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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series


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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 12/23/2010 8:10:25 PM   
eponavet


Posts: 406
Joined: 8/18/2006
Status: offline 		Hi kisshou,

I was thinking about this topic and i think if i try to relate it back to anything Gorean, it seems like Frodo becomes a slave to the ring and ultimately, without Sam making the choice to act in accordance with the higher calling of the ideal (destroying the ring), Frodo would have failed. The blurrring of their defined roles and how they evolved seems to differ from the way many characters evolved in the books i've read so far in the Gor series. I'm not sure what other similarities exist (it does seem like LOTR had a fairly well defined caste system), but - i do love LOTR!

~ epona

< Message edited by eponavet -- 12/23/2010 8:11:00 PM >

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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 12/24/2010 3:47:54 AM   
FrankAr


Posts: 602
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Frodo followed an ideal , that of duty but Sam followed a person (Frodo).

That is why I see Frodo as free and Sam as a slave.


well wishes
kisshou


Greetings kisshou,

I would like to ask how you get this idea ? I will try to explain it in my words and you then can see why I think that this line is flawed...ok.

A mate comes around on the friday night and says to me that he is going out for a few drinks and then try to score. I say, yeah man I am up to going out and getting a few drinks, for I know that he is not good with the communication with the females so I have helped him out a few times in getting her warmed up with my talk and then transferring it over to him. Does this mean that I am his slave ?? I am going out on my free will to have a few drinks and have a few laughs, and talk away. Sam went with Frodo on his own free will, to accompany him, to help him, to give him the strength if he needed it, and to also get rich with the babes if he survived........just chuckles away and nearly thinking that he has just gone back to the 70's with some major green stuff.....ROFL.

Be well.

Frank Ar.



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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 12/24/2010 1:13:16 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Master Frank,

thank you so much for your post it has given me a lot to think about. I would have to go back and re-read lotr because I had always felt that Sam followed Frodo out of love for Frodo , not his commitment to a principle but it was probably my slave like mind putting that interpretation on it.

greetings eponovet,

thank you that is a great point you make. Do you see Arwin , the elf who fell in love with Aaragorn to be a slave or Free? She gave up her immortality to be with him.

well wishes
kisshou

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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 12/24/2010 1:15:31 PM   
Masterkat


Posts: 2
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		Yes, I must confess to have read these books, many times over. Classic fantasy, and very illuminating, in many aspects.

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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 12/24/2010 1:17:20 PM   
CerVeza


Posts: 156
Joined: 10/13/2010
Status: offline 		I was in the very place in New Zealand where it was filmed.

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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 12/24/2010 10:07:52 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		I always saw Frodo as weak and a whining, all the way through he complained and moaned.

Sam however was the much stronger man, when Frodo faltered he was there, he carried him when he had to, he stuck close to him all the way and never once faltered, where Frodo would have given up Sam helped him through.

Frodo was the leader but he was a slave to the ring, he was weak and foolish.

Sam was a follower but he was not a slave, not everyone can be the Ubar there always have to be those whom while strong defer to those who lead. It is better to be second or tenth and secure in yourself and your position than be first and useless in that position.

Cheryl


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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 12/27/2010 11:46:09 PM   
MasterBenedict


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Status: offline 		I have... & I love it!

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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 1/5/2011 2:13:18 AM   
Awareness


Posts: 1297
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline 		  I read them when I was 14.  They were astonishingly banal rubbish.

The reason is simple.  Generally speaking, novels can be written with varying levels of the MICE equation.  Mileau, Ideas, Characters and Events.  Every story contains these elements to a varying degree.

Tolkien's problem is that he is ALL mileau.  He lovingly constructed a rich fantasy world, overflowing with languages, history and peoples, then proceeded to bore the ever-lovin' fuck out of anyone with an IQ above that of a toadstool.

Peter Jackson's crowning accomplishment is to take 3 books - 2 of which are fundamentally about 2 characters walking and whining their way across Middle Earth - and turn them into a trio of actually watchable movies.

Tolkien essentially was a product of his society and so his novels and his characters express the social mores of that society.  In contrast, Gor actually flouts the current social mores - to an increasing level as time goes on.  Having said that, I personally believe that in a sense, the pendulum is swinging back to a more masculine definition of what constitutes manhood and the various social experiments which seek to erase the differences between the genders are being exposed for the ill-considered nonsense they always were.

To my mind, the reason Goreans have a PR problem is that many are astoundingly literal-minded and they try and use Norman's books as scripture.  Distilling down the stories to an essential set of principles is one thing.  Talking about "homestones" and using passages from the books as backup in a discussion is quite another.  The former is finding worth in a philosophy - the latter is aping a society which doesn't exist, except in John Norman's mind, and which may be completely incapable of functioning as described.

And not to put to fine a point on it Bear, but you're behaving like a cock.  The community here is probably quite capable of deciding what a worthy topic is without you playing hall monitor.


P.S.  There are a veritable boat-load of valid reasons why movies do NOT reflect books in their entirety.  People who comment on this rarely have the necessary background to understand why.  The simplest explanation is that movies have a constant requirement for something to be happening.  Novels do not.  Novels can wander off into non-events for as long as they like.  Movies cannot.  Not only is it phenomenally expensive, but it's also deadly to do so - movies must constantly entertain or the audience will become bored.

The second main reason is that novels can ramble on as long as they like.  Movies have 2 or so hours.  That requires some judicious selection of events when you adapt.  And the art of adapting a book to the screen is an extremely difficult one.

Study the art of writing screenplays and you'll learn why.

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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 1/5/2011 3:30:56 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 2351
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Awareness,

Thanks for your reply. Clearly we differ when it comes to our verdicts on LOTR! I do take your point about Tolkein's emphasis on Milieu, but I'm going to have to respectfully call you on the "bore the ever-lovin fuck out of anyone with an IQ above that of a toadstool" riff.

In part it's obviously a question of style and taste. I can say that so far your verdict on the LOTR almost exactly matches my verdict on the Gor books. But much as I find Lange's writing to be banal and the plot utterly predictable I wouldn't dream of suggesting that you'd have to have the IQ of a toadstool not to view the books in the same way I do.

My continued interest in Gor (and in ploughing through the books despite everything) relates to the "philosophy" that people have found in it.

One of the reasons that LOTR is interesting in the context of Gor is that both books have a significant following, and both have been the subject of a lot of debate both among amateur and professional philosophers.

I think you're right that the "literally minded" approach to Gor is one of the reason for Gor's poor PR, but I don't think it's the only reason.

One of the things that I really do struggle with is the question of whether this actually is a coherent philosophy to be drawn from the Gor series at all, beyond the "code, honor, strength, nature" which is typically how people distil Gor. This is interesting to me because if a person is going to claim to be "Gorean" there must be something identifiably "Gorean" about his or her thinking, and to be identifiably "Gorean" it has to be something that is grounded in the Gorean books, surely?





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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 1/5/2011 8:39:58 PM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 509
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Clearly we differ when it comes to our verdicts on LOTR! I do take your point about Tolkein's emphasis on Milieu, but I'm going to have to respectfully call you on the "bore the ever-lovin fuck out of anyone with an IQ above that of a toadstool" riff.


Greetings Master,

Agreed Also wanted to add, that there are many books considered literature classics which do this- Tolstoy and Hugo come to mind among others. Tolkien is in good company. This girl read the LOTR books when she was 9 and they have remained among her favourite books.

Well wishes,
anna

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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 1/9/2011 9:28:19 PM   
quixed77


Posts: 2
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline
quote:

literature classics which do this- Tolstoy and Hugo


Anna,
Your words seem to me clever in that they suggest it is not all that great a crime for a book to "bore-toadstools-IQ" or whatever. Sometimes I find that you need to get halfway through a book as long as Don Quixote or Infinite Jest before it becomes really enjoyable... initial build-up often creates a lot of slog.

Since this is an intersection of LOTR & Gor i'm posting here because I just finished watching lord of the rings, extended trilogy, started it yesterday. Yay. Such a good movie ;)

But I've also been reading a lot about Gor lately and came to this board in the first place to ask how one best starts reading Gor, and ended up in this thread. I assume just the first book, Tarnsman, is as good as any other. For a longtime reader and scifi/fantasy fan, they sound really exciting to read.

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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 1/10/2011 4:07:02 AM   
Awareness


Posts: 1297
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Awareness,

Thanks for your reply. Clearly we differ when it comes to our verdicts on LOTR! I do take your point about Tolkein's emphasis on Milieu, but I'm going to have to respectfully call you on the "bore the ever-lovin fuck out of anyone with an IQ above that of a toadstool" riff.

In part it's obviously a question of style and taste.
  Lord, no.  Tolkien set the template for 20th century fantasy and has been copied so many goddamn times, it's not funny.  Not least by Brooks with that Shannara nonsense.  Most people may try and copy style, but Brooks stole the mileau, the characters and the PLOT from Tolkien.

No, the primary problems with LOTR reside in the fact that most of its characters are cardboard cutouts who do not grow or change - Boromir and Aragorn being notable exceptions - and a plot that consists largely of two characters walking, whining and walking some more for two entire goddamn books.  This is in spite of the fact that Gandalf apparently has an eagle taxi service he elects not to share with our heroes for reasons which largely seem to revolve around plot convenience.  Alternatively, perhaps the big grey wizard was concerned about the size of Frodo's ass and figured that a long walk to Mount Doom was just the ticket to help work off some of that lard.  Yes, that's right, thousands of men sacrificed their lives at the Battle of Pellenor Fields purely because Frodo'd been indulging in too many goddamn cream cakes.

It's idiocy like this which makes me want to draw all over the book in red pen then throw it at the author's head with a note which reads "Plot stupid.  Characters suck.  Try again."

LOTR's idea of complex characterisation is reveling in the concept of  Hobbits as gluttonous versions of people from the west country, dwarves as short scotsman and elves as effeminate metrosexuals with a penchant for commenting on the weather.  (Legolas is practically obsessed with it!)

quote:

One of the reasons that LOTR is interesting in the context of Gor is that both books have a significant following, and both have been the subject of a lot of debate both among amateur and professional philosophers.
  Not really.  The Hobbit-Heads outnumber the Goreans by about a thousand to one.

quote:

One of the things that I really do struggle with is the question of whether this actually is a coherent philosophy to be drawn from the Gor series at all, beyond the "code, honor, strength, nature" which is typically how people distil Gor. This is interesting to me because if a person is going to claim to be "Gorean" there must be something identifiably "Gorean" about his or her thinking, and to be identifiably "Gorean" it has to be something that is grounded in the Gorean books, surely?
  Claiming to be Gorean is part of the problem.  Distilling the philosophy is one thing, but trying to copy the social templates of the civilisation - even in shadow form - is a pointless exercise and makes Goreans look like refugees from a role-playing convention.

People take this shit far too seriously.

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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 1/10/2011 12:22:48 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 2351
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

It's idiocy like this which makes me want to draw all over the book in red pen then throw it at the author's head with a note which reads "Plot stupid.  Characters suck.  Try again."


Aww c'mon... you never felt like shouting at Lange when Tarl produces yet another one of his utterly-incredible (and tiresomely predictable) feats of warriorship?

quote:


LOTR's idea of complex characterisation is reveling in the concept of  Hobbits as gluttonous versions of people from the west country, dwarves as short scotsman and elves as effeminate metrosexuals with a penchant for commenting on the weather.  (Legolas is practically obsessed with it!)


You know there's more to it than that. Although, I'll be stealing this quote and using it myself at some point ;-)

quote:


People take this shit far too seriously.



Don't they just!

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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 1/10/2011 9:31:03 PM   
Awareness


Posts: 1297
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Aww c'mon... you never felt like shouting at Lange when Tarl produces yet another one of his utterly-incredible (and tiresomely predictable) feats of warriorship?
  To be honest, I've never made it all the way through a Gor book.  I've started several, but they're excruciatingly bad and the writing has nerd wish-fulfillment written all over it.

Trust me, I'm only capable of dipping into and appreciating the philosophical precepts here and there.  Norman's characters are as deep as a puddle and watching him desperately trying to convey a character's internal conflict through the medium of his muddy prose is enough to make me reach for something with which to commit seppuku.

In fact, I'm considering the worth of creating my own spoof.  It concerns the world of Crank, where IBM robots are slaves to Mac robots.  People will align with my world and seek to emulate it by creating their own version of my perfect robot society.  And they shall have online forums and web sites.  And those foolhardy souls who mock them shall be called.... Crank Yankers.

quote:


quote:


LOTR's idea of complex characterisation is reveling in the concept of  Hobbits as gluttonous versions of people from the west country, dwarves as short scotsman and elves as effeminate metrosexuals with a penchant for commenting on the weather.  (Legolas is practically obsessed with it!)


You know there's more to it than that. Although, I'll be stealing this quote and using it myself at some point ;-)


Well he is!  "it grows dark.... snow is coming",  "a red sun rises, blood has been spilled this night", "my right knee aches - a low pressure system is currently centred on the plains but will travel east as dawn breaks resulting in a fine day with a light breeze" - the dude is a fucking fey version of Al Roker, for fuck's sake.

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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 1/11/2011 10:06:50 AM   
Koa


Posts: 283
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline 		I have not read the Lord of the Rings books, but I have read The Hobbit. I loved the book and the movies, im also looking forward to the Hobbit movie. I only hope it is as well done as the LotR movies.

Most stories have the protagonist struggle with some kind of conflict whether its physical, mental or moral, usually moral.


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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 1/14/2011 4:43:56 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

I have a huge fantasy fan and I am almost ashamed to admit that I have not read Lord of the Rings. I have started several times, but I always come to a point where I find the books boring and I put them aside to read something else now with the intention of picking them back up later, but I never do. One day I have to sit down and just force my way though LotR, as they are classic, no doubt about it. From what I have read I loved some parts of the books, but they do get very drawn out and boring at times, and I really do not like the hobbits as main characters as they are just bland.

I loved the Lord of the Rings movies, I get that they have cut some things from the books out, but seriously, what do you expect, it is impossible to change medium from book to film and keep it exactly the same.

My favorite fantasy series is Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan with Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind coming in on a close second. I think that is the problem why I have never finished reading Lord of the Rings, there is so many great fantasy books out there that I sort of get distracted from LotR which while it is good have many sections I find tedious.

I wish you well


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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 1/18/2011 12:16:00 AM   
lonley951sub


Posts: 10
Joined: 1/16/2011
Status: offline 		ive tried reading it but its too long of a book,i want to go thru it though

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RE: Has anyone read the Lord of the Rings series - 2/15/2011 1:56:26 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 8006
Joined: 2/11/2007
Status: offline 		That SOB J. R. R. Tolkien almost cost me a grade in high school. LOL

I loved the series so much, I read the whole thing front to back and could barely focus on my school work.


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