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"Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A Question)


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"Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A Que... - 11/7/2010 2:42:36 PM   
Bear0fAr


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Okay, so let's chew on this a bit:

The newest Gor novel is due. Good for Dr. Lange! 2011 will be a good year! "Illusions of Gor" has a publication and a street date!

Much excitement ensues and the anticipation of the release is palatable. The magic day finally comes, and you (and you, and you, and you, and even you, the little one hiding in that corner over there) run out to your favorite bookstore and return home with your prize. You settle into your favorite chair, with a glass of your favorite beverage, and crack open the cover and begin to read.

You read this:

Chapter One

Ellen Markin awoke suddenly, sitting up in bed. Covered in sweat, she pushed the hair back from her face. Exhaling explosively, she had not even realized that she had been holding her breath. Looking across the room she could see through the curtains that the sun was just beginning to rise above the horizon. Slowly she rose and padded naked to the window. There was no need to be modest, no one could see her; a perk of having a condominium on the thirty-sixth floor.

The sound of running water attracted her attention. From across the room a sliver of light escaped from a slightly open door. Turning from the window Ellen smiled and tiptoed toward the door. As she entered she was aware of the change in both temperature and humidity. Through the frosted glass of the shower, a figure of a man in the process of bathing could be discerned. Ellen leaned on the sink as she spoke.

"I've had a bad night," she said.

From behind the glass an inquisitive grunt could be heard.

"Yes," said Ellen, continuing. "A bad night. I had a dream. It sounds kind of funny now, to speak of it during the daytime, but it bothered me all night."

The male figure in the shower continued with his bath, and gave no response.

"I dreamt that I was taken to another world, kidnapped in fact, in order that I might be sold as a slave." Ellen snorted. "A slave!
Me? Can you imagine anything more ridiculous?"

She paused for a response from the shower, and receiving none, she continued.

"It was a world where men are truly dominant, and many of the women submissive to them. Even the women who were free! But I was no free woman, oh no! I was told that I was a delicious slave simply waiting for a man to claim her and show to her the truth that is in her soul."

She shook her head smiling.

"A slave," she said, muttering.

The sound of the water abruptly cut off and the door of the shower opened to allow a tall and well-muscled man to step out. A shock of bright red hair crowned the top of his head. Naked and silent, he grabbed a towel from a nearby stand and began to dry himself. As he did so his eyes never left the woman in front of him.

"I think it bothered me most due to the fact the it was so ludicrous. No woman would allow a man to degrade her so; to take away her freedom; to reduce her to nothing but chattel. Yet, I felt that I was there, and remember well the fear of standing on a slaver's block, hearing the bids called out for me." She paused, then continued. "I've not felt such a fear since the twin towers were destroyed."

The man, kneeling now and drying his ankles, listened intently.

Ellen regarded him. "Tarl," she said. "Do you think I would make a good slave?"

Tarl, on his knees, looked up at the woman and replied.

"No, Mistress."

Ellen was pleased. "Good boy! I don't think so either. The thought of such a thing is truly repugnant to me. I could never find myself in such a situation."

She ran her hand through the red hair of the man kneeling at her feet. "Now you go and prepare breakfast. Eggs, I think. Toast, juice and do not forget the sugar in my coffee, again."

Tarl shivered at the reminder. "No Mistress, I shall not," he whined. He scampered out the door toward the kitchen to begin performing his daily duties.


End of Chapter One.

And it goes on in the same vein, chapter after chapter. It concludes with Tarl, again at the feet of his mistress, purring contentedly.

So.

My question to those here is simple:


Has anything changed for you, Goreans?

_____________________________

Bear's Gorean Musings

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/7/2010 5:56:57 PM   
Nephilim


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I doubt that any new books would counter the philosophical perspectives of the previous books. If it did, it would alienate the small fan base that the series has. Most authors, when they decide to go with something entirely new, they start a new series all-together. If that did happen, and there was a dramatic change in the philosophy of the series, then people would still be as they are. I doubt many would change what they see as Gorean unless for some unknown reason the new book became wildly popular. In which case, many probably wouldn't use the word Gorean to describe themselves to others to avoid the constant explanation of the philosophy of the earlier works.(The length of explanations currently needed already push the line for many) It would be a loss for the language as we wouldn't be able to communicate as much with a single word.

I personally don't think that the books exclude the possibility of a truly submissive male. It only says that they would be regarded with contempt by other non-submissive males. (Perhaps somewhat similar to the way the free-women hate female slaves, did anyone else see that parallel?) It also promotes the idea of natural gender roles. I think Plato's Republic pointed it out best that sex and gender are more complex than polar opposites but that doesn't stop us from having a polar (normative) societal view. He also, correctly, pointed out that while some women may be suitable to compete in the games, their nude bodies would be quite a distraction.(Since male athletes competed in the nude but females were more modest in general)

< Message edited by Nephilim -- 11/7/2010 5:58:01 PM >

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/8/2010 2:21:15 AM   
Cherylmazana


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The first thing I would do is to check that John Norman hasn’t had any form of surgery that could change his personality, or that the book hadn’t been written by another writer. If neither of those were the case and John Norman had done a 180 degree turn with his beliefs due to some profound eureka moment I would simply stop calling myself a Gorean.

The value that I had received from the earlier books wouldn’t vanish, the lessons I have learned that have enhanced my life wouldn’t change and neither would the memory of debates that made me question almost everything that society sees as correct.

I would still read his earlier books, after all I first read them as purely science fiction books with no thought of philosophy, so really nothing in my life would change but how I describe myself.

However somehow I don’t think this is going to happen, most people simply don’t change that much without something major or life changing happening to him. Reading his fantasies he is unlikely to want to end up in service to a Dominatrix, unless of course his whole series of Gor books were nothing but an elaborate denial of his real desires, and he is about to burst forth out of that closet and kneel at some woman’s feet in which case the sequel to Illusions will be the Dominatrix of Gor and we can see a whole new round of arguments about the books start.

Cheryl


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Sometimes just because it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn’t mean it is a duck, it could instead be a plastic replica that leads ducks to their ruin.

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/8/2010 3:51:48 AM   
MAWarGod


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So at what point does role reversal become role distortion with societies input of course..
How many are lost or truly confused in what they should be, feel or do, what is politically correct? What are the true effects of society’s distortion of the natural roles of our species? Does this create undo stress? Does this truly contribute to society in significant ways?

Those of us that hold to the natural order of our roles seem to be against society views and their preconceptions that some how this distortion is apart of evolution for both sexes..

Would this book change My views No it would not... for we have only seen one chapter, the next chapter Tarl may be released collar Ellen Markin, or Ellen Markin may willfully submitt to Him and from there go with the status quo of the predecessors or books, maybe giving a example or guide to modern Man..


< Message edited by MAWarGod -- 11/8/2010 4:05:53 AM >


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enjoying My permanent Vanilla cone!!

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/8/2010 4:14:30 AM   
ElizabethAnne


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Hello,

hmm...reminds me of a shower scene from the 80's show Dallas, when Pam heard the water running, and Patrick stepped out of shower...even though he had been killed off. 

Take care,

Elizabeth



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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/8/2010 5:05:06 AM   
MAWarGod


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Chapter Two

Tarl in the kitchen making the meal just the way she likes it in every detail and places the perfect amount of sugar with her coffee and hurries it out to her. he kneels and offers her the tray. Without a word..


Ellen was focused. "DID you DO AS I ASK!

Tarl, on his knees, looked up at the woman and replied.

"Yes, Mistress."

Tarl now holding the tray up to Ellen in proper fashion

She shook her head smiling.

Ellen was pleased. "Good boy! As She took the tray..


Ellen slowly eating and enjoying Her food..eyeing tarl with that look in her eyes..when finished She set the tray down beside her.. come boy she said, as she grabbed him by the hair and tugged him toward the bedroom..


“Censored sexual scene(without going into to many details)”

In the throws of passion Ellen screams to the skies, Tarl OHH its so good as Her legs start shaking uncontrollable and the words coming from Her lips don’t make since at all.. She takes off his collar and he grabs it and slaps it around Her neck and we hear the sound of the VELCO on the collar through out chapter three!!!~!!

End of Chapter Two

Laughs

< Message edited by MAWarGod -- 11/8/2010 5:23:56 AM >


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enjoying My permanent Vanilla cone!!

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/8/2010 5:10:07 AM   
Bear0fAr


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Thank you all for your answers. I would like to allow some more time for others to give their thoughts, before I make further comments.

Bear-

(Elizabeth, good for you! You got me! We're showing our age!)

_____________________________

Bear's Gorean Musings


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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/8/2010 11:21:03 AM   
starshineowned


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quote:

The first thing I would do is to check that John Norman hasn’t had any form of surgery that could change his personality, or that the book hadn’t been written by another writer. If neither of those were the case and John Norman had done a 180 degree turn with his beliefs due to some profound eureka moment I would simply stop calling myself a Gorean.


Greetings..

I'm having a little trouble with this portion of your post Mistress. Given the fact that these books are fictional..how did you arrive at the conclusion that these are Normans beliefs?

I was under the impression from different posts here over the years that Norman himself has more or less denounced anything within the books as his beliefs? Some of his other literature would suggest otherwise if it were anything beyond just men and women being comfortable in their own skins enjoying life and exploration of sex rather than repression.

starshine


_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/8/2010 6:55:31 PM   
Cherylmazana


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Starshine while I cannot say for sure never having met him, I have been told by people who have met John Norman at various venues that while John Norman does not believe in people trying to literally live as if they are on Gor. IE lifestyle Goreans who act as if their M/s relationship is a literal Gorean one with the Master having the power of life and death over his slave, and yes there are people who go to those extremes.

However he did write the books with the idea of making people think about life and the society in which they live in, and he has no objections to people trying to live by the philosophy contained within the books. Norman/Lange wrote these books as a way to make people think, philosophy wrapped in a science fiction envelope, an unusual way to get his message across but maybe one that suited the time in which he wrote the books.

So based upon what I have been told if you see the books purely as a lifestyle template then you are right in your belief that John Norman has denounced those who would live by those beliefs, as the books were never intended to be such. In the end it all comes down to what you see the books as being.

Cheryl

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Sometimes just because it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn’t mean it is a duck, it could instead be a plastic replica that leads ducks to their ruin.

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/8/2010 7:59:22 PM   
starshineowned


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Starshine while I cannot say for sure never having met him, I have been told by people who have met John Norman at various venues that while John Norman does not believe in people trying to literally live as if they are on Gor. IE lifestyle Goreans who act as if their M/s relationship is a literal Gorean one with the Master having the power of life and death over his slave, and yes there are people who go to those extremes.

However he did write the books with the idea of making people think about life and the society in which they live in, and he has no objections to people trying to live by the philosophy contained within the books. Norman/Lange wrote these books as a way to make people think, philosophy wrapped in a science fiction envelope, an unusual way to get his message across but maybe one that suited the time in which he wrote the books.

So based upon what I have been told if you see the books purely as a lifestyle template then you are right in your belief that John Norman has denounced those who would live by those beliefs, as the books were never intended to be such. In the end it all comes down to what you see the books as being.

Cheryl
[/quote]

Thank you for your explanation Mistress but stating I didn't believe or think "based on what I have read" that he shared the same beliefs is alot different than stating he has denounced those who would live by those beliefs. I did not say nor infer that. I do know he never envisioned a living lifestyle to ensue as a result of the books. That was in some article I read along the lines somewhere..heh. I also read somewhere that he feels all societies are based on dominance and hierarchy though it did not state as to specifically gender based dominance. That was from a wiki excerpt of a interview with some reporter..not the best of source material.

Interesting though in that if he did share the same philosophical beliefs (any portions workable into accepted society of today atleast) why he still remains unspoken about it. Heaven knows I'm sure the man has been asked in more ways than one can count.

starshine


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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/9/2010 5:06:35 AM   
kisshou


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Greetings,

If he only wrote one book like this no it would not change anything. If he wrote 26 books all with the female being the dominant person and the male the submissive then it would.

well wishes
kisshou

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/9/2010 5:37:05 AM   
AnnaOfAramis


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quote:

Interesting though in that if he did share the same philosophical beliefs (any portions workable into accepted society of today atleast) why he still remains unspoken about it.


Greetings starshine,

He has not remained unspoken about it. He wrote his PhD dissertation on those philosophical beliefs: In Defence of Ethical Naturalism: An Examination of Certain Aspects of the Naturalistic Fallacy, With Particular Attention to the Logic of an Open Question Arguement (Princeton University, 24-12, Page 5636; order #AAI6401330).

Hope this helps :)

Well wishes,

anna

_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/9/2010 8:14:06 AM   
starshineowned


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Thank you anna. While only able to find brief snips of summary regarding his dissertation..those only begged more questions..heh. Mans propensity to constantly seek an answer to end all questions is mind boggling for sure.

starshine


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"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/9/2010 8:52:12 PM   
Cherylmazana


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Sunshine, the whole point of philosophy is to constantly ask questions, to ask is there an answer? And then question the answer.

I have read more of his work than just his Gorean books and other science fiction novels. It does seem to me that what he was writing in his books was more than just a sexual fantasy, there is layer after layer of intertwined ideas questioning everything that our society held sacred. I cannot imagine that he would write such books and have the ideas inside diametrically opposed to his own.

Question everything.

The discussion is the fun bit.

Cheryl


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Sometimes just because it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn’t mean it is a duck, it could instead be a plastic replica that leads ducks to their ruin.

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/12/2010 3:53:10 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

I cannot imagine that he would write such books and have the ideas inside diametrically opposed to his own.


I agree. I see no reason to credit him with that level of commitment to philosophy and psychology.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/12/2010 6:17:51 AM   
starshineowned


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Greetings..

I think for me it isn't so much that Norman has a interest or belief system in part or whole supporting ethical naturalism or other portions of philosophy from nietzsche or even drawing off of factual history of mankinds behaviors individually or socially. I think where I see it not hitting home for me is no claim of support that his work with the book series constitutes a solid new philosophical view..i.e. Gorean philosophy.

This is not withstanding the fact that he deliberately left out many aspects of reality that we as humans have always had to contend with in part or in whole that strongly ways in the factoring of ones ethics and morality for both individual and social decisions and actions.

The best that I've seen from Norman is speaking in regards to persons living or persuing the Gorean experience..which to me is more directed to engaging in the M/s exchanges or along those lines.

Still working with this in my head but that is the jest of where I am at presently.

starshine

< Message edited by starshineowned -- 11/12/2010 6:23:27 AM >


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"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/12/2010 3:24:39 PM   
Bear0fAr


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There is a point here that I don't see anyone as yet addressing, and there are something mentioned here that quite honestly made me blink - not out of any disagreement with the statements but rather because it was something I'd never considered and it was something several of you mentioned.

Much appreciation for those who have participated and I still welcome anyone else's views. I hope to have some time this weekend to put my thoughts down here as well.

Still blinking,

Bear-

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/12/2010 7:35:11 PM   
Bear0fAr


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This is it. The first part, anyway.

John Norman is not my God

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/13/2010 12:15:10 AM   
starshineowned


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Greetings..

I read your musings Master Bear. It was very well written and make sense and supports logical reasoning as to why one would address themselves as Gorean. It also touched upon a nagging point in which you speak of "tenets". To this I agree and those are fairly often brought forward in conversations here. What still seems to be lacking is a actual working base..i.e. "Gorean philosophy contends that".

With philosophers they put it out there. People will read and either agree or disagree. With Gorean philosophy..it is always this elusive philosophy made by any persons who have read the books, and have just tagged on and seemingly just throw the phrase about at will.

I'm not trying to say that one could not exist. Just that there isn't really any specific base to which any person could agree or disagree with. Persons tend to agree and disagree with tenets of other philosophers works that Norman drew upon in ways to support his fictional world.

Any who that wasn't the road I was wanting to travel really. Just the gravel of Norman not having a definitive philosophy inwhich he put forth to be agreed or disagreed on by the rest of the philosophical community.

starshine

_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

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RE: "Illusions of Gor"; new book for 2011? (A... - 11/13/2010 9:03:05 AM   
focalss


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Here are some ideas,

I he has been captured by the Kurii and brainwashed then returned to earth without his memory something like how Marlenus lost his memory,

He is looking for a dominant mate and is testing her,

The Priest Kings put him in the witness protection program as a male slave,

The books were all just his fantasy,

It is not really the intro for the next book.

I have to say I am a little disturbed by the reference to the Twin Towers in the intro, I think it should have been left out.

On another serious note, I read in a bio somewhere that he has one or two daughers.  I wonder how his wife and children feel about his books.  Maybe his daughter or if he has grandchildren turned out to be dominant and he is trying to write something to resolve what he wrote in the past or his views have changed.

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