RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, really. it is really, really true.

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, really. it is really, really true.

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RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/16/2011 2:49:24 PM

Arturas

Posts: 1332
Joined: 2/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

This is great and wonderful and stuff but let's get back on track.

Is BDSM part of the Sagas? What about this...I see sadism in whipped and starved in this context. I see BDSM style roleplay in "you may fight your Master. He will, if he wishes, allow this to prolong the sport..."
Wait right here...sport...this is what the Evil Black Hearted BDSM Leather Master does with his submissive, fun, sport, they are the same here, for his pleasure. But only his? No, many times I see the kajira uniformly enjoying her conquest and the pleasureable sport of her Master. I remember Tarl tying his kajira of the moment with leather bindings while she is laying helpless already, only for his "sport". Goreans, I give you the truth. You are free to get up and enjoy the pleasure of a Gorean without losing your vir..I mean morality.

quote:

On page 12 of Tribesman of Gor, “You are slave," I said. "You are owned. You are a female. You will be forced to be a woman. If you were free, and Gorean, you might be permitted by men to remain as you are, but you are neither Gorean nor free. The Gorean man will accept no compromise on your femininity, not from a slave. She will be what he wishes, and that is a woman, fully, and his. If necessary, you will be whipped or starved. You may fight your Master. He will, if he wishes, allow this to prolong the sport of your conquest., but in the end, it is you who are slave, it is you who will lose.”

Are you purposely misunderstanding things? Plenty of women like to be chased. Literally. They like to be overpowered by a man. He is stronger and will win in the end. But she likes to fight and have him take what's his. Having some fun with your woman does not equate to bdsm.

Ever seen a man throw the ball with his dog? Ever seen him do the throwing motion but not actually throw the ball? See the confused look on the dogs face? Guess why the man would do this. For his own enjoyment. Nothing to do with bdsm.

Are you insane? What has your example got to do with starving and feeding women to some horrible beast? What has that got to do with Free Women hesitating to go to Gatherings because they were threatened with bodily harm or force capture? What do you think BDSM is? It is having some fun with your woman or man (for the Mistress).

Nope. Honor prevents me from ignoring such behavour in the Sagas and in real life by Goreans for the love of Gorean Morality. I will travel with the BDSM crowd only, where we have strict codes, a Master Morality and formally taught skillsets in what we practice. When we gather we don't just stand around protecting our girls or being afraid of what might happen. We may like to be free and have fun in all kinds of wonderful ways but we're not insane.

No starving of women or beatings to an inch of her life or feeding them to something.

_____________________________

When her will bends to yours she will blossom like a flower under the warm spring rain and bright radiant morning star. She will surrender her all to you and lay in your arms thankful to join her soul with yours, her Master.

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RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/16/2011 3:03:52 PM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Are you insane? What has your example got to do with starving and feeding women to some horrible beast? What has that got to do with Free Women hesitating to go to Gatherings because they were threatened with bodily harm or force capture? What do you think BDSM is? It is having some fun with your woman or man (for the Mistress).

Nope. Honor prevents me from ignoring such behavour in the Sagas and in real life by Goreans for the love of Gorean Morality. I will travel with the BDSM crowd only, where we have strict codes, a Master Morality and formally taught skillsets in what we practice. When we gather we don't just stand around protecting our girls or being afraid of what might happen. We may like to be free and have fun in all kinds of wonderful ways but we're not insane.

No starving of women or beatings to an inch of her life or feeding them to something.

Euhmmm, what the hell just happened here?

Now you're suddenly not a Gorean anymore because you've READ THE FUCKING BOOKS and realized that Goreans ain't nice and fluffy with their slaves and actually SEE them as chattel slaves?

OF COURSE Goreans feed slaves to the sleen.
OF COURSE Goreans lock slaves up in little boxes.
OF COURSE Goreans kill slaves when they're sufficiently annoyed at them.

Goreans see slaves as ANIMALS with no human rights whatsoever.
Which means they'll treat them as animals, and just as there are animal owners who love their dog and treat it as a part of the family, there are slave owners who will do so... but at the same time, just as there are animal owners who don't care about their animals and only use them, so there are slave owners who will do so.

The fact that you've been running around here for a year and a half proclaiming that your "slave" is NOT an animal but the precious little love of your life is EXACTLY the reason why people have been telling you from the get go that you're about as Gorean as a coffee table...

Glad you finally figured that out for yourself...

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 3/16/2011 3:05:29 PM >

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RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/16/2011 4:54:09 PM

Kirata

Posts: 7257
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Honor prevents me from ignoring such behavour in the Sagas and in real life by Goreans for the love of Gorean Morality. I will travel with the BDSM crowd only, where we have strict codes, a Master Morality and formally taught skillsets in what we practice. When we gather we don't just stand around protecting our girls or being afraid of what might happen. We may like to be free and have fun in all kinds of wonderful ways but we're not insane.

No starving of women or beatings to an inch of her life or feeding them to something.

In the books, Norman portrays Goreans as no less human than those of us on Earth, with all the traits of our baser nature, and with all our noble capacities as well. Things are what they are. And given a culture in which commercial slavery is legal, much will occur that is not to be recommended.

The philosophy requires of us not only that we accept our animal passions, but also that we live up to the higher capacities with which human nature is gifted. The consequences of failing to do so are many, both on Gor and on Earth, and it is simply ignorant to conclude that everything "in the books" must necessarily constitute an exemplar of Gorean philosophy.

But while it has been obvious since you first inflicted yourself on this forum that your interpretation of the books was at the level of a 5th grader, things have now reached a point where your characterization of the philosophy and morality of the Gorean Lifestyle has become explicitly insulting.

Get a fucking life. Doesn't your girl need her nails done or something?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/16/2011 5:51:23 PM >

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Post #: 243

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/16/2011 5:24:58 PM

eponavet

Posts: 406
Joined: 8/18/2006
Status: offline

Narcissistic personality disorder

Narcissistic personality disorder is a condition in which people have an inflated sense of self-importance and an extreme preoccupation with themselves.

The causes of this disorder are unknown. An overly sensitive personality and parenting problems may affect the development of this disorder.

Symptoms

A person with narcissistic personality disorder may:

•Take advantage of other people to achieve his or her own goals

•Have excessive feelings of self-importance

•Exaggerate achievements and talents

•Be preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love

•Have unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment

•Need constant attention and admiration

•Disregard the feelings of others, and have little ability to feel empathy

•Have obsessive self-interest

•Pursue mainly selfish goals

•React to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation

Signs and tests

Like other personality disorders, narcissistic personality disorder is diagnosed based on a psychological evaluation and the history and severity of the symptoms.

Treatment

Psychotherapy (for example, talk therapy) may help the affected person relate to other people in a more positive and compassionate way.

*copied from the first site that popped up on my search engine*

< Message edited by eponavet -- 3/16/2011 5:27:05 PM >

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RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/16/2011 5:40:55 PM

Kirata

Posts: 7257
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

copied from the first site that popped up on my search engine

FYI: See also here.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/16/2011 5:51:49 PM >

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RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/16/2011 6:24:15 PM

ElizabethAnne

Posts: 1711
Status: offline

Howdy Folks,

Well there ya have it; since Art is no longer a "Gorean Master", he is now BDSM, guess we can rejoice. He'll have no reason to post here. (always a silver lining)

Take Care,

Elizabeth

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Post #: 246

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/16/2011 6:42:33 PM

Bear0fAr

Posts: 170
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The philosophy requires of us not only that we accept our animal passions, but also that we live up to the higher capacities with which human nature is gifted. The consequences of failing to do so are many, both on Gor and on Earth, and it is simply ignorant to conclude that everything "in the books" must necessarily constitute an exemplar of Gorean philosophy.

We say it

, and say it

, and say it,

and they still (claim) to not get it.

Thanks for saying it again, Kirata.

_____________________________

Bear's Gorean Musings

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RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/16/2011 6:59:45 PM

Dinnardin

Posts: 387
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bear0fAr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The philosophy requires of us not only that we accept our animal passions, but also that we live up to the higher capacities with which human nature is gifted. The consequences of failing to do so are many, both on Gor and on Earth, and it is simply ignorant to conclude that everything "in the books" must necessarily constitute an exemplar of Gorean philosophy.

We say it , and say it , and say it , and say it, and they still (claim) to not get it.

Thanks for saying it again, Kirata.

Brick wall; apply directly to forehead
Brick wall; apply directly to forehead
Brick wall; apply directly to forehead
Brick wall; apply directly to forehead
Brick wall; apply directly to forehead

John, AKA Dinnardin

(in reply to Bear0fAr)

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RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/16/2011 10:02:38 PM

blacksword404

Posts: 1601
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

This is great and wonderful and stuff but let's get back on track.

Is BDSM part of the Sagas? What about this...I see sadism in whipped and starved in this context. I see BDSM style roleplay in "you may fight your Master. He will, if he wishes, allow this to prolong the sport..."
Wait right here...sport...this is what the Evil Black Hearted BDSM Leather Master does with his submissive, fun, sport, they are the same here, for his pleasure. But only his? No, many times I see the kajira uniformly enjoying her conquest and the pleasureable sport of her Master. I remember Tarl tying his kajira of the moment with leather bindings while she is laying helpless already, only for his "sport". Goreans, I give you the truth. You are free to get up and enjoy the pleasure of a Gorean without losing your vir..I mean morality.

quote:

On page 12 of Tribesman of Gor, “You are slave," I said. "You are owned. You are a female. You will be forced to be a woman. If you were free, and Gorean, you might be permitted by men to remain as you are, but you are neither Gorean nor free. The Gorean man will accept no compromise on your femininity, not from a slave. She will be what he wishes, and that is a woman, fully, and his. If necessary, you will be whipped or starved. You may fight your Master. He will, if he wishes, allow this to prolong the sport of your conquest., but in the end, it is you who are slave, it is you who will lose.”

Are you purposely misunderstanding things? Plenty of women like to be chased. Literally. They like to be overpowered by a man. He is stronger and will win in the end. But she likes to fight and have him take what's his. Having some fun with your woman does not equate to bdsm.

Ever seen a man throw the ball with his dog? Ever seen him do the throwing motion but not actually throw the ball? See the confused look on the dogs face? Guess why the man would do this. For his own enjoyment. Nothing to do with bdsm.

Are you insane? What has your example got to do with starving and feeding women to some horrible beast? What has that got to do with Free Women hesitating to go to Gatherings because they were threatened with bodily harm or force capture? What do you think BDSM is? It is having some fun with your woman or man (for the Mistress).

Nope. Honor prevents me from ignoring such behavour in the Sagas and in real life by Goreans for the love of Gorean Morality. I will travel with the BDSM crowd only, where we have strict codes, a Master Morality and formally taught skillsets in what we practice. When we gather we don't just stand around protecting our girls or being afraid of what might happen. We may like to be free and have fun in all kinds of wonderful ways but we're not insane.

No starving of women or beatings to an inch of her life or feeding them to something.

Exactly what does it have to do with free women going to gatherings since i never brought it up? Maybe you need to read what you are responding to. Nowhere did I mention that.

You seem to like to change what you claim to be depending on which you think will give you the most leverage in an argument. You are right that Gorean don't tend to have a formal skillset. Precisely because we don't tend to beat each other for pleasure. So that is not needed the way it is in bdsm circles.

So are you claiming that Goreans are insane? And what exactly do you claim we are afraid of?

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

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RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/16/2011 10:28:52 PM

CalifChick

Posts: 10635
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

I never top. ...In short, I "Dom" and never "Top" or "Bottom". See the accepted descriptions I quote below to support that truth.

(snip)

Your comment on Topping is incorrect as it relates to me or star. Nothing I said describes "Topping" and furthermore "Topping" or "Domming" or Mastering is not predicated on the use of any specific tool or skill or technique and certainly you will agree that "Domming" is not exclusive to the "Leather Master" with official vest, hat and boots. Instead, "Topping" occurs when sub asks someone to top her; the sub is actually in charge!

Tammy, you really should go back to the dark pink font. Seriously, it's not hard to pick out that whoever wrote that has not a fucking clue on what topping is, on what "domming" is (what the fuck IS that anyway - we can only assume you mean BEING a dominant), on what being a leather master is (and it has zero to do with "using" leather), jeezus.

Either that or let Art be on top once in a while, his brain needs a rest from banging the headboard.

Cali

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

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RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/16/2011 10:58:06 PM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

What do you think BDSM is? It is having some fun with your woman or man (for the Mistress).

You understand nothing about BDSM in the broader sense if you think that is the be all, end all... or even what draws many/ most to the so called 'lifestyle'. It's a big umbrella that encompasses everything from 'having some fun' to TPE.
BTW, you do realize that plenty of folks into BDSM are gay and/or poly, right?

quote:

I will travel with the BDSM crowd only, where we have strict codes, a Master Morality and formally taught skillsets in what we practice.

Again.... WTF are you talking about and just who is 'we'? Where can I find these 'strict codes' that apply to all BDSM folks? I must have lost my 'Official Subbie' handbook, can you send me a copy?

As for 'Master Morality', why would you need one if BDSM is 'just having fun with your woman or man'? Please make up your mind, if you can. I won't even really get into 'formally taught skillsets'. While there are awesome classes available in particular types of play, not everyone learns that way. There is no 'formal' outside of the rules used by specific groups/ communities, which are different for every one. There is no such thing as a universal 'BDSM Master/ Mistress Degree' outside of scams that target people who don't know what the hell they are doing in the first place.

quote:

When we gather we don't just stand around protecting our girls or being afraid of what might happen. We may like to be free and have fun in all kinds of wonderful ways but we're not insane.

If you think the BDSM 'community' is a big love in and that there are no bad apples, you are very much mistaken. There are users and even rapists or worse that sometimes show up at BDSM events or are even *gasp* part of a given group because they have not been outed for what they are.

As for the 'protecting our girls' part, most D types of both sexes that I know sure as hell keep an eye on the /s types that are with them in public venues, unless said venue is a familiar munch or closed party. For that matter, the /s types also keep an eye on each other, and the experienced ones sure as hell watch out for the newbies.

quote:

No starving of women or beatings to an inch of her life or feeding them to something.

Being fed to imaginary creatures, no. Starving or very bad beatings, it happens. The fact that you do not know that just underscores your ignorance.

< Message edited by WyldHrt -- 3/16/2011 11:44:02 PM >

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"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

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RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 4/17/2011 7:29:45 PM

MastiffofAr

Posts: 54
Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Oregon
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Wow. That was a lot of reading.

I believe I can be the example that this discussion may lack. I have participated in BDSM activities, though some time ago. I haven't in awhile. I've owned slaves that have lived with me, though again, not for many years now. During all that time, I have believed in Gorean philosophy and lived my life accordingly as best I could. So obviously, at least to me, it cannot be a subset of BDSM. Even though I also believe they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

That takes nothing away from ones TPE and how one involved in BDSM may live their life. It may very well be a lifestyle which controls their actions, hopefully for a societal good. It would, seriously, interest me if there were written somewhere the details of a philosophy that sets this forth. I would like to see if it encompasses how one lives their life in its entirety.

By the way, I wrote a humor column on this once, so if you can laugh about this discussion, you might give it a read:

http://www.pantheus.com/TGV/archive899/TGV/humor.shtml

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RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 4/18/2011 11:51:14 AM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings

There is definitely instances of what we could call BDSM in the books, bondage is very prevalent and there are instances of both Masters and slaves enjoying pain, if not for the pain itself then for the way it has to enforce the Master and slave relationship. There is one scene where as slave is captured, banded and beaten, later the Master asks her how she feels about it and she says that some of what had been done to her was very painful, but in a way she had enjoyed even the painful parts as they did enforce his will on her. I do not remember the exact quote or which book it was from but it was something along those lines.

It is also mentioned that at times free men enjoyed having their slave wield the whip in the bedroom and play erotic games with that. So yes in my mind there is plenty of instances of BDSM in the Gor books. Many argue for the whole a Gorean man is strict but seldom cruel, however to me BDSM is not cruel. I engage in BDSM myself and it is not cruel, it is a pleasurable and fun thing, how can that be cruel. I do not think a Gorean man engaging in a bit of erotic pain play with his slave is cruel. What would be cruel would be a Master coming home after a bad day at work and just beating the crap out of his slave, or if he delighted in really hurting her for no other reasons than to hurt her, that would be cruel, a bit of BDSM play is not cruel and yes the Gor books are full of it.

What however is important to remember is that the BDSM aspects are well play, they are not a part of being Gorean. In the books many Goreans are shown to be fond of board games, that do not make playing board games Gorean in an off itself. I once explained the difference to a poster like this some Gorean enjoy BDSM other Goreans enjoy stamp collecting. There is nothing wrong in my mind with enjoying BDSM if one is Gorean, but the BDSM is not part of being Gorean, it is an activity that some Goreans enjoy.

I wish you well.

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

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