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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 10:47:47 AM

Posts: 1088
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From: Washington State
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Whip,

Your not listening to what I am saying.

quote:

You mean like flogging her, raping her, skewing her breasts needles, shocking her with electric current, and sewing her vagina shut? You mean like pimping her out. ***ALL*** these things are done in the BDSM community with consent of 18 year old subs who have been into BDSM for many years.

I'm talking about almost killing a person, (yes, there is hard evidence of this in medical records). I have not practiced BDSM but I have read a bit...what you mentioned is common place among consenting adults. That is the key factor that needs to be proved, she was consenting and of sound mind to do so.

quote:

I think the law enforement officials involved are repulsed by BDSM practices. I think they believe all males who do these things to females are sick, perverted, deranged, dangerous, scumbags who should be locked up for the rest of their lives.

A little paranoid, dontcha think?

There are a few issues here, BDSM activities witholding....such as consent, the sale of a human being for profit and the girls age.    If you read the report, they sold her for cigarettes, meat, tapes, and cash.   Hospital records will show she was admitted, and for what.  They have the proof, why would you think otherwise?

I'll give you the fact some of what was practiced under the guise of BDSM could be explained away, but I don't foresee attempted murder, sex with a minor or human trafficking as being so easy to gloss over.

You wan't to ride the horse and claim the woman was enjoying consentual BDSM activities, go right ahead.   I'm not the one that needs to be convinced, you might try writing your thoughts and submitting them to a local MO paper. Perhaps you can convince the local folks who will serve on a jury.   Good luck :)

_____________________________

Just an old flower child, trying to survive in today's chaos and confusion.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 10:57:11 AM

Posts: 1088
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
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quote:

I don't understand the connection between the LA case and the one that is being discussed in the thread.

Lady Pact,

I was trying to point out to Whip, that just because things "appear" normal to the outside world, doesn't make it so.

Simply because the woman we are discussing in this thread appeared to be enjoying a consentual relationship...doesn't mean it was.

Hope that helps :)

_____________________________

Just an old flower child, trying to survive in today's chaos and confusion.

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 11:18:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I don't understand the connection between the LA case and the one that is being discussed in the thread.

That would be 'there's all kinds of crazies in the world' for 100, Alex.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 11:23:20 AM

Zevar

Posts: 801
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

The Feds are counting on people like you to believe everything they say and make up your mind bofore you have heard one word from the other side.

Clearly everyone has the right to a trial when charged with crimes in the U.S.A.. I did not read anywhere in any of the entries in this thread where others disagree with the constitutional rights of those charged criminally to NOT have a right to trial, etc..

How is it that you view others as ill-informed thus unable to form an individual perspective without your opinionated entries? Odd at best I would say to insult adults who have simply posted their viewpoint(s) as EVERYONE has the right to do so in America!

What is questionable is your defensive attitude and arrogant posturing; an observation having read the entire thread to date. If I am incorrect in my viewpoint, indeed your comments that would lend toward further clarity are quite welcome. That is if they are not somehow yet more defensive paranoid mistrust of the Federal Government and more of the same misguided diatribe that is inclined to be unfounded toward the Federal Government.

Indeed I will ignore any such unfounded comments toward the Federal Government and the drone of defense toward harming a minor. Did I fall for it? No, I stand for it! What? The rights for minors! My right to do so in America, aye! Moreover the right thing to do regardless.

Take care!

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 12:01:24 PM

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Fabulous.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 12:16:58 PM

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Forced abortion play is hot. But then again, I am a liberal.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 9/19/2010 12:17:23 PM >

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 12:27:41 PM

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Joined: 7/31/2006
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quote:

I'm talking about almost killing a person, (yes, there is hard evidence of this in medical records).

That was accidental. They took her to the emergency room. Less current is more dangerous than more current. It takes very little current to cause ventricular fribullation. That is not something I would expect people living in a trailer part to realize.

"...what you mentioned is common place among consenting adults. That is the key factor that needs to be proved, she was consenting and of sound mind to do so."

All evidence points to the fact she was a consenting adult. I dont know what third world coutry you are from, maybe, Iran, N. Korea or China, but here in the United United the burden of proof is on the state not the defendant. The state must prove that didn't consent, that she was not of sound mind. You have put the shoe on the wrong foot. Take your freaking third world values back to country you came from. If you were born in the USA, then you dont deserve to live here with your Iranian view of criminal justice.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 12:51:43 PM

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quote:

A little paranoid, dontcha think?

Not at all, I know form first-hand observation how law enforcement and prosecutors manufacture lies out of wholecloth, how they pile on charges they know have no validity, how they lie in court and get witnesses to lie in court.

A prosecutor once said to me, if you say in court what you just told me the Defendant will go free. You would have to testify you saw this scumbag do x, y, z for him to be found guilty. Now tell me again what did you see?"

"the sale of a human being for profit"

Nobody was sold at all. That is bullshit. They never alledge they sold this female? To who?

"the girls age."

The girl was over 18 when they alledging the crime they are charging these guys with took place.

"If you read the report, they sold her for cigarettes, meat, tapes, and cash."

How stupid can you be? They didnt sell her for that. Both she and them allowed some guy to have sex with her in exchange for those items. Offering your body for sex, or offering the body of your sub for sex is not the same as selling a human being to another to be their slave.

"They have the proof, why would you think otherwise?"

They do not have proof, that is why they have charged these guys in Federal Court. If they had a strong case they would have let the State file charges. If you read their indictment it is clear they dont have proof. They are cliaming they coerced this female by brainwashing her by showing her fetish born, and by giving her things of low value, and by the claim she is mentally defecient, when in fact she is not mentally defecient.

"Ill give you the fact some of what was practiced under the guise of BDSM could be explained away, but I don't foresee attempted murder"

For Christ Sakes, they didnt attempt to murder her. They took her to the hospital to save her. BDSM can be a dangerous activity. Male and female subs have died practicing BDSM. They were stupid, not malicious. Never attribute to human malice that which can easily be explained by human stupidity.

"sex with a minor or human trafficking as being so easy to gloss over."

They are not being charged with sex with a minor. Do you freaking know what human trafficing means? Human trafficing means selling people as salves. They did not do this.

These defendants have no hope, because there are too many people like you who dont understand how often law einforcement makes up shit. They are guilty of taking a female across state lines for purposes of prostitution, maybe. But that is not the same as human trafficing. They are not being charged for anything they did to her when she was a minor. They are throwing that in just to prejudice you against the Defendants. And it is working. If she committed murder they would not be saying she was mentally defecient. They would say she is a bright girl. She is not so mentally defecient to join the Army and die in Afganistan.

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(in reply to AlwaysLisa)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 12:52:50 PM

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Evidence to support your claims?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Because the facts dont add up, because I believe they are being rail-roaded for practicing consensual BDSM. Because I have seen hundreds of cases like this where law enforcement makes all kinds of wild allegations, only to find they have all been made up.

I know the way law enforcement operates. I know how dishonest I believe people are innocent until enough evidence is supplied to convince me otherwise. I believe in giving others the benefit of the doubt. I just dont automatically identify with every person who claims to be a victim, and believe everything they say. Realty tends to be less black and whilte,

_____________________________

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 1:00:18 PM

Posts: 1088
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline

quote:

I am leavng this forum. It seems everyone here already has made up their minds, and convicted these guys based simply on the indictment and allgations made against them.

You still here?   Your word means alot, I see.

Since I don't know how many actually live in MO on this message forum or what the odds are that any one here would be chosen for a jury in this case.... what others believe is truly nothing but personal opinion and really not worth getting your panties in a knot.

You told me to retake logic 101 and made some crack that I ignored, perhaps you should take your own advice and back away from the box.   I'm sure those involved with actually defending the accused will do their part without your help. All you have managed so far is to really be annoying, fail to listen to anyone else who might have an intelligent thought and try to bulldoze your way through a thread. Nice achievements so far.   Please, continue, I won't respond to your posts any further. The lint trap on my dryer needs cleaning.

_____________________________

Just an old flower child, trying to survive in today's chaos and confusion.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 1:15:34 PM

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Yes, I have. The same quality evidence that is used to convict people on first degree murder charges. Eye witness testimony. I saw this with my own eyes. I grew up believing police act like they are portrayed on television or in the movies. All I have claimed, I have seen myself. If I hadnt seen it myself, I never would have believed. Other people I know have seen it too. In fact, judge, prosecutors and defense attorney all know it goes on. It is a regular feature of our criminal justice system. It is only the public how doesnt know. It is like we are living in pre-Rodney King days, where the people have no idea how dishonest law enforcement really is. What I have seen makes Rodey King cops look like angels. I am not talking about police who take bribes, who steal drugs, who rip-off drug dealers, who regularly engage in criminal enterprises. I am talking about nice law enforcement officers. who are well-meaning, who believe it is their job to get scumbag criminals incarcerated. They have no compunction to piling on charges, to lying, to exaggerating and shadding the truth to get a conviction. They figure if they dont lie, most criminals would go free. There are sadistic officers who get off on bullying others, who find it easier to lie to take the bad guys down than have to waste the taxpayers money, their money, on a silly investigation, when they know these scumbags are guilty and should be behind bars. So they just take a few short-cuts, and tell a few lies. Prosecutors "coach" witnesses getting them to lie. I have been the main state witness in over thirty criminal cases. My testimony has put away criminals for life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval
Evidence to support your claims?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Because the facts dont add up, because I believe they are being rail-roaded for practicing consensual BDSM. Because I have seen hundreds of cases like this where law enforcement makes all kinds of wild allegations, only to find they have all been made up.

I know the way law enforcement operates. I know how dishonest I believe people are innocent until enough evidence is supplied to convince me otherwise. I believe in giving others the benefit of the doubt. I just dont automatically identify with every person who claims to be a victim, and believe everything they say. Realty tends to be less black and whilte,

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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 1:17:15 PM

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Eye witness testimony is notoriously inaccurate.

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(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 1:39:02 PM

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

I have been the main state witness in over thirty criminal cases. My testimony has put away criminals for life.

That is, by far, the scariest thing I have read in a long, long time. I hope neither the PA nor the DA ever reads anything you write. Well, on second thought, yes, I hope they do.

Cali

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(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 1:46:23 PM

Zevar

Posts: 801
Status: offline

FR:

I am grateful to know that our Judicial System is not erroneously persuaded by opinion or hear-say babble posted on the Internet by self appointed people who claim to “know something about law” when in fact appear to know NOTHING about Law when it is related to the reality of cases as presented in this thread.

Seriously speaking, this young woman was reportedly victimized in a manner that is nothing to make light of or to joke about! I wonder if those who defensively speak for the accused would have been willing to be in the position of this young woman for but a moment when she was reportedly being tortured? Or bartered for commodities? Or marketed against her will on the Internet for sale?

Were talking about the life of a young woman who was reportedly tortured for the distorted pleasures of those accused. Mere conjecture and ego posturing will make NO strides in a Court of Law. No not all at. Instead this case is about what reportedly occurred to a young woman in a most “off the chart” manner. Facts are facts. Opinion on the other hand is just that, opinion.

Facts will be presented. A verdict will be rendered. A sentence will be mandated. However the life of this young woman will have to live with the demented acts done to her heart, mind, body and soul for the rest of her life. Therapy or not for the victim, how is that justice?

Consider that, aye!

(in reply to CalifChick)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 1:57:29 PM

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Joined: 9/11/2010
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quote:

When a runaway 16 year old walks up to your trailer, your focus should probably be how to get her to a place where she can be responsible for her own decisions.

Trying to get such a vulnerable person to consent to anything this drastic is... thoughtless at best. There is at least one thing there that is inherently impossible to consent to because it involves another life.

Things like emotional abuse are impossible to prove so they are just going for more tangible things.

When a 16 year old girl runs away it's because she's not interested in living by anyone elses rules. She wants to make her own decisions and she willing to risk shelter, physical and food security to do it. To think that a person who's on her own and rejecting all other authority figures isn't going to do exactly what she wants to do is ridiculous.

This guy took her in. The allegation that he "lured" her is speculation and in contradiction of the mindset of a 16 year old runaway. Her own parents couldn't control her what makes us think this guy had any more control?

She was there willingly--from day one. She could have left at any time. She had a gun, freedom of movement, a job, and she had celebrity. What exactly about this makes her a prisoner or a slave?

(in reply to Twoshoes)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 2:16:37 PM

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quote:

Oh please, I have an inherent distrust of Fed's. People like me? You mean individuals who refuse to defend a belief in BDSM as a defense against atrocity? Or, people who don't allow their inherent distrust of the powers that be, dictate the direction of their own moral compass?

I don't know the facts of this case but here's a bit of news for you. Neither do you.

If you don't know the facts of the case then how can you describe it as "atrocity"? Clearly you are operating under the convenient and politically correct doctrine of women always innocent and men always evil.

Whatever occurred, you and others are certain that the men involved were all evil and guilty and the woman involved was exploited and helpless and brainwashed.

She couldn't possibly want to be branded and tattooed even though these are actually mainstream activities and millions of young adults (and old) engage in.

She couldn't possibly want to be sexually exploited even those there are hundreds of female profiles of women on this site begging to be sexually exploited.

She couldn't possibly want to be whipped, caged, or controlled even though there are thousands of women on this site who can't get off unless that occurs.

You've made up your mind without using your mind.

There is a reason we have laws that guarantee a person is "innocent until proven guilty". It's because of people like you and others on this thread.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 2:20:06 PM

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WhiptheHip, I'm relieved that there are so many people with sense on this thread and that I don't have to say everything I'd like to say to you. The gist is this: I wouldn't get within 100 feet of you without an armed guard. Your moral barometer is malfunctioning. You're the type of person who ensures domestic violence and rape frequently go unpunished, because you think being able to walk out the door is all there is to it.

Part of me is thinking that you're defending this so violently because you would like to do it to a girl yourself. The rest of me thinks that you're just misguided, and not able to see two inches past your face. I would encourage you to look around you at those who disagree with you...we're all active participants in the BDSM lifestyle, and yet we all seem to be able to separate that from what happened with this girl. You need to perhaps do some self reflecting about what it is you think BDSM is, because all that shit is not a part of it.

(in reply to Zevar)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 2:21:29 PM

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Okay, let's say this girl consented to a lot that went on and had the emotional and mental wherewithal to consent. At some point she didn't consent and begged for them/him to stop, which they/he didn't. The one guy who was her master sewed her up and caused her to go into cardiac arrest. She begged them/him to stop... she safe worded... yet she almost died and great risk to her health in all manners was taken.

Good master or bad master? Stupid master or smart master? Someone who cared enough to house her took such risks? Was he a good guy because he got her medical assistance? What kind of master does such things? An abusive one that doesn't care for her well being despite the fact that he took in a homeless street urchin looking for a better life. He broke laws in taking her in and being with her whether he fucked her or not. He took risks with his own legal standing and position in the community and with her life.

He was an idiot and if he suffers the result of being an idiot, big fucking deal. If someone sewed up my urinary hole and pussy and caused me to go into cardiac arrest... you can bet he would be arrested. Who would consent to that? Was it really just an accident.. this Mr. Ed, so knowledgeable in bdsm and all good things? A fool is a fool and he was a fool and because he got caught with his hands in the bdsm cookie jar... big fucking deal. Because she consented to bdsm doesn't mean she consented to almost dying and if she did... she wasn't in her right mind.

At what point does it stop being bdsm and start being abuse? I've made up my mind. Defend these men all you want because they have been done wrong by a resentful woman who entrapped them if you like to think that... but any person going through what she did even if it only amounted to them/him not stopping at a safe word and her begging them/him to stop, having her body sewed up and a near death experience ought to say something.

They played with fire and the extreme and got caught. Boo hooo hoooo hooooo. Since some of you are all fired up about how mistreated these men are... will you contribute to their legal expenses or accounts so they can buy treats and soap behind bars. Put your fucking words to action and help those poor, stupid mother fuckers or shut the fuck up.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 2:28:44 PM

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<i>I was trying to point out to Whip, that just because things "appear" normal to the outside world, doesn't make it so.

Simply because the woman we are discussing in this thread appeared to be enjoying a consentual relationship...doesn't mean it was.

Hope that helps :)</i>

So what I think you are saying is that if a woman says says she didn't consent we should believe her because she knows what she's talking about.

However, if she says she DID consent then we should not believe her because we know what we're talking about?

And down the slippery slope we go. At what point will we realize we can't trust anything because we're making it up as we go along?

Also, in this country, a rape has not occurred if a man believes he has consent. So long as this woman consents or gives the appearance of consent then no rape has occurred. I believe the entire case will hinge on this legal aspect, which is why the Feds have tried to paint this woman as incompetent or mentally unreliable.

(in reply to Twoshoes)

RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 2:37:34 PM

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<i>There are a few issues here, BDSM activities witholding....such as consent, the sale of a human being for profit and the girls age. If you read the report, they sold her for cigarettes, meat, tapes, and cash. Hospital records will show she was admitted, and for what. They have the proof, why would you think otherwise? </i>

These activities fall under sexual humiliation--BDSM.

<i>I'll give you the fact some of what was practiced under the guise of BDSM could be explained away, but I don't foresee attempted murder, sex with a minor or human trafficking as being so easy to gloss over. </i>

First there is no allegation of sex with a minor. NONE. So why you guys keep making up crimes is beyond me. If you guys are doing it then you can guarantee that some federal agent with his career on the line will do it too.

At any rate, I think the human trafficking is bogus. They lived together and therefore whatever financial gains that were made were used to support that household. If she was human trafficked then so is every man who brings his paycheck home to his wife.

I don't see an attempted murder. Why try to kill someone and then bring her to the hospital for emergency care? If there was even indifference or neglect here they would have kept her from the scrutiny of a hospital.

<i>You wan't to ride the horse and claim the woman was enjoying consentual BDSM activities, go right ahead. I'm not the one that needs to be convinced, you might try writing your thoughts and submitting them to a local MO paper. Perhaps you can convince the local folks who will serve on a jury. Good luck</i>

Those men have their own battle to fight. I'm not on here because I have a personal stake in their fate. Our culture regularly disposes of men for the most arbitrary and capricious of reasons. Nothing I can do will ever change that.

However, my goal here, is to point out the hypocrisy of some of the opinions being stated here. All of the allegations made so far are BDSM activities of some sort. So if these men can be charged then so can any of us. I think that point should resonate with the self-preservationist side of the human psyche. I'm puzzled why so far it hasn't.

Most people ignored Noah too.

(in reply to Twoshoes)

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