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Fear the stranger? - 12/3/2010 9:45:36 AM   
Arturas


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Joined: 2/21/2009
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Greetings,

It is said that goreans treat all strangers as enemies and most would agree that is used to justify a recognizably abrasive treatment of new people posting to the hallowed gorean threads.

Yet, do the sagas clearly show time and time again why it was foolish and even detrimental to treat the ultimate stranger Tarl Cabot as an immediate enemy?

With that reoccuring example, was Norman suggesting we should see strangers as native saga goreans changed to see the ultimate stranger Tarl Cabot as a great friend and ally in reaching their common goals or a deadly enemy they themselves made him by their own actions?

I wish you all well,
Arturas


Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/3/2010 9:57:33 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 37466
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Don't buy the assumptions, therefore I don't buy the deal.

I believe that strangers were treated warily and indeed they were treated as enemies.  Now, for the most part, I don't remember anyone actually getting killed, it seems that it was more a measure of fighting skills when they actually were attacked, otherwise it was a matter of wariness of an unknown quantity.

From the Havamal:

They know but unsurely who sit within
what manner of man is come:
none is found so good, but some fault attends him,
or so ill but he serves for somewhat.

So, like that, I think.

Jarl HJup

_____________________________

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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/3/2010 10:00:12 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline 		I can't comment on the books, but I've lived long enough to know that if you treat a stranger as a friend, you usually make a friend, and if you treat them as an enemy you usually make an enemy.

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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/3/2010 10:10:28 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16616
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Indeed. Initial strangers become acquainted.

Norman also tells us that Goreans on the whole are quite civil to each other.

Online, egos take the place of honing skills. Any two year old can criticize and say "Me!"

Life is very different when one's capability replaces talk, especially anonymous talk from a distance.

In fact, one of the recurrent themes rarely discussed (especially among those who see only the slavery meme) is the skill with which Tarl handles and leads men. From Tarl of Bristol to Bosk and back to Tarl, he understands throughout what motivates men and what will have them willingly and loyally follow, even in a harsh world. Jason doesn't have this skill for quite some time, and both of them have trouble similarly mastering women for quite a while (until they can finally grow out of cultural assumptions and into a more natural balance).

Contrast that with threads, like this one, that begin with criticisms, implicit in the old tired theme "I get it, you rest are missing it." What response can be expected from such an overture? This is absolutely something Tarl would never do, and an area of the books that deserves a close re-read.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 12/3/2010 10:12:09 AM >

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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/3/2010 11:36:26 AM   
Arturas


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Joined: 2/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Indeed. Initial strangers become acquainted.

Norman also tells us that Goreans on the whole are quite civil to each other.

Online, egos take the place of honing skills. Any two year old can criticize and say "Me!"

Life is very different when one's capability replaces talk, especially anonymous talk from a distance.

In fact, one of the recurrent themes rarely discussed (especially among those who see only the slavery meme) is the skill with which Tarl handles and leads men. From Tarl of Bristol to Bosk and back to Tarl, he understands throughout what motivates men and what will have them willingly and loyally follow, even in a harsh world. Jason doesn't have this skill for quite some time, and both of them have trouble similarly mastering women for quite a while (until they can finally grow out of cultural assumptions and into a more natural balance).

Contrast that with threads, like this one, that begin with criticisms, implicit in the old tired theme "I get it, you rest are missing it." What response can be expected from such an overture? This is absolutely something Tarl would never do, and an area of the books that deserves a close re-read.



I appreciate that you get it and I don't and I will certainly revisit it this weekend. Now, I honestly would appreciate hearing from you on topic. The topic is a stated supposition having to do with how the Sagas lead us to deal with strangers.

Arturas

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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/3/2010 12:56:07 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

It is said that goreans treat all strangers as enemies and most would agree that is used to justify a recognizably abrasive treatment of new people posting to the hallowed gorean threads.

Unh... who specifically, besides you of course, says that Goreans (initial cap, please) treat all strangers as enemies?

It is merely the case that in the Gorean language the word for stranger and enemy is the same, which is manfiestly not the same thing as treating every freaking stranger you meet as if he was literally an enemy. Rather, it simply recognizes and embodies the elementary wisdom that you don't know this person, that you are not a mind-reader, and that you may only get to be wrong once. And as you might expect from the fact that it is Gorean, this reflects man as nature has made him. The overarching organizing principle of the human brain is: Minimize danger.

As for new people posting, the one's who complain are almost uniform in their conviction that the ill treatment they get couldn't possibly have anything whatsofuckingever to do with their immaculate glow-in-the-dark selves, which confirms their whining as the bleatings of a narcissist. But hey, they are no enduring bother; they usually leave in short order. Only the worst cases stay around and keep trying.

K.

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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/3/2010 1:41:48 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		{fast reply}

Tal and greetings all....

Tarl was not a stranger. He was brought to Gor and his father was the Administrator of Ko-ro-ba. He was sponsored as a warrior by his father. That made him family and eventually a citizen of a city when he progressed enough, the equivalent to becoming of age, and could pledge the Home Stone. Jason is a better example of a stranger and he was enslaved, not treated as a future citizen.

Be well....

Malkinius


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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/3/2010 2:46:08 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Now, I honestly would appreciate hearing from you on topic.


You have--as I was replying to Ron, my "Indeed..." etc. is an agreement with his position rejecting the premise.

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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/3/2010 2:47:13 PM   
blacksword404


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Joined: 1/4/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

It is said that goreans treat all strangers as enemies( Who says?) and most would agree that is used to justify a recognizably abrasive treatment of new people posting to the hallowed gorean threads.
(Who are these most?)


Tal Arturas

Keep in mind these societies were armed to the gills. And if you were from an enemy Home Stone you were going to have a problem. What is your name? What Home Stone do you pledge? What is your business here? These are questions they might ascertain before they lower your threat level in their mind. Doesn't mean you have to be mean. Just careful. Less someone take advantage of your carelessness.

"I am Callisthenes, Captain of Port Cos," said Callisthenes.
"I am Aemilianus, Captain in Ar's Station," said the newcomer.
Two cloaks, as one, were hurled back. Revealed then in the back room of the tavern were the insignias of Port Cos and of Ar's Station. Two swords, as one, leapt from their sheaths. The girl screamed. I stepped back.
"Westside Crip cuz!" cried Callisthenes.
"Glorious Bloods!" cried Aseilians.

< Message edited by blacksword404 -- 12/3/2010 2:49:20 PM >

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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/3/2010 7:02:14 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Arturas, the only people I have ever seen who have used the stranger=enemy quote as an excuse to attack newbie’s tend to be those who also see the books as an excuse to justify any unreasonable behaviour or ones who haven’t really read the books. Most of us just dislike stupidity and laziness and feel no shame in saying so.

I would also disagree with this statement.

quote:

With that reoccuring example, was Norman suggesting we should see strangers as native saga goreans changed to see the ultimate stranger Tarl Cabot as a great friend and ally in reaching their common goals or a deadly enemy they themselves made him by their own actions?


Norman recognised a fundamental fact about humans, we divide the world into them and us, ever since the first tribe split into two there was an us as well as a them. It’s why racism will never go away, if the whole world became a mix of every race there is accents, those accents would then be the basis for racism, we are designed to look with suspicion upon the stranger.

When you add to this basic human trait the Gorean xenophobia of the cities and tribes, an understandable paranoia you can see why the two words would have the same base meaning.

After all most strangers were either outlaws or men looking to steal their first slave, once have had your wife/mother/daughter/slave stolen by a stranger you would not wish to repeat the experience after all. Strangers take what you love.

Goreans had no reason to love strangers, people rarely moved away from the city or tribe where they were born, they had no need, merchants were known and had a reason to move, strangers had none.

Cheryl

< Message edited by Cherylmazana -- 12/3/2010 7:05:50 PM >

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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/3/2010 8:46:15 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas



Greetings,

It is said that goreans treat all strangers as enemies and most would agree that is used to justify a recognizably abrasive treatment of new people posting to the hallowed gorean threads.

Yet, do the sagas clearly show time and time again why it was foolish and even detrimental to treat the ultimate stranger Tarl Cabot as an immediate enemy?

With that reoccuring example, was Norman suggesting we should see strangers as native saga goreans changed to see the ultimate stranger Tarl Cabot as a great friend and ally in reaching their common goals or a deadly enemy they themselves made him by their own actions?

I wish you all well,
Arturas





It is my opinion that Norman’s “reoccurring” statement pertaining to the enemy/stranger predicament is meant simply to imply that trust is an earned commodity and is not to be awarded frivolously.

To imply that it is a Gorean’s belief that all strangers are adversarial folk with malicious or hostile intent demonstrates an overwhelming lack of revision for the person implying as much. Goreans are indeed curious, adventurous and even suspicious towards the unfamiliar; and for them to judge the unknown on the side of caution seems to me rather………prudent.

So to I guess I have little to say beyond the echoing of what Kirata and a few others have so accurately stated.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 12/3/2010 8:49:26 PM >

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Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/3/2010 10:15:23 PM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		Evening,

Arturas, if someone knocks on your front door, a stranger, do you invite them in?   I was raised in Los Angeles, we had a shotgun in the coat closet, just in case.  No one was invited inside unless they were friends.  Why would you expect any less on a forum where people strive to keep things real?   Being civil, is not the same as calling someone "friend".   I have seen alot of politeness, patience and tolerance here, moreso then elsewhere.  There has also been the occassional interloper who has no desire to remain civil, and they have been treated accordingly.

If you have an open door policy at your house, welcoming any Tom, Dick or Harry into the living room, hopefully there is a life insurance policy in effect for star's sake.  I see people here behaving as I would expect them too if I or anyone else unkown to them were to seek entry.    Gorean or not, it's only logical :)

Lisa


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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/4/2010 4:43:11 AM   
wandersalone


Posts: 4568
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
Greetings,

It is said that goreans treat all strangers as enemies and most would agree that is used to justify a recognizably abrasive treatment of new people posting to the hallowed gorean threads.


If I may respond to the comment you made above Arturas.... I am not Gorean but have posted on this forum a miniscule number of times over the years and I wasn't treated rudely or disrespectfully by anyone. 

From reading the threads here religiously though my feeling is that if people post comments or questions on this forum and they appear genuine in their wish to learn or facilitate a discussion then people will openly respond.  If however they are coming here with a hidden agenda or to ask something idiotic they are shown the door fairly quickly.  Pretty much exactly like what happens in threads on the other parts of the message board.


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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/4/2010 9:47:00 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 37466
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUO_5EALZoM&feature=related

alternatively:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlSbSKNk9f0

Hjup

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/4/2010 9:48:11 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/4/2010 10:27:08 AM   
Anarrus


Posts: 475
Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

It is said that goreans treat all strangers as enemies and most would agree that is used to justify a recognizably abrasive treatment of new people posting to the hallowed gorean threads.

Unh... who specifically, besides you of course, says that Goreans (initial cap, please) treat all strangers as enemies?

It is merely the case that in the Gorean language the word for stranger and enemy is the same, which is manfiestly not the same thing as treating every freaking stranger you meet as if he was literally an enemy. Rather, it simply recognizes and embodies the elementary wisdom that you don't know this person, that you are not a mind-reader, and that you may only get to be wrong once. And as you might expect from the fact that it is Gorean, this reflects man as nature has made him. The overarching organizing principle of the human brain is: Minimize danger.As for new people posting, the one's who complain are almost uniform in their conviction that the ill treatment they get couldn't possibly have anything whatsofuckingever to do with their immaculate glow-in-the-dark selves, which confirms their whining as the bleatings of a narcissist. But hey, they are no enduring bother; they usually leave in short order. Only the worst cases stay around and keep trying.

K.



Kirata has it right. I believe that when JN wrote the Gorean word for stranger and enemy are the same, he was referring to the nature of humans to use caution, to be slighty distrustful, and to be wary of those we don't know as there's potential for them to do or cause us harm. JN might have used another word instead of enemy, but it seems enemy has some semantical punch behind it and covers the concept pretty well.

I haven't researched it yet and I attempted to find research online supporting it, but I'm sure there's a biologically inherited basis for humans to use caution when dealing with strangers to minimize danger. I'm sure way back in our biological heritage the ones who used caution and treated strangers as enemy's lived to pass on their genes, where as those who didn't excercise caution and distrust may not have lived to pass their genes on. It makes sense as a species to do that which keeps us alive to promote and pass on our genes.

It makes a whole lot of sense to me that JN had a basic understanding of the concept and mentioned it in the books as a basic Gorean concept. I believe it's a basic hard wired trait of all humans. I also believe that only recently in our western culture has the idea to trust and accept strangers been conditioned into many. I also think that idea is contrary to our speices and to what nature intends us to be. I like saying you can take the man out of the wild but you can't take the wild out of the man.

Be well

Anarrus

< Message edited by Anarrus -- 12/4/2010 10:29:36 AM >

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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/4/2010 10:59:03 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Odd that the topic heading is "Fear the stranger?". Fear? I do not believe in any forum have I ever seen someone misinterpret that the Gorean word for stranger and enemy are the same, into fearing a stranger.

Not much else for me to add, that has not already corrected the OP on his gross misinterpretation of something Gorean.

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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/5/2010 5:06:44 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 1332
Joined: 2/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I can't comment on the books, but I've lived long enough to know that if you treat a stranger as a friend, you usually make a friend, and if you treat them as an enemy you usually make an enemy.


Well said. It is a Truth written this way by Paul to the Galatians; "You reap what you sow".

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/5/2010 5:27:56 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 1332
Joined: 2/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

Evening,

Arturas, if someone knocks on your front door, a stranger, do you invite them in?   I was raised in Los Angeles, we had a shotgun in the coat closet, just in case.  No one was invited inside unless they were friends.  Why would you expect any less on a forum where people strive to keep things real?   Being civil, is not the same as calling someone "friend".   I have seen alot of politeness, patience and tolerance here, moreso then elsewhere.  There has also been the occassional interloper who has no desire to remain civil, and they have been treated accordingly.

If you have an open door policy at your house, welcoming any Tom, Dick or Harry into the living room, hopefully there is a life insurance policy in effect for star's sake.  I see people here behaving as I would expect them too if I or anyone else unkown to them were to seek entry.    Gorean or not, it's only logical :)

Lisa




Greetings,

I imagine that in some areas of the country things are this way. But not here; I do not treat any stranger at the door as an enemy and most likely will invite them in especially if the weather is challenging.

Unless I am afraid.

Do you suppose some areas of L.A. are as volent and unpredictable as some areas of Gor?

I wish you well,
Arturas.

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Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/5/2010 6:58:50 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 1332
Joined: 2/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Odd that the topic heading is "Fear the stranger?". Fear? I do not believe in any forum have I ever seen someone misinterpret that the Gorean word for stranger and enemy are the same, into fearing a stranger.

Not much else for me to add, that has not already corrected the OP on his gross misinterpretation of something Gorean.


Tal,

Fear is a normal response to the unknown and strangers are the epitome of "unknown". This truth is why I chose to use it in the topic heading. It is also true that strangers are only treated negatively not because we love them or are indifferent to them but because they are feared in some way.

Fear is a desired emotion used to sharpen our senses and quicken our response to possible danger. For literal Gor there was danger inherent with meeting strangers. It was a response based on real danger. It is a good and wise emotion, that when used appropriately, kept one free and alive on literal Gor. So, fear of the stranger in a violent world is why strangers are treated as enemies on Gor.

That is Gorean on Gor alone; I am certain the saying "all strangers are enemies" is not appropriate except on Gor and maybe south L.A; I don't live in either place and just because I am a gorean does not mean I just parrot a gorean saying and lose the ability to make intelligent judgments which is why I and others do not ever treat strangers as enemies. Instead, like Tarl Cabot we treat strangers as potential friends and allies and instead treat enemies as challenges and then again, like Tarl, we also still see them as future potential friends and allies at some point. That is very Gorean: you see Tarl and others in the Sagas turn enemies into friends and allies many times and one such example can be found of the enemy turned ally in Beasts of Gor.


Arturas

< Message edited by Arturas -- 12/5/2010 7:13:01 PM >

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RE: Fear the stranger? - 12/5/2010 8:44:34 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 7256
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Fear is a normal response to the unknown and strangers are the epitome of "unknown". This truth is why I chose to use it in the topic heading.

I can think of few "truths" more utterly ridiculous than characterizing other human beings as the epitome of the unknown. Indeed, the caution we observe with strangers arises from the fact that we know human beings only too well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

That is Gorean on Gor alone; I am certain the saying "all strangers are enemies" is not appropriate except on Gor and maybe south L.A; I don't live in either place and just because I am a gorean does not mean I just parrot a gorean saying and lose the ability to make intelligent judgments

The mistake you characteristically make, and in which you seem determined to persevere, is to imagine that however you personally do anything is "gorean" [sic] for the cause that you do it that way.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/5/2010 8:55:47 PM >

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