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"This girl......" - 9/18/2004 3:32:29 AM

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....is curious. : ) I am no expert but I do consider myself knowledgeable in the Gorean philo, having read the books, attended discussions and met those who incorporate this philo into their own lives, so I'm not fully understanding why some who identify as submissive speak in third person. Did this originate from the novels? I know when I wear my collar or am kneeling, for example, I feel closer to my slavery, a reinforcement of who I am, so to speak. Does speaking in third person do the same for some? Is it done only at an owners command? Curious I am.

Syn

RE: "This girl......" - 9/18/2004 5:05:52 AM

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From: Middle Tennessee
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I've often wondered that myself. I once had a Dom insist I speak in third person. I felt like a jacka**. I'm sure there is good reason, and I say more power to them.

_____________________________

Myra

(in reply to Synocense)

RE: "This girl......" - 9/18/2004 5:34:32 AM

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Greetings,

In many of the gorean books at times girls did speak and were required to speak in third person. With the creation of the online community some years ago the men found it made it easier to differentiate between slave and others. Also it instills in a slave her place and makes her think before she speaks or types per se. One of a slaves main goals is selflessness, and with that the use of "I" and "Me" at times can make a slave focus on themselves. I have been told numerous times in the past to speak like a slave.

I for years only spoke in third person, but as I became less and less involved with online, the habit has waned. I personally only speak third person now in normal discussions if required. At times though it comes out naturally in certain situations and without thought, usually inclusive of begging.

I think in the online medium people have used many different techniques. Many slaves/submissives only use "i" when speaking about themselves and most also use an uncapped letter in their names. If my memory serves me correctly, a gentleman from the Silk and Steel, one of the first online gorean groups started this trend, also girls showing ownership by marking their names with {owner}.

wishing you well,

deannalynn

(in reply to Synocense)

RE: "This girl......" - 9/18/2004 7:55:31 AM

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And greetings to you : )

What you wrote does make sense when I consider it more and it occured to me that each time I have witnessed the use of third person, it has been online. Interesting. I role played Gor on AOL for a gazillion years and knew some girls spoke that way "in character" for the sake of keeping it as close to the books as possible. I just never thought it would carry over like that into real life. I have never actually done it myself, but I imagine it's a way of depriving a person of her identity too, no? Or is that what you meant in part when you said it serves to remind her of her place? What of the ones who are not beneath someones hand at this time and still speak in third person? I find it interesting how such things can have such a strong psycological effect. Maybe that in itself is the reason and I'm answering my own question. lol Can anyone else shed some light?

Well wishes!

Syn

_____________________________

Before you speak, ask yourself..
Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?
Does it improve upon the silence?

(in reply to deannalynn)

RE: "This girl......" - 9/18/2004 12:25:40 PM

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Sorry to be barging in, but I'm pretty sure that I know the answer to this.

If you look at measures taken in the process of "resocialization," third person speech makes a little sense. When someone joins the military, is imprisoned, or joins a group which demands complete obedience (a monestary/convent or cult, for example), a lot of things are done to destroy or minimize one's individuality. Everyone gets their hair cut off in the same way, everyone is dressed the same... in many ways, the person is told that they are no longer their old self, but rather a generic commodity who exists only as a part of the group. "John Norman" (Prof. John Lange, PhD (Princeton), Dept. of Philosophy, Queen's College, NY) is a proponent of a sort of neo-Nietzschean philosophy emphasising what he feels is the natural order, which one can get a clear picture of by reading either his academic publications or his sci-fi. He most definitely was aware of methods of resocialization when he was writing his books, and discussed or used the most common of them in his sci-fi. The use of a slave "uniforms," for example, as well as initiations, etc. Third person speech had been in long use by the 1960s, when the Vietnam War (and, for all I know, knowledge of military-style "old guard") would have made him likely to think of practices used in the military. Ever hear the expression "this man's Army"?

(in reply to Synocense)

RE: "This girl......" - 9/18/2004 12:50:54 PM

gitta

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Excellent thread!!

My training is not Gorean, but my values, thoughts and general way of living is very similar to those who are. When i became a slave Goreans were few and far between, there were only 3 or 4 books writen then.

Speaking in third person is for me a way of showing respect and devotion. Being a slave means (at least to me) giving Your life to another, and the gaining of freedom which that brings. When one gives their entire being to another there is deep respect, third person speak is a way of showing that.

The online community seems to set their own standard, and for many this means all subs/slaves defer to all men. Not saying this is right or wrong, just that it is. Men tend to want power and having females speak in third person seems to do that for some. Personally i do not agree, i have enough sense to give respect where due and not because someone says i should.

If and when i speak in third person it simply happens, again more apt to be out of respect for the person i am speaking with. When with Master in public, i speak as anyone else does. When in the company of those we call friends and respect i speak in third.

In the Gor books i have found it used but not the rule. One of the things that i do know of Gorean men (ones who live it, not online ones) is that they appreciate intelligence in a slave much more than third speak.

OK, i have said enough here, and appreciate the thread.

_____________________________

smiles,
gitta

(in reply to Synocense)

RE: "This girl......" - 9/18/2004 5:18:05 PM

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quote:

a lot of things are done to destroy or minimize one's individuality. Everyone gets their hair cut off in the same way, everyone is dressed the same...

Ah-ha! So in essence, if a dominant person wants for third person speech it is a way of 'wiping the slate clean' so to speak? Thank you kindly for helping me understand something which has forever puzzled me. lol

quote:

..in the company of those we call friends and respect i speak in third.

Gitta.. thank you for your contribution. I had not considered until now that this sort of speech could be related to respect. I would see it as placing yourself deeper inside of your role/status when the opportunity presents itself. This is a respectful action. Am I close?

Syn

_____________________________

Before you speak, ask yourself..
Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?
Does it improve upon the silence?

(in reply to NoCalOwner)

RE: "This girl......" - 9/18/2004 8:55:42 PM

gitta

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Hello Synocense,

As to what and how i believe You are right on the money!! Personally i do not suffer fools, my respect is clear to all who know me, the rest just assume it...bad choice she giggles. A friend once told me, we respect not for who they are, but for who and what we are, and i have taken this to heart. Hope that i have been a benefit to your understanding, i do tend to speak from my heart. My suggestion is that you follow your heart, that you speak in whatever way makes you feel right.

_____________________________

smiles,
gitta

(in reply to Synocense)

RE: "This girl......" - 9/18/2004 10:44:52 PM

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quote:

In many of the gorean books at times girls did speak and were required to speak in third person.

Can you be a bit more specific in this? I recall 2 instances where a slave spoke 3rd person. In both, within minutes (or pages) she was back to speaking 1st person. I even recall someone asking about it and being told that it was something resorted to when needed for a slave to learn or accept her place. There were also places in the books were it said that masters would speak to their slaves for hours about everything (to paraphrase).

I guess it's just the way I look at. Yes, in the military they do things to get you in the mind set of behaving as a soldier. But if you already have the correct mindset as a Gorean slave, it was not something I saw being done in the books. There were many that they refered to as *natural* slaves....

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to deannalynn)

RE: "This girl......" - 9/19/2004 2:14:06 AM

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Actually, in the books, there are several references to slaves speaking in third person, though many times an actual conversation is not present. According to said books, this sort of speech was demanded because it stripped a slave of her identity, not only solidifying her place, but it kept with the notion that a kajira(u) owns nothing, not even her name. It was usually used in slaves new to their collar. If I recall correctly, there were as many defiant slaves as there were natural slaves. The way I perceived it, a natural slave didnt mean a girl knew, understood and accepted her place, it simply meant that she had all that was pleasing inside of her, and a man recognised this, still, she needed to learn. I am a natural slave, yet I fought it tooth and nail. The truth is not always easy to take. Estrict, you are absolutely right that in the books Gorean men enjoyed talking with their slaves. They were overjoyed with intelligence. I am not certain what that has to do with speaking in third person, but nonetheless, you are right. : )

gitta..... i sense you have a heart of gold, perfect for slavery and you should do nothing less that speak for your heart. You have helped in my understanding and I thank you kindly : )

Syn

_____________________________

Before you speak, ask yourself..
Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?
Does it improve upon the silence?

(in reply to EStrict)

RE: "This girl......" - 9/19/2004 4:05:01 AM

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quote:

Can you be a bit more specific in this? I recall 2 instances where a slave spoke 3rd person. In both, within minutes (or pages) she was back to speaking 1st person. I even recall someone asking about it and being told that it was something resorted to when needed for a slave to learn or accept her place. There were also places in the books were it said that masters would speak to their slaves for hours about everything (to paraphrase).

Hello Estrict :)

You are right, its only periodically spoken of through the books. Many of the rites, rituals and behaviours are mentioned sporadically, but it was usually consistent. I think is depends what the man preferred or if he was trying to put a point across. It can be very humbling. I found some quotes from the books, but there are probably more.

“Does Phyllis remember the lash?" asked Flaminius.
The girl's eyes widened with fear. "Yes," she said.
“Then say so," said Flaminius.
I whispered in Gorean to Ho-Tu, as though I could not understand what was transpiring. "What is he doing with them?"
Ho-Tu shrugged. "He is teaching them they are slaves," he said.
"I remember the lash," said Phyllis.
"Phyllis remembers the lash," corrected Flaminius.
"I am not a child!" she cried.
"You are a slave," said Flaminius.
"No," she said. "No!"
"I see," said Flaminius, sadly, "it will be necessary to beat you.”
"Phyllis remembers the lash," said the girl numbly.
Assassin of Gor - Page 131

"Master," she whispered.
"Yes?" I said.
"May I be taught to dance?" she asked.
"Who is 'I'?" I questioned.
"Alyena, your slave girl, Master," she whispered, "begs to be taught to dance."
"Perhaps she will be taught," I said.
"She is grateful," said the girl.
Tribesmen of Gor - Page 91

"Do you want Darlene branded?" she asked.
"No," I said, "of course not!" I was surprised that she had spoken of herself as she did, using her name. This is not uncommon, of course, among Gorean female slaves.
Fighting Slave of Gor - Page 147

"Buy me," she whispered. "Buy me. You are rich! You can buy me!"
"Is that how a slave begs?" I asked.
"Buy Tana!" she wept. "Buy Tana!"
Hunters of Gor, Page 61

"Who repents the error of her ways?" I asked.
"Tafa repents the error of her ways," she said.
"Who is sorry, who begs forgiveness?" I asked.
"Tafa is sorry! Tafa begs forgiveness!" she said.
Magicians of Gor, Page 122-123

"Who!" she demanded.
"I did," I cried. "I did!"
"Speak as a slave!" demanded Ute.
"El-in-or betrayed Ute!" I cried. "El-in-nor betrayed Ute!"
Captive of Gor, Page 287

wishing you well,

deannalynn

< Message edited by deannalynn -- 9/19/2004 4:23:04 AM >

(in reply to EStrict)

RE: "This girl......" - 9/19/2004 10:21:38 AM

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Wow, I will admit you came up with more examples then I remembered. But, they actually showed my one point. The slaves that were told to *speak as a slave* were told so when they did not remember their place, or when they were begging, not just talking. I guess that's why it seems a contridiction to me when I see things like *fully trained Gorean slave* then the person *always* speaks in 3rd person. If one is fully trained, they would KNOW their place well enough I would think...

I guess the main reason I didn't remember so many examples is because of his poor writing styles and constant contridictions, and the simple fact that the same people went back to 1st person the next time they spoke in most cases. It's sort of like the arguement you hear all the time about the strong, forceful, sexual free women in the gor books. In most cases they eventually ended up begging for a collar. Or the people who are *Gorean* and *sadists*, even though Gorean is more a state of mind and it says that Goreans in general considered sadism a mental illness.

::Wink:: I am betting you are not one of the people that thinks that *white* silk means anything other than virgin (though I have been wrong before and will again), 'cause if you were, I would have seen quotes that others claim are in the books.

Oh, and trust me,,, I know well that fighting being owned, even when it is something that you crave, is something many do/have done. But then, the good masters seem to prefer us with a little spirit :) Oh,, and it's Sandy,, please....

Thank you :)

< Message edited by EStrict -- 9/19/2004 10:23:09 AM >

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to deannalynn)

RE: "This girl......" - 9/19/2004 11:43:52 AM

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quote:

If one is fully trained, they would KNOW their place well enough I would think...

Sandy,
This is a good point and I think it's what caused my confusion in the first place, right along with why someone 'unowned' would speak in third person constantly. (Although, to contridict myself as well as Norman ever could, I know my place yet I get in a comfort zone and a little reminder of my place, out of the blue, never hurts. lol ) i now have some insight on how some Earthlings find it respectable to speak in third person. But could there be any other reasons?

Syn

_____________________________

Before you speak, ask yourself..
Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?
Does it improve upon the silence?

(in reply to EStrict)

RE: "This girl......",, other thoughts - 9/19/2004 1:09:59 PM

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This post has me thinking (yeah I know, a dangerous thing). It's been mentioned that not all slaves that are *Gorean* (or even just slaves) are *natural* slaves. Yet, if it is consensual slavery (which BDSM is suppose to be), there is a desire to be a slave, even if it is hard to accept in yourself.

I know at least 2 of the slaves in the quotes where girls brought from Earth. They came from a 60's or 70's culture on Earth were woman's rights were tantamount in society. They were not from a place where slavery was normal, natural, or acceptable. They would be the equivalent of a Gorean man of Earth kidnapping someone off the street just because *he* thinks she would make a good slave. No Gorean man I know would condone that, if for no other reason than the simple fact that unlike the Gorean society of the books, *forcing* someone to be your slave is not legal and enforced by the governing powers.

Being a Gorean slave in the US (or any country that doesn't condone non consensual slavery) is a very difficult. Society does not enforce the *rights* of the owner, and know matter how much you *feel* you are a slave, you know deep down that it IS your choice. Even if denying the need to be a slave is to deny yourself.

I don't know, maybe I'm making no sense, but I'm trying...

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to Synocense)

RE: "This girl......" - 9/19/2004 3:57:51 PM

stormiKnightBEAR

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In most Gorean settings......meaning clubs.......yes there are actually clubs OFF LINE.
Or in the "camps" of Goreans, most slaves are required to speak in 3rd person.

Third person speech is not required of this girl, however, it pleases Master for stormi
to do so and therefore, stormi has made a effort to do that because she is HIS slave and HIS pleasure is what is important to this girl.

Alot don't like it.
Alot say that it's hard to follow or read.
But everyone is free to choose to do what they want and make them HAPPY.

stormi
property of Master Bear

_____________________________

owned white silk slave of TEMJI aka Master Bear

PROUD TO BE TEXAN AND AMERICAN BY BIRTH~
GOD BLESS TEXAS AND THE U.S.A !!!!

(in reply to Synocense)

RE: "This girl......",, other thoughts - 9/19/2004 4:37:24 PM

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There is another thread that addresses the issue you are talking about, Sandy. To be Gorean is to take the Gorean philosophy and incorporate it into your relationship/life, not exactly the acts themselves that Norman writes about. In other words, a man can accept a woman as his slave and say she has no choices, but he can't lawfully force a woman to his slave, tell her she now has no choices and live happily ever after. He cannot kill because one of his slaves displeases him. That is murder, not a right. There are no giant birds he can jump on and ride away. Most of those I know who identify as Gorean do so because they believe in the Natural Order of things, that the male is the dominant of the species. This is not to say all women are slaves, but even Gorean Free Women know well that they are only free because men allow them to be...in the books anyway. I suspect women on Earth who identify as Gorean aren't fearful that one day they will be walking down the street and a man will force them to strip and wear a collar. I am sure this empowers them. Anyway, thats another subject altogether. lol

Stormi -

You stated your Master doesnt require you to speak third person, but you do because you know it pleases him. Which, btw, is commendable! But...can you explain why it pleases him, if you know for sure?

Thanks for all the insight so far!

Syn

_____________________________

Before you speak, ask yourself..
Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?
Does it improve upon the silence?

(in reply to EStrict)

RE: "This girl......",, other thoughts - 9/19/2004 9:22:54 PM

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Trust me Syn, I know that it is incorporated as much as can be. You have no where seen me imply that they follow the pure science fiction aspects of the book. I am speaking of the mentality differences when dealing with an issue that is accepted and enforced by society (as slavery is for Goreans of Gor) compared to knowing that no matter how much you may crave to belong to that culture, the choices are always there.

I think the one of the biggest problems I have that so many use it all the time, is it takes what *in the Gorean culture* had a well defined and specific purpose and bastardizes it. It takes away much of the significance and meaning of the action.

To me, using 3rd person speech in all you say and do is the Gorean equivalent of the cyber velcro collar. It is something that was started in an attempt to *show* how *real* something was, and in the end waters it down to the point that more roll their eyes and say *oh another one of THOSE* rather than take it serious.

The 2nd major problem is the simple fact that most Gorean slaves I have run across are intelligent, well spoken women. Yet, as has been stated, the use of 3rd person is to remind them that they own nothing, not even their names or sense of self is theirs. If that is true, it belittles the use of 3rd person to see it used by a person that is suppose to be accepting that they own NOTHING to be forcing opinions.... after all, it's again a contradiction to *own* their opinions while speaking them in a manner that shows they own nothing.

It's sad really.....

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to Synocense)

RE: "This girl......",, other thoughts - 9/19/2004 10:17:12 PM

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I didnt imply that you implied anything at all : ) I wrote what I did for the sake of other readers who might not have understood we were discussing the differences between a fictional society and one of reality.
The reason I started this thread is because I feel like you do...though I am gaining a small understanding now. Gitta states she speaks 3rd sometimes as a way of showing respect. Stormi states she speaks 3rd because it pleases her Master. Another told me in private that he speaks 3rd because he wants to be known as "less than" ... I am guessing by that he means he is one who likes to be thought of as inferior. I see now there are many reasons.

Syn

_____________________________

Before you speak, ask yourself..
Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?
Does it improve upon the silence?

(in reply to EStrict)

RE: "This girl......",, other thoughts - 9/24/2004 12:08:00 AM

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Well.....

This girl...speaks in thrid person for even yet another reason....lol. Whilst my Master is deployed, and every time He is deployed the girl is required to speak only in third person as a house rule. And it has little to do with Gorena ethos, and little to do with Master liking the sound of "slave tongue" in fact on the ears He says it is "most annoying". However, among hte plethra of long distance training and harnessign of the willt echniques a military TPE employs, requiring third perosn speech is right up there with journaling amongst the girls, this one, knows personally to help them retain focus on what they are. While Master is away for months on end it is required of the girl to do many numbers of things "business" and "decision" wise that could and have on occassion easily pulled her right out of submission. So third perosn speech is just one more way she tightens her own rope...lest she hang herself whilst He is away.

As a side note: from her experience in real time most kajira are not required to speak third person at the very least "all" the time, and indeed a great deal of Master's find the practice utterly insane. LOL.

sabrina King

House of King

(in reply to Synocense)

RE: "This girl......",, other thoughts - 9/24/2004 12:16:05 AM

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and ps...the girl also cant type worth crap hence she is a horrible icr or any other kajira...lol!
so she just sticks to her house chores....night and sorry for all type-os earlier.

sabrina

(in reply to bottominwa)

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