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Strong Goreans II - 2/15/2011 1:51:47 PM

Arturas

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Gorean strength. Can it be defined by it anthesis, Gorean weakness?

What of weak Goreans? What makes them weak? What is "weakness" in a Gorean man or woman, free or not?

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< Message edited by ModTwentyOne -- 2/15/2011 2:22:24 PM >

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RE: Strong Goreans II - 2/15/2011 3:36:54 PM

kisshou

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Greetings Master Arturas,

do you think that in the books(on the planet Gor) if a free person chose slavery over death that made him weak or smart?

(I am talking about in the books, not if this happened here on earth)

well wishes
kisshou

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RE: Strong Goreans II - 2/15/2011 9:54:12 PM

Cherylmazana

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There are a few things that make a Gorean weak.

A free man having a slave morality.
A free man wishing to be a slave.
A man who cannot control his slave because being in love makes it harder for him to discipline her.
A man who allows women to manipulate him because he does not realise it is being done.
A free woman wishing to be a slave but unable or unwilling to accept that aspect of her personality.
A woman free or slave wishes to act as a man and who does not embrace her femininity.
A slave who is in control of her owner.
Anyone who is unhappy with their life and who doesn’t do their best to change the circumstances.
Anyone who is unable to find joy in being who they are

Cheryl

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RE: Strong Goreans II - 2/15/2011 10:06:01 PM

Cherylmazana

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Kisshou, in Japan it was honourable to commit suicide rather than be captured which is why prisoners of war were treated so badly. They choose to follow their own beliefs and not die, and in so doing survived which by our culture was the right thing to do.

Whose beliefs do you then follow? Should they have all died to be good Japanese? Here they were welcomed back, if they were Japanese they most likely would not have been.

I am not Japanese, for me my code is to live and hope to escape/be released.

It is the same for the Goreans of the books, a Gorean warrior would have to choose between following his culture and dying honourably or living and then accepting that he was now an outcast. It is not the decision that makes you weak, it is how you deal with the consequences.

Tarl whined and cried and was made weak by his choice, if he had held his head high and said I don’t believe that this custom is right he could have been made stronger.

Cheryl

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RE: Strong Goreans II - 2/16/2011 9:11:32 AM

Arturas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Greetings Master Arturas,

do you think that in the books(on the planet Gor) if a free person chose slavery over death that made him weak or smart?

(I am talking about in the books, not if this happened here on earth)

well wishes
kisshou

Greetings kisshou,

I think, that choosing slavery over death left Tarl alive to fight another time and regain his freedom and turn the tables on his captor. I think this was smart and strong even though this went against his "warrior’s code".

The lesson here for real life is to be strong in protecting your own vital interests such as your life, or even quality of life if I can make that reach, when threatened by abstract beliefs impressed on you by others. His Warrior Code is an abstract belief system that required him to choose death over enslavement. In a sense that code enslaved him to its unyielding dictates, if I can reach a little bit more.

Please also see Cheryl's post on the subject. She makes an excellent point on how Tarl internally turned this into a negative and let that control his feelings and weaken his judgment about himself, how Tarl turned strength into weakness with his unjustified remorse over doing what was really the only thing to do.

Well wishes
Arturas

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When her will bends to yours she will blossom like a flower under the warm spring rain and bright radiant morning star. She will surrender her all to you and lay in your arms thankful to join her soul with yours, her Master.

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RE: Strong Goreans II - 2/17/2011 6:23:04 AM

kisshou

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Greetings,

thank you both for your time in replying to my question. While I don't feel it is my place to refute your answers I have to admit to being disappointed by the answers because it was my understanding that caste code is more meaningful than cultural or abstract beliefs.

Tarl took a vow and declared he would live a certain way then proceeded not to do so.

well wishes
kisshou

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RE: Strong Goreans II - 2/17/2011 8:38:59 AM

OrionTheWolf

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Greetings kisshou,

Tarl lost his honor. The primal instinct to survive, superceded his vow to uphold and external code. This led to Tarl rediscovering himself, and in the process going through many different phases of development. Did it make him weak? While it was his choice, I believe it revealed a human weakness, as well as a fault in his morality. He accepted, and vowed to uphold an external code, without truly anamyzing it. I also believe that he held honor as something that is inflexable, when in fact our codes are fluid, like our blood. There are no absolutes, and there will always be an exception. When an exception occurs, we must first admit it, then examine it. Is it a fault of the code, the person, the circumstance, or is it an anomoly? Once this is determined, then growth from it can happen.

Now where Tarl shows human strength, is in a quote I like to use "we often learn more from our failures, than our successes." Is it disappointing when someone does not hold to their word? Of course it is, and by my code dishonorable. Have I ever been dishonorable by my own code? Yes. Have a learned from those? I would like to think so. I would like to think there are many morals conveyed in the stories, and as we each gain a different perspective, it is a reflection of the point we are at in our journey, of being human.

Orion

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RE: Strong Goreans II - 2/17/2011 11:28:41 AM

Arturas

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FR

Excellent posts. Please continue as you see fit.

Arturas

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When her will bends to yours she will blossom like a flower under the warm spring rain and bright radiant morning star. She will surrender her all to you and lay in your arms thankful to join her soul with yours, her Master.

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RE: Strong Goreans II - 2/18/2011 6:02:09 AM

kisshou

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Greetings Master Orion,

thank you so much. For the characters in the books it showed that to take a vow of death before dis-,honor is one thing but until you are faced with the choice you do not know how you will react. I guess no one is in a position to judge the rightness or wrongness of an action in that situation.

In American society people break vows all the time , the divorce rate, political promises, infidelity. It is in the news in our faces every day. I feel it has rendered the taking of a vow or an oath basically useless.

The interesting thing about the men who live by the Gorean philosphy, here on earth that I have met, is that they won't make promises. They just don't , at least this slave girl has never been able to wheedle a Gorean into making one.

I guess it would be a different topic of discussion but I wonder if Goreans make vows or take oaths or if they adopt a more I will live as best I can attitude. That because of studying the books and seeing what Tarl did that it changed the way they look at vows.

Well wishes
kisshou

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