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ORIGINAL: osf


I didn't say change couldn't happen but one needs to be sure it is possible before beginning a relationship

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ORIGINAL: lally2

somewhere else a thread evolved from the topic of changing in order to adapt to another person in youre life and how much do we do that or are prepared to do that.  into - if a sub doesnt change enough to accept dominance then ultimately they are not submitting.

i dont really see it so much as an issue of changing in order to adapt to a person, but, from a subs perspective its more about trusting youreself to relinquish control.

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i dont believe we do change supersonically, we adapt for sure.  but surely its more about trusting ourselves to absorb the changes that will take place without the fear of losing our identity along the way.

is this a big issue - failure to 'change'.  is it really about not submitting.  or is it more, as i suspect, more about not allowing youreself to trust the process.

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im curious what experience people have had from both sides of the kneel with this.

i know where ive evolved from, but im not going to write that now.

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

But do you see how someone could use that to explain her lack of submission to someone that she may have agreed to submit to?  I am going to play Devil's Advocate here for this post.  Things are going along and she is submitting to this and to that and to this...but they are things that she would normally do for any partner, vanilla or dominant.  And there may even be some things that she does that she would not do for just any partner but which she might do for a great majority.  Then, comes that day when something is asked for that is beyond the easy...or worse yet, something is asked for that is not all that hard (she may even have done it before)...and she balks.  Rather than lay it on herself...her own behavior...is it not easier for some to say that their non-submission is coming from an issue of trust within themselves? 
Don't get me wrong...please.  I understand that trust has to be built.  But how long should the process take?  How many times of running into an issue of "not trusting the process" should a dominant face up to and try to guide her through before he begins to question how much trust his submissive really does have in his leadership?

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ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

But do you see how someone could use that to explain her lack of submission to someone that she may have agreed to submit to?  I am going to play Devil's Advocate here for this post.  Things are going along and she is submitting to this and to that and to this...but they are things that she would normally do for any partner, vanilla or dominant.  And there may even be some things that she does that she would not do for just any partner but which she might do for a great majority.  Then, comes that day when something is asked for that is beyond the easy...or worse yet, something is asked for that is not all that hard (she may even have done it before)...and she balks.  Rather than lay it on herself...her own behavior...is it not easier for some to say that their non-submission is coming from an issue of trust within themselves? 
Don't get me wrong...please.  I understand that trust has to be built.  But how long should the process take?  How many times of running into an issue of "not trusting the process" should a dominant face up to and try to guide her through before he begins to question how much trust his submissive really does have in his leadership?

This hits on a very interesting issue that I've thought about for some time: that submission, in a certain sense, has to be measured by the transcendence of comfort zones. In the way that (based on an old adage that I've forgotten the entirety of) "courage" has to be measured by a person being in difficult and potentially painful situations. If someone has lived a life of complete comfort and leisure, how can you determine their 'courage'?

I think it's entirely possible for two people to be so finely attuned to each other that a functional obedience-based relationship can happen without there ever being a real slip because no difficult conflict ever shows up. It's certainly an attractive possibility, but not very likely.

In most cases, though, the mettle of a relationship will be built by the ability to drive over the speedbumps (with, in a general sense, the s-type needing to submit where uncomfortable and the D-type needing to make appropriate, sensible relationship-decisions where uncomfortable). This, in the end, comes down to degrees of trust (in a more pervasive sense than normally used). And that is typically noticeable based on the degree of effort put into the relationship and how often an adversarial, suspicious mindset appears to be the default reaction, rather than the aforementioned trust.

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ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

People are naturally scared of any process that feels like a loss of autonomy or a loss of "self". Everything about us has the potential for change. Some people just become attached to a certain self-concept and do not wish to deviate from that. Then again, that very thing could be said about being slave-minded in such a way that the desire to adapt is paramount.

i wonder how much of being a slave is about wanting to absorb change and adapt to their Master - are subs and slaves change junkies?  in a way stretching to accommodate anothers expectations to adapt, means that most must have a strong 'change' thrust going on in there.  those that find it hard to change or are wearing those suspicion-coloured-glasses must have a tougher time.

This really becomes a question of how much someone is genuinely interested in yielding or what someone's potential for doing such is (depending on which prerequisites are met).

i agree.  im going to assume that most subs or slaves who are not kink-only wired must want on some level, to yield.  the problem will always be i think - how do you get a person to trust themselves to trust someone else on a fundamental level and to what level.
 
i wonder if once a level of trust has been reached whether the changes that occur start to snowball.
 
im curious about this process, i think it could be as limitless as the people involved - once that trust is gained.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

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ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

People are naturally scared of any process that feels like a loss of autonomy or a loss of "self". Everything about us has the potential for change. Some people just become attached to a certain self-concept and do not wish to deviate from that. Then again, that very thing could be said about being slave-minded in such a way that the desire to adapt is paramount.

i wonder how much of being a slave is about wanting to absorb change and adapt to their Master - are subs and slaves change junkies?  in a way stretching to accommodate anothers expectations to adapt, means that most must have a strong 'change' thrust going on in there.  those that find it hard to change or are wearing those suspicion-coloured-glasses must have a tougher time.

This really becomes a question of how much someone is genuinely interested in yielding or what someone's potential for doing such is (depending on which prerequisites are met).

i agree.  im going to assume that most subs or slaves who are not kink-only wired must want on some level, to yield.  the problem will always be i think - how do you get a person to trust themselves to trust someone else on a fundamental level and to what level.
 
i wonder if once a level of trust has been reached whether the changes that occur start to snowball.
 
im curious about this process, i think it could be as limitless as the people involved - once that trust is gained.

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ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP

To me it indicates a basic lack of compatibility. I'm incapable of changing my core personality and beliefs.

I think this has hit the nail squarely on the head.
From my then submissive position I always strove to necome what I felt was a 'better' submissive. Looking back it always was a matter of incompatabilty.... my attempt to change myself in order to fit. Of course it's a process doomed to failure as what happened was that the 'inner' me struggled and eventually fought back. Released myself. And walked.
It was not a failure in submission.
It's all a question of uniqueness unfortuneately. A question of two people who are uniqyes finding one another. if you have a dynamic within a compatable, loving relationship then I think you have everything. The submission fits the dominance and vice versa.
I am currently finfing that the one who is submitting to me at the moment is absilutely unqie and I love that uniqieness. And he doesn't jave to change one iota. It's rare and quite beautiful.

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ORIGINAL: RCdc

I'm not so sure about the whole, trusting yourself to relinquish control. That's a hesitance that I cannot understand when undertaking a relationship. I'm not saying that everyone is brave to wade in head first, but if you're hesitant over yourself, then I think that being in a relationship with another isn't a good thing at that time. Sort out yourself first, then find a relationship. I know it's not always ideal, but people want to move into shit so fast these days and it's almost a recipe for failure.

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ORIGINAL: lally2

i dont think im talking about core changes or stuff like how i fry an egg or make coffee - i think the changes i mean and were meant were all about that adaptation period.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

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ORIGINAL: LPslittleclip

some parts of my self i dont want to change like my helping nature. for those things i would have a hard time trying to change them as it is so much a part of me. luckly my Mistress enjoys this part of me so no change there. how i greet someone or where i sit with my mistress was a change easily done as it was not a major change in my basic personality. as i trust my Mistress i only question something that i do not fully understand or need clairification to enable me to complete the task

No, I wouldn't want to change those parts of you that I consider core parts of your personality.  That's part of why I wanted you in the first place.  Still, we've had changes.  Certainly in our positions in attitudes, if not personalities. 

I see what lally is saying here in that case.  If you hadn't had trust in Me and trust in yourself, this dynamic wouldn't be where it is today.  Part of that had to happen in you.  Yes, it had something to do with where I was leading us, but that had to be an internal process for you as well.

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ORIGINAL: darkenchantment
Failure to change = lack of submission? No, I don't think so. I think it more likely involves a relationship that is not really going anywhere; or perhaps one in which people have become safe and comfortable in their ways. Change can be a very positive thing; and as has been said earlier, also a very scary thing. For some, its only possible with much kicking and screaming - and not of the arousing kind! To be in a relationship with someone who nurtures your best abilities and requires you to grow into the best you can be, for both of you, is a beautiful thing. Yet, like everything else in this world, maybe its not for everyone. But for those who seek it, a passage to real joy.

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ORIGINAL: sblady

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ORIGINAL: osf


I didn't say change couldn't happen but one needs to be sure it is possible before beginning a relationship

Again, absolutely.

However, if one isn't willing to make said changes, what's the purpose of pursuing a relationship? At times it appeared that I should be open to change simply because I clicked that little submissive box. There's a person behind that box with their own set of beliefs; some of those beliefs cannot or will not be compromised for anyone.

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ORIGINAL: SourandSweet

What kind of change are we talking about?

Physically I've changed.  He 'made' me have my very long hair cut to shoulder length.  I cried at the time, but afterwards had to admit that it did look better, and now I'm the one who reminds him I need a trip to the salon again!

... then theres weight loss, fitness, body mods -

Mentally I've changed.  I've started to have more confidence in myself and in my abilities.  Hey - I've got the most wonderful dom that ever walked - I can't be that terrible after all!

this is a powerful change, one i can admit to too.  accepting who and what i am means that i understand myself far better and why i am the way i am.  so now, being more self aware i have become more self assured.  this is one of the reallly great things that comes with submission i think.  the realisation that we are not push overs, that in our own right we're very strong and we can choose who we are submissive with.

Emotionally I've changed.  I'm stronger and won't take tolerate anyone treating me badly.  I'm more capable of telling people what I really think/ feel.

yes! - its odd isnt it! - how did that happen. 

I couldn't have done any of this if I didn't trust both him and the strength of our relationship.

From the 'kink' side it's more complicated.  He's a sadist.  I'm not a masochist - not emotionally, physically, not in any way.  We didn't plan to fall in love but we did.  I haven't changed in that I'm still not a masochist, but I have changed in that physically I can take more from him than I ever would for any other man.  Part of that is due to my trust that he may hurt me, but would never harm me (an important distinction for me).  Part is due to the fact that I've simply got more used to it.

for me its about being in submission to a someone i want to please - if im not then im a full on wimp, if i am i can take far more than id ever imagine.  it must have something to do with endorphins maybe??

What hasn't changed are my moral/ world views.  We differ alot on many of our beliefs.  He could technically, for example, make me eat meat, but he could never make me enjoy doing so!  He wouldn't even attempt to change the core of 'me' much as that 'me' may irritate him at times!  As he says, my imperfections make me perfect.

agreed.  the core of you is who he was attracted to in the first place, so why would he change that.

:-)

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Don't get me wrong...please.  I understand that trust has to be built.  But how long should the process take?  How many times of running into an issue of "not trusting the process" should a dominant face up to and try to guide her through before he begins to question how much trust his submissive really does have in his leadership?

hm, good question. im glad this has been brought up.  its a joint responsibility isnt it, in the end.  how much does a sub want this and how far is a sub prepared to go.  i have to go back to the idea that a person needs to trust themselves with their own emotions and feelings and reactions to a person or an action or event.  if they are insecure in those areas then its an internal issue not an external (Dom) issue.  i dont happen to think it is about trusting the Dom, if the relationship has grown and developed otherwise.  i think its about trusting themselves to handle it.  so then someone could say 'but ah, thats when the Dom mops up, holds the shaken sub and eases her through' - and id agree, but if the sub lacks trust and security within themselves they are unlikely to be able to trust anyone else sufficiently either.  when a person has such a deep trust issue going on its then i suppose a question of - youve hit a limit and can go no further.  if its play theyve done before with someone else but wont with theyre Dom then thats a bit odd really - maybe they went home and cried for a week and vowed they wouldnt try that again - but again that brings us back to trusting the Dom and of course not always getting to choose the things they like to do against the things theyd prefer not to do or hate to do.  then id surmise that theyre idea of submission hasnt ridden that road bump yet and taken them beyond - its all about them.  maybe thats a bit harsh.  but having been that way myself in the early days i think im reasonably qualified to suggest it.

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im curious what experience people have had from both sides of the kneel with this.

i know where ive evolved from, but im not going to write that now.

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant