Collarchat.com

Create a
Free Account		 As the Collar Turns:
 Collarchat.com - BDSM Forum

Home  Login  Search 
Espanol  Deutsch  Francais  Italiano  Portugues 

Born to it?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> Born to it? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Born to it? - 12/21/2010 7:39:05 PM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		Evening everyone :)

I didn't want to hijack the other thread, but it triggered a question...so here I am.

When you (a collective you), read the Gorean books, were you already living by your own strict moral codes and standards, or was it something within the pages that triggered you to make some changes?   Here is where my question gets tricky.

If it was the books that spoke to you and caused a different path in your life, do you feel that it is slightly cheapened?   You read what someone else wrote, took it to heart and decided it was for you.   Those that already led disciplined, self mastered lives, didn't need to read what JN wrote, it was already a reality for them that may have been bolstered by the books, but it was not something new that had to be learned.

Do you view the self learned man of a slightly less ilk, because he followed another's ideals ?    Can there be such a thing as a born Gorean?   (please don't repond with "there can be no born goreans, since we live on eath")    Some men are born great, others learn it through study and learning....is one of a higher caliber then the other?

Hopefully this makes sense...it rattled around in my mind for a few days and I "hope" the typed words aren't a befuddled mess. 

Lisa



_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Born to it? - 12/21/2010 10:09:23 PM   
Hiskajirah


Posts: 929
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings Mistress Lisa

I believe there are born Goreans. The word Gorean isn't just a noun to me, but an adjective of a type of man as well. I also believe that there are self learned Goreans who studied the path with the help of John Norman's passages.

I believe that some men are born dominant and some women submissive. I also believe that the 2 are not always automatics by birth and are learned. Learned dominance for men and learned helplessness for women.

I don't necessary believe that the learned Gorean is any less of a man than the natural born would be. I think either could make or break himself.

I think the characteristics and nature of a man would define a born Gorean.

I hope that my post is welcome.


With respect and warm wishes,
~twinkle


_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Born to it? - 12/22/2010 2:07:41 AM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings twinkle.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hiskajirah

Greetings Mistress Lisa

I believe there are born Goreans. The word Gorean isn't just a noun to me, but an adjective of a type of man as well. I also believe that there are self learned Goreans who studied the path with the help of John Norman's passages.

I believe that some men are born dominant and some women submissive. I also believe that the 2 are not always automatics by birth and are learned. Learned dominance for men and learned helplessness for women.

I don't necessary believe that the learned Gorean is any less of a man than the natural born would be. I think either could make or break himself.

I think the characteristics and nature of a man would define a born Gorean.

I hope that my post is welcome.


With respect and warm wishes,
~twinkle


Welcome yes, correct no. The only ones here on Earth who should have a claim to having been born Gorean are those whose parents are Gorean before the child was born. If they want to claim to still be Gorean they have to be one who follows in their parent's path to become Gorean themselves. All those traits are nice but there is nothing uniquely Gorean about them.

Be well...

Malkinius

_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to Hiskajirah)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Born to it? - 12/22/2010 6:30:06 AM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 387
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline 		My personal journey to all of this had its own birth, of a sort, when I was 17, having just graduated high school and preparing to go to college in the fall.  I sat down one day, and rather intentionally took a look at myself, my life, and my personal philosophies.  I defined myself, to myself, that day.  From that day, through college, through heading out on my own, through several career journeys I lived by my own personal codes.  It was not until my middle thirties that I learned that there were others with similar codes, a community, as it were, who self defined themselves as "Gorean".  At that point, I started coming to the yahoo Gorean chat rooms, talking to the people....getting chased from some rooms as a newbie, and coming to learn my way around. 
   
Eventually (within about a year), I started reading the books.  And hated them.  Not the message...the writing.  Still, I read them...and reread them...and reread them.  I compared what was in the books, behind the books, as it were, to my own personal codes, and recognized a certain sameness to it.  And I stayed.  I still hate the books, and I still read and reread them, as I still acknowledge that this is all a journey within itself, a movement forward to an end with no end.
   
Am I a Gorean?  I believe so, some others might disagree...but all are welcome to have their opinions.  Personally, I still define myself as "Gorean despite the books"...but I still read and reread, and still recommend reading and rereading to others on the journey ...I still travel along the path, as it were, and I still grow and develop those codes that I chose for myself 30 years ago.

John, AKA Dinnardin

(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Born to it? - 12/22/2010 9:20:52 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinnardin

My personal journey to all of this had its own birth


John, AKA Dinnardin



I like this a lot.


_____________________________

S&M (Steve and Maria) persona libre de convencionalismos


Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to Dinnardin)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Born to it? - 12/22/2010 9:15:56 PM   
Saffleur


Posts: 247
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Lenoir NC
Status: offline 		Tal,

Born to it?Certainly not. Living to a set of codes? Absolutely.

In some ways we all live to a set of codes/morals/standards. It's the law of your country. Those laws dictate right and wrong. good or bad.

A learned man is just as good or worthy as a man who has lived that way via upbringing or natural evolution of his psyche. Some men are leaders and some are followers. There is such a thing as too many chiefs and not enough Indians (Yes, I know the correct term is Native American. It's a good analogy for this.). It doesn't mean the Indian is any less a man than the chief. He is just not as experienced as the chief. He has the potential to become the chief or his own chief even.

The man who does not follow the morals/standards is who is beneath the man that is vigilant.The other two are just different.

I wish you well,
Scott


_____________________________

When we see men of worth, we should think of equaling them; when we see men of a contrary character, we should turn inward and examine ourselves.

(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Born to it? - 12/23/2010 5:07:53 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 20705
Joined: 2/21/2007
Status: online 		Good Morning,

I apologize for My intrusion here, as I'm not Gorean.  However, I'm slightly confused.  Perhaps someone will be good enough to straighten Me out.

It's always been My understanding that for one to consider themselves Gorean, two things had to be in place.  Read the books (or be in the process of reading the books) and live the values.  If that is correct, I don't see how it would be possible to be born Gorean, because the reading of the books hadn't happened.  Not unless the mother had been reading the books out loud while pregnant.

If I'm incorrect, would someone mind educating Me?  I don't want to be operating under false assumptions.

As always, thank you in advance for your time.


LP


_____________________________

"Come to the edge, She said.
He said that he was afraid.
Come to the edge, She said.
He came. She pushed him,
And he flew . . ."


http://NE2010.net

Now running "Lady Pact's World".

(in reply to Saffleur)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Born to it? - 12/23/2010 5:51:54 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		No one is born Gorean, there has to be a self-identification of being Gorean.   As LP has pointed out, knowledge of what IS being Gorean is necessary.  You will not know that unless and until you actually take it upon yourself to read the books and do some internal evaluation.  Many times people recognize themselves within the philosophies as a whole concept but even that isn't enough to be Gorean -- there HAS to be a self-identification.  If you don't know what Gorean is, then you can't self-identify as being Gorean.  To me, only a fool would self-identify as something they don't understand or know what it is.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Born to it? - 12/23/2010 7:25:18 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16616
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

If it was the books that spoke to you and caused a different path in your life, do you feel that it is slightly cheapened?

This sentence is disturbing.

Do people who find a new career path in life feel that it is slightly cheapened?
Do people who find God along their paths feel that it is slightly cheapened?
Is anyone simply what we are at birth? Or should be?

Your allusion (some men are born great, some become great and some have greatness thrust upon them) comes from Shakespeare's "Twelfth Night," and is spoken by a delusional servant convincing himself a love note laid as a trap was meant for him, that the Countess is in love with him (and she definitely is not). It's equally delusional here.

quote:

You read what someone else wrote, took it to heart and decided it was for you.


If more people did this, our politics wouldn't be governed by an arbitrary left/right divide, as people would think for themselves, considering the merits of the positions, instead of allowing themselves to be manipulated by an imaginary paradigm.

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Born to it? - 12/23/2010 9:35:25 AM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		Quick note...

I do apologize for taking things to a "disturbing" level, I tend to ask questions that are out of the comfort zone..I am the original "why" child.

I don't think I worded it correctly however, so I will elaborate a little.    I wondered more about how people reacted to the reading of the books...if it was something already within them, and the books simply gave a label and meaning...or if they had no clue, thought the books were "cool" and decided to morph into a gorean.

If the latter, does the fact it is a forced change, give it less worth? 

I do believe people, through upbringing, genetics, etc, have what it takes to claim the label, once they have read all of what the label holds.   I call it being born to it....they are already ahead of the game.   As oppossed to someone who read the books and thought the whole concept was pretty nifty, but struggles constantly as they attempt to make the neccessary changes.   A mouse may wish to be a cat, but he wasn't born with the neccessary elements to achieve his desire.

Do people who find a new career path in life feel that it is slightly cheapened?
 
I am not speaking about a career path, but rather a persons moral codes and ethics...little different from changing careers.

Do people who find God along their paths feel that it is slightly cheapened?
 
Again, personal religious beliefs are not to be confused with personal moral fiber.   Read about any Catholic Priests lately?

Is anyone simply what we are at birth? Or should be?


I happen to believe we are genetically geared at birth...environment plays an important part in the final product, but yes..your family tree has something to do with how you turn out.   (35 years of breeding dogs has shown me just how important genes actually are).   Dogs don't make life choices, but they are born with temperments, aggressive or non, physical attributes, etc, how they are steered through life may make some changes, but the basics are there at birth.  Let me grab a person as an example.  Toby Keith.   He comes from a family of large men, outspoken beliefs and a definate similiarity of appearance.  Can you see him as a ballet dancer?  Even if he wanted to, it would be unnatural, something forced and....against what he was born as.

No Tim, I am not delusional.   My questions may not be entirely understood or even found to be disturbing, but they are legit and asked here because I hope to find answers :)     And yes, I know Shakespeare well,

And now the day begins....   In case I don't make it back here before the day.... Merry Christmas to all :)

Lisa




_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Born to it? - 12/23/2010 12:20:08 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 2351
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		[ED to fix formatting error]

I think you've asked some really interesting questions.

Bear in mind that I'm responding as someone with a real interest in Gorean thought, but that I'm still on the journey.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa
If it was the books that spoke to you and caused a different path in your life, do you feel that it is slightly cheapened?


I think that the opposite is true, when any book,event, or idea speaks to me, my life is enriched.



quote:


You read what someone else wrote, took it to heart and decided it was for you.   Those that already led disciplined, self mastered lives, didn't need to read what JN wrote, it was already a reality for them that may have been bolstered by the books, but it was not something new that had to be learned.


I'm sure that a lot of people come to the Gor Saga and find that it presents a set of moral beliefs and values that closely matches their own, while many will come to the Gor Saga and have their beliefs and values changed.

quote:


Do you view the self learned man of a slightly less ilk, because he followed another's ideals ?


Not at all, it was his choice to follow those ideals. Some belief systems go further - giving "converts" greater status than those that are born into the culture/belief system.

quote:


Can there be such a thing as a born Gorean?   (please don't repond with "there can be no born goreans, since we live on eath")    Some men are born great, others learn it through study and learning....is one of a higher caliber then the other?


In order to avoid the utterly controversial topic of "What is a Gorean", I'm going to read this as "Is it possible to be born with Gorean values..."

And, my short answer is no. I think it is possible to be born with a strong set of predispositions towards having Gorean values. I believe that we carry genetic predispositions - But your experience with dogs (which is much much greater than mine - although I grew up with a couple of Crufts champions and am surrounded by gun dog breeders among my aunts and cousins) will have shown you that in a litter bred from two champions you might get one or two potential champions, you'll get a couple of "middling dogs" and you'll often get a couple of runts. Where it comes to temperament, there's a lot of research evidence from Russia (where I think they did over 100 generations of research on Arctic foxes) that you can very reliably breed temperament into dogs (or arctic foxes) but that it's not completely reliable - So genes make a predictor, not a determining factor.

So while I think I was born with a certain set of predispositions (my "nature") I've also developed considerably as I've grown and learned (nurture), so I'd me more inclined to say the balance was 10% nature, 90% nurture.

But while I don't think you can be "born" with a set of values that closely matches Gorean values, I think that you can come into adulthood with a set of values that closely match Gorean values.

This all preassumes that you can find two people who actually agree on what "Gorean values" are of course ;-)

< Message edited by crazyml -- 12/23/2010 12:21:56 PM >

_____________________________

My snark holiday is over

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Born to it? - 12/23/2010 2:43:29 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16616
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Lisa,

Clarification--you'll see I did not suggest you were delusional. The character in Twelfth Night is the delusional one.

For the rest, I simply strongly disagree. If everything is set at birth, then choices don't matter, and no one has responsibility.

The main heroes of Gorean literature, Tarl and Jason, clearly do change, and choose to do so. And responsibility is a cornerstone of Gorean principles.

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Born to it? - 12/23/2010 8:31:40 PM   
Hiskajirah


Posts: 929
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		I also apologize because my answer was in regards to this..

Mistress Lisa said "....if it was something already within them, and the books simply gave a label and meaning.."

With that even though my answer is incorrect to most, I think I still need to believe it's possible.

Only certain type of people can read the books, use it as a foundation and grow, while others never will.

I do believe that all those who claim to be Gorean has to have read the books.

Respectfully,
~twinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

Quick note...

I do apologize for taking things to a "disturbing" level, I tend to ask questions that are out of the comfort zone..I am the original "why" child.

I don't think I worded it correctly however, so I will elaborate a little.    I wondered more about how people reacted to the reading of the books...if it was something already within them, and the books simply gave a label and meaning...or if they had no clue, thought the books were "cool" and decided to morph into a gorean.

If the latter, does the fact it is a forced change, give it less worth? 

I do believe people, through upbringing, genetics, etc, have what it takes to claim the label, once they have read all of what the label holds.   I call it being born to it....they are already ahead of the game.   As oppossed to someone who read the books and thought the whole concept was pretty nifty, but struggles constantly as they attempt to make the neccessary changes.   A mouse may wish to be a cat, but he wasn't born with the neccessary elements to achieve his desire.

Do people who find a new career path in life feel that it is slightly cheapened?
 
I am not speaking about a career path, but rather a persons moral codes and ethics...little different from changing careers.

Do people who find God along their paths feel that it is slightly cheapened?
 
Again, personal religious beliefs are not to be confused with personal moral fiber.   Read about any Catholic Priests lately?

Is anyone simply what we are at birth? Or should be?


I happen to believe we are genetically geared at birth...environment plays an important part in the final product, but yes..your family tree has something to do with how you turn out.   (35 years of breeding dogs has shown me just how important genes actually are).   Dogs don't make life choices, but they are born with temperments, aggressive or non, physical attributes, etc, how they are steered through life may make some changes, but the basics are there at birth.  Let me grab a person as an example.  Toby Keith.   He comes from a family of large men, outspoken beliefs and a definate similiarity of appearance.  Can you see him as a ballet dancer?  Even if he wanted to, it would be unnatural, something forced and....against what he was born as.

No Tim, I am not delusional.   My questions may not be entirely understood or even found to be disturbing, but they are legit and asked here because I hope to find answers :)     And yes, I know Shakespeare well,

And now the day begins....   In case I don't make it back here before the day.... Merry Christmas to all :)

Lisa





_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Born to it? - 12/23/2010 8:39:48 PM   
Hiskajirah


Posts: 929
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings Master

Thank you for welcoming my answer even so.


Sincerely,
~twinkle

Edited to change an error

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Greetings twinkle.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hiskajirah

Greetings Mistress Lisa

I believe there are born Goreans. The word Gorean isn't just a noun to me, but an adjective of a type of man as well. I also believe that there are self learned Goreans who studied the path with the help of John Norman's passages.

I believe that some men are born dominant and some women submissive. I also believe that the 2 are not always automatics by birth and are learned. Learned dominance for men and learned helplessness for women.

I don't necessary believe that the learned Gorean is any less of a man than the natural born would be. I think either could make or break himself.

I think the characteristics and nature of a man would define a born Gorean.

I hope that my post is welcome.


With respect and warm wishes,
~twinkle


Welcome yes, correct no. The only ones here on Earth who should have a claim to having been born Gorean are those whose parents are Gorean before the child was born. If they want to claim to still be Gorean they have to be one who follows in their parent's path to become Gorean themselves. All those traits are nice but there is nothing uniquely Gorean about them.

Be well...

Malkinius


< Message edited by Hiskajirah -- 12/23/2010 8:41:14 PM >

_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Born to it? - 12/24/2010 6:37:09 AM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1072
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		Love these quiet moments...clocks all ticking, dogs snoring and the house is full of peace :)   Giving me a few seconds to respond.

crazyml,

For the most part, unless fertility drugs are given, humans tend to have their offspring one at a time.  Although, in reference to dogs, the beauty of line breeding is that your ratio is easier to predict.  I won't get into details in this thread, since this isn't dog breeding 101, but by studying pedigrees and lining them up in a particular manner, I am pretty sure of the consistency I will achieve.

Tim, 
I agree with you that it's not 100 percent in the genes, environment does play an important part.  However, what we enter this world with in the form of genotype, I feel, is an intricate piece to our life long puzzle.   Just look at all the American Idol wannabes who want to be singers, train for it, pay money to instructors....and still can't carry a tune.  :)   On the flip side, there are probably hundreds of people born with the gift, who never put it to use due to their environment.


twinkle,

Thank you.  :)   It appears you have understood some of what I was stating. 

Merry, Merry everyone!



_____________________________

"Harry Potter is all about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight, is all about how important it is to have a boyfriend"
--- Stephen King

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Born to it? - 12/24/2010 10:30:00 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Lisa

Nature or nurture the endless argument. Personally I believe that we are a mix of both, for example my sister and I both have totally different values and moral codes and yet we were both bought up in the same household and went through many of the same childhood experiences. 

One of the main differences is that she from a very young age learned to blame others for her mistakes, while I learned to accept responsibility for my own, refuse to accept responsibility for what others do, and try not to make the same ones twice. She however never makes mistakes, others are always responsible. This is a basic trait of our personalities that could be seen from the start.

It’s the same with the Gorean books, you can read them and think Bingo this is what I have always lived by even if I have never been shown it elsewhere and it goes against what society now says is right, you can read them and think wow what a great way of seducing needy women, or you can read them and think I can make money out of women who are desperate for a Gorean master.

However no matter how you react to them it cannot cheapen what has gone before, either the seeds were within you just waiting for the catalyst to show you what you knew but couldn’t define, or it wasn’t. But anyone who reads these books and suddenly decides to change their life around 180 degrees is most likely a con man who has just seen another way of getting what they want. And that doesn’t matter if they use philosophy, sex or religion.

Cheryl


_____________________________

Sometimes just because it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, doesn’t mean it is a duck, it could instead be a plastic replica that leads ducks to their ruin.

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Born to it? - 12/26/2010 11:51:22 AM   
Arturas


Posts: 1332
Joined: 2/21/2009
Status: offline 		Greetings to the Original Poster,

“Born with it?” is the original post subject. I assume “it” is an understanding and actionable belief in master morality and the resultant positive impact on one’s life also generally thought of as achieving “greatness”. To this audience it is “being Gorean”. To others it is simply the way it is.

“It” is sometimes unlearned growing up in a modern western society but can be learned, restored or awakened and even reinforced by many means including but not limited to reading the Sagas. These means include upbringing in an old family, the readings of the classics, the reading of Friedrich Nietzsche or other close contact with and influence by society's elite families; those who have power. These other learning or reawakening experences are present in many contemporary great men and women who are not influenced by the Sagas and are the “self learned men and women” you mention. These I cannot think less of because they are self taught outside the Sagas. Nice post btw.

Well wishes for a very happy holiday,

Arturas

It means "bear" and it's English translation is "Arthur"

(in reply to AlwaysLisa)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Born to it? - 12/26/2010 6:45:59 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
It means "bear" and it's English translation is "Arthur"[/font][/size]


In what language does "Arturas" mean bear?

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Born to it? - 12/26/2010 7:34:30 PM   
Saffleur


Posts: 247
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Lenoir NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
It means "bear" and it's English translation is "Arthur"[/font][/size]


In what language does "Arturas" mean bear?


It's actually Bear OR Stone in Gaelic. Not sure why both were not offered by him.


_____________________________

When we see men of worth, we should think of equaling them; when we see men of a contrary character, we should turn inward and examine ourselves.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Born to it? - 12/26/2010 7:58:10 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline 		Ah cool :) Thanks.

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to Saffleur)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> Born to it? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2012
Collarchat.com is a member of the Free Speech Coalition
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.297