestyles got very extreme in their views, a situation that still has negative consequences, especially with out-moded and ridiculous ideas such as slave failure an idea that was never even considered in the books it’s not surprising. At one time I was told he even refused to autograph the books of anyone who styled themselves a Gorean.

John Norman makes quite clear in his book Imaginative sex that he considers a Master slave fantasy as a way to enhance your sex life not as a way of living full time and it appears that he disagrees with any form of violence suggesting pretending striking your slave rather than actually striking her.

From reading various letters though I can say in my personal view he did expect people to read the books as adults, for them to make people question their lives and wonder if what they were doing in their lives enhanced them or not, and recently he wrote this letter the opening lines I have copied here.

How astonishing is the world-wide Gorean phenomenon!
How unexpected, certainly to me, that anything so different, and so remarkable, could occur.
It was not suspected, it was not sought, it was not envisioned.

An extract from a letter by John Norman, for the rest follow the link you do not need to join to read this letter.
http://gorchronicles.com/modules/wfchannel/

As to his views now on M/s relationships/BDSM etc they are not known of or written anywhere that I know of.

Cheryl

< Message edited by Cherylmazana -- 4/23/2010 7:47:06 PM >

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RE: What's on paper - 4/23/2010 8:15:37 PM

Cherylmazana

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Life is a constant cycle of change and adapt, using experience to hopefully make you wiser (as I said hopefully) and enable you to learn from your mistakes.

I am not the same person now that I was in my 20’s or even my 30’s things I believed in my 30’s I have come to realise are flawed, and the black and white of my 20’s has turned into a million shades of grey now in my 40’s. By the time I am in my 50’s I imagine I will have changed even more. To remain rigid and not to learn and change is to live in a closed world, it is in my view to refuse to live.

I have changed my views many times on Gorean issues over the many years of interaction on Gorean boards, and the discussions also have changed, the discussions on the Dagger of 10 years ago sound very different to the ones happening on various boards now, though some subjects keep raising their heads and probably always will. Also I believe the whole tone has changed, the poems of love by slaves to their owners, and the delight seem to have vanished for example, actually in saying that much of the fun and joy seem to have vanished and been replaced by much more serious discussions that go into more depth now, maybe that’s linked to the growing age of those participating.

I think we as a collective group know more now, the books are widely available and most of us have the ability to read them and discuss without having to rely on often false quotes or out of context quotes from the thousands of “one true Gorean website”. Discussion and opposing views are also welcomed much more than they once were, and are either accepted or rejected on their own merit rather than on the voice of a respected minority leading the herd.

There is no longer the one true way, which is good as that really is in opposition to what the books are trying to say, instead almost every individual makes their own choices and finds what works best for themselves, maybe we have finally stopped being the “same” and instead are ready finally to be individuals bound loosely by a common goal.

Cheryl

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