What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal?

What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (Full Version)

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ourmsbetty -> What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/9/2010 4:17:15 PM)
I realize just about a week ago there was a long thread on this subject, but I just came across this article on a blog I read regularly and thought it might add to the discussion. No, no law in Sweden says thou shall not flog thy partner, but apparently there do not need to be express laws against for there to be prosecutions as they can simply call it assault and or battery. http://www.thelocal.se/27068/20100606/ Some of you may remember that was the argument used in the Spanner case in the UK and other jurisdictions use similar legal reasoning from time to time. Here in Denver a few years ago we had the Jimmie Wellman case where the prosecution argued that legally one could not consent to being assaulted so one was guilty even if the "victim" consented. There is great debate about whether or not such arguments will hold up on appeal but apparently sometimes they do. Anyone else following the case in Sweden? Abel of The Spanking Writers (http://www.spankingwriters.com/blog/2010/06/09/bdsm-prosecution-an-important-case/) is asking for ideas to rally support for the defendant. Suggestions would be most welcome. Ms. Betty

laurell3 -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/9/2010 4:20:47 PM)
Sadly the age difference in that case will most likely not allow any unbiased decision on the actual merits of consentual bdsm. 32 year old Dom, 16 year old female with a jury (the age of consent in sweden is 15)? I can't believe that's going to be pretty.

ourmsbetty -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/9/2010 4:30:28 PM)
Me either. That was actually my first thought, whether or not we would be seeing this case if the girl were older. I am guessing not. There was a case in Washington state a few years ago, Stanley somebody or Scott Stanley, 3 names, all with S's where he was convicted of using a girl who had shown him a falsified birth certificate. Oddly enough, she had done it before, the first guy didn't get prosecuted, but SSS did. Only difference, his interaction involved BDSM, the other did not. I used to carry a card for the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom. Think I'm going to start again.

MarcEsadrian -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/9/2010 4:48:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ourmsbetty I realize just about a week ago there was a long thread on this subject, but I just came across this article on a blog I read regularly and thought it might add to the discussion. No, no law in Sweden says thou shall not flog thy partner, but apparently there do not need to be express laws against for there to be prosecutions as they can simply call it assault and or battery. http://www.thelocal.se/27068/20100606/ Interesting. It struck me after reading this post that I could go slightly farther back in posting history as well to recall a dialog about defending BDSM from common accusations. I think this is a current-day example of the need to continue to do so in light of how laws can still be used to serve and enforce ignorance. As an aside, I noticed in that article that "an expert on sadomasochism is set to testify at the trial". I had no idea courts recognized experts in sadomasochism. I learned something today, it seems.

ourmsbetty -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/9/2010 4:53:26 PM)
Ah yes, I remember that thread as well. I think the general conclusion was that it would do very little good. But in the spirit of the quote in your signature lines (a favorite of mine, btw,) and other sentiments expressed by the same author, dammit sometimes you have to fight back at least a bit. Where's Jubal when we need him? Oh wait, wrong book...sorry. I didn't know the court recognized "experts" in such things either. I wonder how they measure qualifications? (Shuddering at the thought of some of the so called "experts" that could be produced...) Ms Betty

brainiacsub -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/9/2010 5:28:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian [...] As an aside, I noticed in that article that "an expert on sadomasochism is set to testify at the trial". I had no idea courts recognized experts in sadomasochism. I learned something today, it seems. Marc, there have been several high profile cases in recent years of death or abuse charges as a result of BDSM activities. In each case I recall a "lifestyle" expert testifying for the defense. I am certain it would be quite easy to look these up.

zenny -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/9/2010 5:35:56 PM)
In all probability that means that a psychologist who specializes in sex therapy and has dealt with DSM-IV-TR defined presentations of sexual sadism and masochism will be present. It will not go well for this fellow. Especially given current clinical thought on such activities.

MarcEsadrian -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/9/2010 6:23:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub Marc, there have been several high profile cases in recent years of death or abuse charges as a result of BDSM activities. In each case I recall a "lifestyle" expert testifying for the defense. I am certain it would be quite easy to look these up. Perhaps it was the specificity on sadomasochism that hung me up. "Lifestyle expert" sounds a little more fluffy and all-inclusive. I still find myself wondering how one gets accredited officially for his or her Ph.D. (I'm avoiding the Masters pun). quote: ORIGINAL: zenny In all probability that means that a psychologist who specializes in sex therapy and has dealt with DSM-IV-TR defined presentations of sexual sadism and masochism will be present. It will not go well for this fellow. Especially given current clinical thought on such activities. Perhaps. One thing for sure is it's a shame the private, consensual lives of adults find themselves in the barrel over practices like these. I'm one who believes there is a fair share of quiet titillation aiding in the process alongside good ol' moral mediocrity, of course.

leadership527 -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/9/2010 7:41:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian Perhaps. One thing for sure is it's a shame the private, consensual lives of adults find themselves in the barrel over practices like these. Not at all. At least in the US, we came from an era where spousal abuse was a wink and a nod. Raping one's wife was not possible in some states and not prosecuted in the rest. While yes, I would like the government not interfering where it is not needed, I do have some concerns about going back to an era of carte-blanche for a husband. There's a reason it is mandatory for police to follow up on domestic violence cases. As is always true, things are not as cut & dried as everyone would like them to be.

MarcEsadrian -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/9/2010 8:44:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian Perhaps. One thing for sure is it's a shame the private, consensual lives of adults find themselves in the barrel over practices like these. Not at all. At least in the US, we came from an era where spousal abuse was a wink and a nod. Raping one's wife was not possible in some states and not prosecuted in the rest. While yes, I would like the government not interfering where it is not needed, I do have some concerns about going back to an era of carte-blanche for a husband. There's a reason it is mandatory for police to follow up on domestic violence cases. As is always true, things are not as cut & dried as everyone would like them to be. You may want to read the article cited in the OP, Jeff. Investigating for the possibility of domestic abuse or rape isn't my contention, nor would it be; it's a court taking upon itself the issue of how much sexual rough housing is permitted between two consenting partners. In this case, consent is already accepted and rape is off the table. I guess we all need to start somewhere. For Sweden, this is a first on such a case, or so it's said. Discussing how much violence is permitted in sex will be about as amusing a subject as the Supreme Court's fifty plus year bout of logistical twister over obscenity. Perhaps the consensus will be that we know it when we see it. But who knows...perhaps something positive may emerge out of it all.

aldompdx -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/10/2010 12:28:42 AM)
It is all about free choice, which includes WHERE you choose to live. Love it or leave it. In the first world, there is no iron curtain.

ranja -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/10/2010 2:25:07 AM)
some situations might be ok while others are not good at all i totally dig the hot idea of a young girl... only just legal or maybe even just not... and an older seasoned man with a mean sadistic streak... i get off on this fantasy myself in the role of the young girl... In reality however it is VERY unlikely that the young girl knows enough about anything to have the actual understanding of what she might be giving her consent to... even if anything was discussed before hand. I think it is most preferable that young people start out rather slowly... getting good at plain sex first, before getting into heavy inpact and forced clit piercing sort of activities... no matter how 'extreme' their fantasies So it would be nice if all older and experienced men would respect the young girls... and keep the heavy stuff for later or find a more experienced partner but alas life aint perfect

domiguy -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/10/2010 6:01:37 AM)
I find the whole thing to be rather dismissive. What percent of all abuse cases pertain to bdsm?....How about none. The problem is how do you protect the stupid or those unable to protect themselves? There are obviously plenty of posters out here that have such a diminished brain capacity that they virtually might agree to consent to virtually any activity whatsoever. Unfortunately someone has to protect these folks. I know this sounds rather ridiculous but you would hope that cooler heads would prevail when addressing a few bruises in an entirely consensual relationship. I hate to put blind faith in someone elses hands as to how I might be treated. If I recall there was a thread recently where some sub was proclaiming that she recently misplaced two thirds of her titty. Should the law intervene on her behalf? Even though she consented to being tied up and to participate in some good ol' fashioned titty torture there is no way that she requested to have two thirds of her titty lopped off. I don't think that in the big picture of what law enforcement and the court systems have to deal with that they are overly concerned about your consensual purple bruises and titties.

whipmaker7 -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/10/2010 6:42:39 AM)
interesting article betty. I'll be keeping an eye on this one. Thanks for posting the link!

whipmaker7 -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/10/2010 6:46:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I find the whole thing to be rather dismissive. What percent of all abuse cases pertain to bdsm?....How about none. Are you 100% sure about that? Whats your point, anyway? we're talking about bdsm and sadomasochism cases and unless you've been living under a rock, you'd find many cases brought to trial involve allegations of abuse... quote: ORIGINAL: domiguyI don't think that in the big picture of what law enforcement and the court systems have to deal with that they are overly concerned about your consensual purple bruises and titties. The Swedish court seems to be taking interest in just that. So you're obviously wrong on that assumption. [8\|]

whipmaker7 -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/10/2010 6:54:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ranjaSo it would be nice if all older and experienced men would respect the young girls... and keep the heavy stuff for later or find a more experienced partner but alas life aint perfect Who says he didn't respect her? Maybe it was his experience that she liked.

LadySilver0523 -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/10/2010 8:39:55 AM)
Well, I'm not actually following any case that's going on anywhere, or that's ever happened. But I do recall reading, on this very forum, about a couple that lived somewhere in the middle of the US that was pursecuted for being into BDSM. Their home was voilated and searched, all their "property" seized, they weren't even allowed to use the restroom unacompanied or have fluids without permission all while the local cops ridiculed them and made fun of them and their, "lifestyle" choices. Frankly, it makes me sick. The government here in the US can condone tortures that are un-necessary and downright brutal and unheard of? But people can't have the freedom to flog, whip, cane, spank, ect. their significant other even through consentual "play"? rediculous! *Now, as for my suggestions on what you should do or what your friends should do about stuff like this is the following;* DO NOTHING without WRITTEN and/or tapped consent. I know a guy that won't even be intimate or take another girls clothes off in a vanilla situation without there being a signed contract that she concented to taking her OWN clothes off and being close or intimate with him in which ever way they so chose. I know that seems a bit strange, but apparently he's been burnt many times before... And for someone in this lifestyle that doesn't want to get burnt, that's probably the best thing you can do now a days. *Something else that I have to say about this whole matter that makes me rather ill is the following;* I can't believe how ass backwards people feelings, beliefs, ect. are about sex and all that it intails. And the US is one of the worst for sexually repressing it's people. Sure, we've gotten better over the years, but it pales in comparission with those in the UK. I love the UK for that reason amoungst many others. But still, it's rather disturbing. Why can't we just be open and let people express themselves how they see fit with reasonable, practical guidelines? rolls her eyes and snorts in disgust as she crosses her arms over her chest and taps a foot quickly on the ground I just don't understand why people in "power" think they need to controll everyone else for their, "own good". It's rediculous, perposterous, and downright insulting to those of us that have developed frontal cortexes just like the majority of the rest of the human race. Ugggh!! *And you know, in a totally unrelated way; when the next rebellion happens, I'll be there with bells and whistles on.* *Nuff said,* *Silver*

leadership527 -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/10/2010 9:46:26 AM)
quote: LadySilver ranted I can't believe how ass backwards people feelings, beliefs, ect. are about sex and all that it intails. And the US is one of the worst for sexually repressing it's people. Sure, we've gotten better over the years, but it pales in comparission with those in the UK. I love the UK for that reason amoungst many others. But still, it's rather disturbing. Why can't we just be open and let people express themselves how they see fit with reasonable, practical guidelines? Translation: I know nothing about global societies but I'm certain the grass is greener somewhere else. Despite how emerald green that grass is though, I'm too lazy to get off my ass and move there. I'd much rather sit here and bitch about how everyone who doesn't agree with me is an idiot.

zenny -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/10/2010 4:14:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian Perhaps. One thing for sure is it's a shame the private, consensual lives of adults find themselves in the barrel over practices like these. You and me both. One problem I find is the presumption that a person cannot consent to such activities. Along this line of thought a person could not consent to joining the military, any number of risky jobs, or even following a workout regimen. A sad state of affairs. quote: ORIGINAL: aldompdx It is all about free choice, which includes WHERE you choose to live. Love it or leave it. In the first world, there is no iron curtain. While true that a myriad of choices abound it is foolish to assume many (if any) are even close to viable. To reductio ad absurdum would you choose to burn alive or jump out of a skyscraper? Personally, I'd rather there be no fire.

subbisherri -> RE: What was that about whether or not BDSM is legal? (6/10/2010 4:57:51 PM)
Well if it's a legal issue then here's a conundrum (for example): as a subbi you express consent contingent upon legal constraints, such as no sex with children or animals. And then you find yourself in a country where animal sex ISN'T against the law. Your original constraint was legal, not moral or just YUCK! so now what do you do? Sure you can defer based on "no frikkin way!" but if that wasn't your original reason, can you now legitimately alter your reasoning? How do you explain to your Dom(me) that maybe it really wasn't legal after all but based on something else, does that make you a liar or something less than honest? NOT judging, just looking for opinions.

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