RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, really. it is really, really true.

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RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, really. it is really, really true.

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, really. it is really, really true.

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RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 11:51:53 AM

Arturas

Posts: 1332
Joined: 2/21/2009
Status: offline

Greetings Camerius,

Ah, yes. The often referred to Marauders of Gore pages. Part of page 8 through part of page 10 to be exact? So, that small passage you feel is a unique subject or even superset of some serious other works, pages and pages and volumes aready done on this subject throughout the ages? Are you and Istarr the same person?

It was "Gratuitous Sex" you spoke earlier about and you had that definition wrong and we got you straighened out on that. Now you claim BDSM masters are sexually gratified by "punishing" their girls and that is completely false. You should consider having an good understanding of any subject you pretend to be the master of.

As for the origin of Gorean Morality, the few pages you refer to in Mararders briefly skim the ideas in some of the Nietzche works including "Beyond Good and Evil", "We Philologists Complete Works of Fredrick Nietzsche", "Thus Spake Zarathustra A Book for All and None" also "The Prince" by Machialvelli, "Utopia" by Sir Thomas More. Shall I go on? No. I must return to the real world now and stay for a time.

"Crumbling before your logic?" I think not.

You are also starting to be entertaining if you would just refrain from using curse words in your posting, it makes you so small and I am sure you can do better. Most BDSM masters would know better, Gorean or not.

Well wishes,

Arturas

(quoted material removed - M21)

< Message edited by ModTwentyOne -- 3/9/2011 12:41:00 AM >

_____________________________

When her will bends to yours she will blossom like a flower under the warm spring rain and bright radiant morning star. She will surrender her all to you and lay in your arms thankful to join her soul with yours, her Master.

(in reply to Camerius)

Post #: 61

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 12:05:10 PM

Camerius

Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline

He won't find a single quote that supports him on on any of the points you're discussing with him, nor on the part that John Norman didn't invent Gorean philosophy or any other claims he has made so far. Neither will he because they don't exist. You know that as does the readers and followers of this thread or forum, Ishtar, and I think it has dawned on the dude as well. Being an intelligent human being and all.

Using a *I reject your reality and substitute my own* (TM Adam Savage of Mythbusters fame) appraoch combined with a logical fallacy POV don't help much either. Still, don't mean that he should not be held up on responsability or get away from what he has stated.

Maybe that is the only or best way to learn from his own mistakes.

I hope everything is good with you and I wish you well,

Camerius

_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 62

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 12:13:20 PM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Camerius

He won't find a single quote that supports him on on any of the points you're discussing with him, nor on the part that John Norman didn't invent Gorean philosophy or any other claims he has made so far. Neither will he because they don't exist. You know that as does the readers and followers of this thread or forum, Ishtar, and I think it has dawned on the dude as well. Being an intelligent human being and all.

Using a *I reject your reality and substitute my own* (TM Adam Savage of Mythbusters fame) appraoch combined with a logical fallacy POV don't help much either. Still, don't mean that he should not be held up on responsability or get away from what he has stated.

Maybe that is the only or best way to learn from his own mistakes.

I hope everything is good with you and I wish you well,

Camerius

Of course he wont find quotes to support his own illusions, because that's exactly what the claims he's making are: imaginary fabrications of his own mind.

It's interesting to see that his fabrications are becoming more and more erratic, and have moved from debating something as subjective as philosophical interpretations to making actual false factual claims like the existence of non-existing pictures, and the fact that you and I would be the same person...

His illusions seem to become more and more complicated and less and less substantial in a feable attempt to maintain a grip on the fantasy world he's created for himself.
It's rather interesting to see how he's coming closer and closer to going completely off the edge, I wonder where this break-down is going to lead to eventually...

I too wish you well and hope that everything in your life is as you would want it to be,

Ishtar

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 3/8/2011 12:51:47 PM >

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to Camerius)

Post #: 63

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 12:35:51 PM

Camerius

Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline

Nopes, Isthar is from Belgium and I'm from Denmark. She's a woman and I'm a man. Too I have talked with her on and off for years now. If you're in doubt if we're the same, ask some of the men and women here that have met her in person (which I haven't), and let them tell you if we're the same. I highly doubt that she's a 6' 6" Tall, heavily tattoo'ed 43 year old Danish Warehouseworker & forkliftdriver. ;O)

That passage that you so seemingly dismiss, even as I read it, disregards, are what explains Gorean morality as counter to most Earth moralities. Note that it says Gorean morality, NOT master or anothing other morality, in those two pages. It gives you the clues at to why it is Gorean (not just by name but it helps defining it to BE Gorean), what it encurages *honor, courage, hardness and strength* versus most of the Earthen ones, and what the basics are when it comes to understanding of the differences between Earthen moralities and Gorean morality.

The interesting pa here is that within those 2 pages, not only do John Norman outline the basics of Gorean morality, it's also makes it clear that you're wrong in your assumption of BDSM'ers having a Gorean morality. Which they don't have. Why? Because they're NOT GOREAN!

While they very well might have, possess and live a master morality, they do not have a Gorean one, simply because they're...yes...not...correctly...Gorean. So, if they're NOT Gorean, how can they then live a Gorean morality?

See the line of logic here?

And BDSM masters don't use *sexual gratification*? Dude, now I have to ask you if YOU are serious?

A very large portion of BDSM is based on sexual play, and on giving and recieving pain within that framework. All of that is to get *off*. It is for and mainly about pure sexual gratification. How do I know this? Well, truth be told before I started out down this road, I was involved within the BDSM scene over here in Denmark. Much of my experinece in the fields of BDSM and kink is from that period of time, as well as having read quite a few books on the subject. My reasoning for being there was that I thought that I was part of that scene (which is how many BDSM'ere percieve their community as), which I found out later that I weren't. I was different in many way. I didn't play that I own a slave, I didn't enjoy enforcing or inflicting pain on someone else, be that sexual play or for sexual gratification.

If you want, I was a wolf, not mean't to be a dog. I have no problems with someone having or enjoying BDSM, pain play or the likes, to each their own. It's just not something I find pleasure or enjoyment from or in, and as suh I don't engage in it.

The books you list don't mean much because they're not Gorean morality. Yes, they're fragments of it, that John Norman used to build or firm it around, but, and here's the thing, they're not exclusively Gorean. Remember that I asked you to provide books, sources or text that were about Gorean philosophy in its fullness and whole and not just fragements?

So far you haven't.

Your arguments are crumbeling before the logic proof from Swordsmen of Gor, which I types out to you as proof in that you statement of the heading of this very thread AND your OP AND your assumptions were...wrong. That this is provided by a book quote, that it explains it in a way that can't be misunderstood and most of all, that it's from John Norman himself syaing this.

Which means that we now have a scale to weighten the arguments in and with, and I can see which end of the scale is the one with the most weight. And dude, it's surely not yours. ;O)

I'm not a BDSM master.....*laughs*....I'm a Gorean man.

Besides, where are those sources for backing up your claim that John Norman wans't the inventor of Gorean philosophy?

Camerius

(quoted material removed - M21)

< Message edited by ModTwentyOne -- 3/9/2011 12:42:09 AM >

_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to Arturas)

Post #: 64

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 1:01:38 PM

Camerius

Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline

I'd really dislike if we were the same, Ishtar.

The thought of you being 215 lbs., bald, with tattoo's galore and having grown a dick between the legs just don't "sit" right with me...neither does the image that I just got in my head... /laughs

I wish you well,

Camerius

_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 65

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 1:02:03 PM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Camerius

I'd really dislike if we were the same, Ishtar.

The thought of you being 215 lbs., bald, with tattoo's galore and having grown a dick between the legs just don't "sit" right with me...neither does the image that I just got in my head... /laughs

I wish you well,

Camerius

It would certainly make some of the past *cough* flirtatious conversations we've had rather... awkward... wouldn't you say?

Yes, as Camerius said:

He's from Denmark, I'm from Belgium, we've never met.
Though I do believe that Camerius has met people offline who are befriended to people that I've met offline, which means that we have over-lapping groups offline that can confirm that we are who we say we are online.
I'm 5'10" (which I was closer to 6' though

), with only 3 tattoos can hardly be called "heavily" tattooed, and I'm a housewife...
I have female parts, haven't had my head shaven bold since reaching double digits in age, and would never wear white socks.

As far as I know, Camerius and I don't even have any similarity in our often imperfect style of writing English, because we don't share a mother tongue, though I think we do share 2 secondary languages (English and German?).

"Arturian's" claim that we are the same person is about as stupid as his claim that he has seen pictures of me that don't exist, and couldn't even possible exist...
Especially seeing that he's got not even one shred of evidence for any of the weird and unsubstantiated claims he's making besides the fantasies he's making up himself...

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 3/8/2011 1:05:13 PM >

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to Camerius)

Post #: 66

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 1:07:48 PM

Camerius

Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline

Nopes, no Gearman for me as second language, Ishtar.

It's Danish as mother tongue and then English, Swedish, Norwegian as secondaries. I do know a few smackerings of German, but not enough to be a consistent speaker.

I wish you well,

_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 67

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 1:12:42 PM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Camerius

Nopes, no Gearman for me as second language, Ishtar.

It's Danish as mother tongue and then English, Swedish, Norwegian as secondaries. I do know a few smackerings of German, but not enough to be a consistent speaker.

I wish you well,

Ah see, then English is the only language we share.
My German is hardly good enough to be considered fluent, but I can manage a simple conversation in it.
As far as Danish, Swedish and Norwegian goes, I have a notion of what some random number of words mean, because they're related to some of the other languages I know, but that's about it.

What's cool about that though is that, if you and I really where the same person, we'd speak a grand total of 7 languages, most of them absolutely fluent, and would have a general notion of the basics of at least 2 others...

That's pretty impressive all by itself.

I wish you well,

Ishtar

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 3/8/2011 1:14:28 PM >

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to Camerius)

Post #: 68

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 1:19:00 PM

Camerius

Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline

I'll stay with what I've got, Ishtar....damn ze Gearmans....

And yeah, some of those conversations we had would have been odd, to say the least, but then some of them were (thinks of a tail). /laughs

I wish you well,

Camerius

_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 69

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 1:23:19 PM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Camerius

but then some of them were (thinks of a tail). /laughs

OMG!

I can't believe you even remember that!

That's what... getting close to a decade ago now?

Funny thing is that through all those years and all the changes of computes... I still have a link to that page.

I wish you well,

Ishtar

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to Camerius)

Post #: 70

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 1:26:20 PM

VideoAdminTheta

Posts: 2866
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline

Please trim your quotes down a bit.

Thank you

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 71

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 1:43:23 PM

Camerius

Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminTheta

Please trim your quotes down a bit.

Thank you

Will do.

I wish you well,

Camerius

_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to VideoAdminTheta)

Post #: 72

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 1:48:51 PM

Camerius

Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline

A decade? Let me see, I *think* you were 18-19 at the time when I came across you on alt.com one night back then. Can't even remember how old you are now and you have taken off your profile so I can't look it up (sneaky you).

But yeah, that pig tail still makes me laugh...and even more so that you still got that link for it...

I wish you well,

Camerius

_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 73

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 1:54:27 PM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Camerius

A decade? Let me see, I *think* you were 18-19 at the time when I came across you on alt.com one night back then. Can't even remember how old you are now and you have taken off your profile so I can't look it up (sneaky you).

But yeah, that pig tail still makes me laugh...and even more so that you still got that link for it...

I wish you well,

Camerius

I had to hide my profile and it will probably stay that way for a while... custody issues...

I was 18 then, and I'm 26 now, so it's a little under 8 years... not quite a decade... but getting there...
Funny thing is that it both feels much longer ago, and much more recent than that.

The weirdest thing I still ponder on when I think back to days is how unbelievable different my life could have turned out if you would have been a less honorable man than you are.

I wish you well,

Ishtar

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 3/8/2011 1:56:33 PM >

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to Camerius)

Post #: 74

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 1:57:59 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Heh, you two are welcome to continue dancing with the OP, but some of us have learned it doesn't matter what you post. Just like right now, since my pic is a photoshop experiment amira did blending me with a tree, I will likely be claimed delusional. I had a pic that she photoshopped herself into, and Arturas went all off on that pic, rather than actually try and discuss things.

To bring it back to the subject, I agree with Camerius, to an extent, but I also believe that "sadistic" things Norman was writing about are the pathological kind, and not the sexual. I believe that BDSM is a thing you do, and Gorean is something that you are, or are not.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

(in reply to Camerius)

Post #: 75

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 2:01:14 PM

Camerius

Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline

Well, who knows? /shrugs

Me? A less honorable man than I am? Seems like I'm an even bigger asshole and fucker then... ;O)

I wish you well,

Camerius

_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Post #: 76

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 2:09:13 PM

Camerius

Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Heh, you two are welcome to continue dancing with the OP, but some of us have learned it doesn't matter what you post. Just like right now, since my pic is a photoshop experiment amira did blending me with a tree, I will likely be claimed delusional. I had a pic that she photoshopped herself into, and Arturas went all off on that pic, rather than actually try and discuss things.

To bring it back to the subject, I agree with Camerius, to an extent, but I also believe that "sadistic" things Norman was writing about are the pathological kind, and not the sexual. I believe that BDSM is a thing you do, and Gorean is something that you are, or are not.

Live well,
Orion

Tal Orion,

Yes, the *sadistics* that John Norman mentions is of the pathological variety. He also, and something most seems to have missed was that he doesn't denie that it even is found on Gor or between a master and his slave. After all given the wide range that we as humans have in both behaviour and in sexual tastes, then it would only be logical to to assume that it was found on Gor too.

Just that, as the quote provides, most don't and didn't use pain infliction as a means from or in sexual gratification. And rightly as you mention, BDSM is something you do, while Gorean is a being.

I wish you well,

Camerius

_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 77

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 2:13:15 PM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I believe that BDSM is a thing you do, and Gorean is something that you are, or are not.

See that's exactly what I think too.

Goreans can engage in all sorts of activities, without that making the activities Gorean, or the person un-Gorean.

I know that "Arturian" will never get that, because he's not here to understand anything, but instead trying to find justifications for the doubts he's feeling about the fantasies he's made up about himself for himself.
His fantasy world seems to be falling apart, so he's seeking for something external to blame for that, which is why he gets so hostile whenever he's confronted with the absolute inaccuracy of the claims he's making.

I remember him freaking out about the supposed falsehood of your picture, which was rather absurd as well, seeing that you never made a secret of the fact that Amira photoshopped that picture. He was trying to catch you on a "lie" by pointing out something you've always openly stated and then fell apart when you pointed that out.

I don't think debating him has any point whatsoever, as far as convincing him goes, but when he tries to pretend to be the all knowing "Gorean Master" to newbies, I do think it's worth the effort to blow up some of his fabrications publicly so he doesn't get the chance to give people a completely inaccurate first impression of things Gorean...

I had people steer me in the right direction when I just started to learn about these things, and I still appreciate that, lest I had gotten lost and given up on Gor based on role-play sites...
I don't mind repaying the favor to other newcomers by equally pointing out where NOT to look for factual information on Gor...

Besides that... I'm sick in bed and bored out of my mind today.

Ishtar

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 78

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 5:53:40 PM

Arturas

Posts: 1332
Joined: 2/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

Note that it says Gorean morality, NOT master or anothing other morality, in those two pages. It gives you the clues at to why it is Gorean (not just by name but it helps defining it to BE Gorean), what it encurages *honor, courage, hardness and strength* versus most of the Earthen ones,

First, when Norman speaks of Earthen Ones he is speaking of the modern age Slave Morality. Not the Master Morality I have spoken of. It is still good to fully understand the context and what Norman means before pretending to be a master of the topic.

So you say, Honor, courage, hardness and strength are unique to the Gorean Morality (and therefore unavailable to BDSM Masters, I suppose).
They are not. Here is the proof. Let's take a single line from "Beyond Good and Evil"

quote:

The dangerous and disquieting point has been reached when the greater, more manifold, more com- prehensive life IS LIVED BEYOND the old morality; the ‘individual’ stands out, and is obliged to have recourse to his own law-giving, his own arts and artifices for self-pres- ervation, self-elevation, and self-deliverance.

This is just the tip of the iceberg and it speaks to the harshness and strength and greatness (elevation) of the individual. This is common ground with Gorean Morality and it comes from the Morality of the Stong, Harsh and Great Greeko-Roman world. The Golden Age. The age Norman patterned the world of Gor from. This is where this Master Morality originates. Indeed, all classic philosophy originates from this time period including our much vaunted Gorean Morality.

Many BDSM masters live by the Master Morality or they would not be so and as such share much with the Gorean through a common origin in thought and philosophy. The BDSM nomenclature does not indicate how a Master lives but the fact that he has made great effort to learn the tools, obtain knowledge and aquire skills for the discipline of his slave (in the case of a level 4 master) and/or the enhancment of their high sexuality (remember Norman's description of Goreans).

I say this to bring to light the fact that non-Goreans also share this morality from the ancient masters and these include the BDSM masters who also live a life of high achievement, high intelligence, high natural sexuality and are of both genders. Many Goreans off and on this website commonly go to BDSM clubs to learn how to practice and do the things cited in the Sagas not to cause pain to their slaves or partners but as an outlet to the high sexuality Norman talks about when he defines the Gorean. But, they live under the Master Morality. That is why BDSM Gorean Masters are double the pleasure. The knowledge of how to do things does not obviate our knowledge of why we do them.

Arturas.

_____________________________

When her will bends to yours she will blossom like a flower under the warm spring rain and bright radiant morning star. She will surrender her all to you and lay in your arms thankful to join her soul with yours, her Master.

(in reply to Camerius)

Post #: 79

RE: BDSM is not practiced by Goreans. Really. No, reall... - 3/8/2011 5:56:18 PM

Ishtarr

Posts: 1041
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
So you say, Honor, courage, hardness and strength are unique to the Gorean Morality (and therefore unavailable to BDSM Masters, I suppose).

He said no such thing... stop lying if you want to have a debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

an outlet to the high sexuality Norman talks about when he defines the Gorean.

In the quote you are refering to here, Norman defined the reader of the Gor series as being highly sexual.
He says nothing about Goreans.
And reading the Gor series does NOT make a person a Gorean.

Norman never defined Goreans as being highly sexual, seeing that he described Gorean Free Women to be the absolute opposite of that.
Some Goreans in the books where highly sexual, some where not, and Norman describes his intended audience as being highly sexual.

Again, stop lying and deliberately mis-representing facts.

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 3/8/2011 6:05:24 PM >

_____________________________

Aren't you glad we got smart bombs, it's a damn good thing that our bombs are clever

It's a shame that our kids are dumb, but our bombs are smart, what a lucky thing now

(in reply to Arturas)

Post #: 80

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