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Reading the Books and Being Gorean


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Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/18/2011 10:36:56 AM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: online 		Tal and greetings all...

This came up in the other post I just replied to and I said there that I thought it deserved its own topic. So....here it is.

Most of us, and pretty much all Goreans, agree that you need to read the books before you should be considered Gorean. I agree. The question is, do you have to have read all of them?

As I stated in the other post, the series stopped at Magicians of Gor for many years. Many people had read all the books up to that point and considered themselves and were considered by others to be Gorean at that point. Then Witness was published. Were all the people who had not yet read it no longer Gorean? Did they magically become Gorean again after they read it?

Things stopped there for a few years and then repeated themselves when Norman wrote Prize of Gor? How long do you have once a book is published, if you have to have read all the books to be Gorean, before you are no longer Gorean? A day? A week? A month? A year? How long?

The books were also partially rewritten. If you have not read the new editions are you now only partly Gorean because things have changed? What if you have read only some of the new editions? Does that mean you have changed less than those who have read none...or changed more?

Are we having fun yet? <grins>

So...what do other people think about this. I will stop by when I get a chance again as life lets me to see what you say and knowing me, make some comments of my own and give my own opinions at that point.

Be well all....

Malkinius

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/18/2011 11:15:25 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I still have not read Witness, not sure about others. I believe it is a journey. Heck when I got to Raiders, I thought I had it all figured out. I was pleasantly surprised that I was incorrect. I have read to Magicians, and I still do not believe I have it all figured out. Maybe that is a good thing. As I learn something, I have found I am less likely to discuss it, and instead just implement it. I believe the level of knowledge of Gorean morality, as presented in the series, is the most important. Some seem to grasp it very easily, and others (like myself) need clue by fours ever so often.

Live well,
Orion

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/18/2011 11:29:08 AM   
FrankAr


Posts: 602
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Malkinius,

I think that Gor is an evolution process by which every person, whether free or slave, has to continue learning. Without learning, they stagnate. If a person informs others that the last time they read the novels was about a decade, then let us face facts that not every one has photographic memory....sometimes I can't even remember what I did last year. Like many have pointed out, you have to read the novels and not just once, but over and over to at least glimpse into the depth of the foundations of what really the saga does contain.

If people have stopped reading the novels after the first 10 or so, then they have missed out on the growth of Tarl and Kumchuck and Talena. This is like reading the first 5 paragraphs of a newspaper article and trying to have a conversation with someone whom has read all the 45 paragraphs, you are just not in the same league. Does this mean that they are not classed as Gorean after reading the first 25, no. It does lessen their knowledge of situations and the outcomes of the later novels that might have an outcome that explains why A and B and C did happen.

I do find though by having the versions online and changing the structure by adding some and deleting parts of the novels that have already been written on pages. It does change the overall structure, sometimes only minutely. If you have the money, then by all means have the novels and then pay for the online versions as well.

Be well.

Frank Ar.


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Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/18/2011 12:07:11 PM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline 		Tal all,

The way I see it goes like this;

The core of Gorean philosophy and understanding is set, explained and pretty much delivered with a bowtie in the first 10 books of the series. If a person has read those, agreed in fullness, understood in depth and accepted those philosophical theses and truths that are found within those 10 books. To then have them become the core in and of that persons life and dealing, then that person is Gorean to my mind. Any new book read and any new day lived after that has just become an elaboration, understanding and acceptance of what it is to be and think Gorean.

It's a matter of basic evolution.

Reason being that just like we do on a daily basis in evolving in being, thinking and living Gorean while elaborating on that both here or elsewhere, in an external way by giving outlet to our individual views as well as internal by contemplating we have in the books and what that means to our lives, personal perspective and understandings of same.

The same is going for the books. In that each book after the 10 first is another bit to add into the grander Gorean puzzle. That each book contains something new. Be it explanations, clarifications or elaborations for us to understand Gorean philosophy and the following concepts by examples, while at the same time the work is about evolving both the overall story and plot.

In other words, it's a question of basic evolution. Of expantion and clarification from John Norman each time we get a new book in the series or that one of the older ones being revisioned by him. Just as it is a question of evolution, of expanding and clarification for us. In learning, understand and live each day as whom and what we are.

So when does one stop being Gorean? The most obvious answer is when we stops breathing. Either that or that you, yourself, make the call that you are no longer Gorean. If neither is done, then you will continue to live and learn and elaborate on what being Gorean means to you. Just like it is in the matter of the books and any new ones that follows. However, they will end the day that John Norman concludes the series with a big fat *The End* on the last page of his last book or that he dies.

Not that either of the above will end all matters Gorean. It will however just be the ending of the series, while we will continue to evolve in living and understanding.

Being Gorean is not an end result, just like it isn't an end result in growing up and become an adult. It just means that you have entered another or different stage of your life and that from this you will new things and matters to learn and understand to continue on your life.

That opportunity is what you get with each new books or any old book being revisioned.

To evolve and to continue.


I wish you well,

  Camerius



_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/18/2011 12:11:37 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Master Malkinius,

I think you have to read the bulk of the series but more importantly you have to read them with the right mindset in place. That of looking for the underlying life philosophy contained within. If you read all the books and just try to mimic the social customs or only implement certain aspects then you miss the boat.

well wishes
kisshou

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/18/2011 2:22:10 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		To me anyone who calls themselves Gorean would in fact try and read ALL the books. But I also don't put much stock in someone reading the books but ultimately it depends on do you get the books outside of the surface plot. Have you stopped and really analyzed what you find and how you interpret it. I mean any Joe blow can read a book but we all know the the understanding of Gorean comes from what is not readily stated in the words. How many people have seen Nar as simple a talking spider??

Also I think each person has a concept the are drawn too and understand better than the other things in the books. For example for the longest time before I made the switch in my head to being Free, I knew and still know the best the concept of the slave and the slavery. Many free people don't take the time to understand those currents because the concepts ofbeing free are more important to them some focus on their concept of master morality, some focus on self identification within the Gorean understandings, some focus on the defined of honor and integrity and some the relationship of people is what draws them to identifying as Gorean.

As many know I am a firm believer of reading the books in order to identify as Gorean. Slaves to me have it easy. They simple belong to agorean and they have no need to figure out their perception of identifying as Gorean. Reading the books to me is like eating the correct balance of food to get all you nutrition. Sure you can survive without all your nutrition but you are the deficient.

There are so many Gorean explanations out there nowadays people can get by on the cliffnote version of understanding gor but without their own interpretation of the actual source material they are deficient. It may not be known by anyone but you, but to me that is the most important person who knows. How you handle being deficient should tell you the type of person you are. Only you can decide if you are comfortable with that answer.

You is general. I remember when men used to come here and indicate they not only read the books but studied them. You didn't have to take there word for it as it showed in everyone of their discussion participation. Now we discuss how many books do we HAVE to read to be considered Gorean. Lots of change it seems.

Angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/19/2011 8:03:52 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16616
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quote:

So...what do other people think about this.


Well, of course, you have your Old School Goreans, your New Goreans, Neo-Goreans, Nouveau-Goreans, Greek Orthodox Goreans, Episco-Goreans, Existential Goreans, Shotokan Goreans, Magician Goreans.....

Real Goreans wear belts with a different color stripe for each book they've read.

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Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/19/2011 8:49:34 PM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 387
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

So...what do other people think about this.


Well, of course, you have your Old School Goreans, your New Goreans, Neo-Goreans, Nouveau-Goreans, Greek Orthodox Goreans, Episco-Goreans, Existential Goreans, Shotokan Goreans, Magician Goreans.....

Real Goreans wear belts with a different color stripe for each book they've read.


you forgot the Al Goreans, DeLorean Goreans, and Korean Goreans.  . 

Tarl and the Multi-Coloured Dream Belt?

John, AKA Dinnardin

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/20/2011 1:41:35 PM   
kajjirus


Posts: 130
Joined: 1/12/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings, Master Malkinius,

One does not think that it is necessary to read all of every book to understand and appreciate the Gorean philosophy. One does think, though, that it is important to understand that the way we are on Earth can only ever be an approximation of the Gorean milieu. The bulk of the books represent the attitudes and ideas of the 1960s and 1970s; if they were to be written today, there is no doubt that the entire structure of Gorean society would be different. For instance, Norman based many of his ideas about slaves and slavery on Roman ideas and practices: most Roman slaves were male and many were in positions where they exercised skills. They were still slave, though, and subject to the whim of their Owner, pretty much in any way.

It would be helpful, though, Master, if slaves (and the Free) were to use the books as means to discuss how their situation was to be realized on Earth.

With respect,

kajjirus

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/20/2011 3:30:51 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 1332
Joined: 2/21/2009
Status: offline 		FR

Greetings all,

The number of books read as a gauge of "Goreanism" is like gauging a man's "fatherism" by the number of kids he raised. Everyone is different and not the same when going into the series and everyone is different and not the same as they come out the other end at Magicians or the latter books, one is Gorean with Book 7 and another is never Gorean after Magicians. I personally think the Jason series is the best of the lot and some can be a great Gorean just with reading them. Someone said this is a journey and the journey is rarely the same for all and never stops with just the last book, whatever that is and nor is that 'last book' a guage. Actions are the true gauge of Goreanism.

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When her will bends to yours she will blossom like a flower under the warm spring rain and bright radiant morning star. She will surrender her all to you and lay in your arms thankful to join her soul with yours, her Master.

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/20/2011 4:15:02 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 7257
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

The number of books read as a gauge of "Goreanism" is like gauging a man's "fatherism" by the number of kids he raised.

What is "Goreanism" and what is "fatherism"?

K.

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/20/2011 5:29:02 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
The number of books read as a gauge of "Goreanism" is like gauging a man's "fatherism" by the number of kids he raised.

This.

Take me on the other side of the equation. I've read several of the books but I'm not a Gorean at all. Obviously that's a failed measurement of Goreanism. Even adding in the fact that I recognize and resonate with a significant number of major themes in those books doesn't change the fact that I'm not a Gorean and I wouldn't expect any Gorean community to recognize me as such. Whatever determines "community acceptance" has got to be more complicated than merely book count and similar philosophical outlooks -- for any community I'd think, not just Goreans.

Well, either that or I want MM to send me my striped belt.

_____________________________

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/20/2011 6:30:32 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		I agree with Kirata what is Goreanism?  Most people call it being Gorean or living Gorean.  Why?  In my opinion because  its a concept of individuality to them not some game to be recognized by others as Gorean.   That's what a lot of people miss.  This need lately of needing to be accepted or looking for validation tells me that its become a game of popularity rather than a very individual determination for self. 

This how many books does one have to read is really sad, because reading the books isn't for everyone else, it should be for you as an individual who is determining to identify as Gorean.  Its like being Gorean for some is a prize they are reaching for, when the prize comes from within not given to you by others.

To me, threads like this tell me that people just really don't understand WHY you read the books.  If you think its for others to check something off their Gorean determination list -- then you have sadly mistaken what it means to be Gorean.

I will say it again, it is really sad we have come to the question of how many books does someone HAVE to read to be considered Gorean.  It amazes me that people need the validation of others so badly that are trying to find the bare minimum of what would be accepted to read to be accepted by others. 

Here let's make it easy for everyone -- you only have to read ONE book.  There is that really what everyone wanted to hear?  We have a number and that is 1 and there ya go -- pick up your Gorean badge at the entrance.  Walk proud.

My god has this forum really fallen to this low?  This game of what is needed to be validated by others?

angel 

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 2/20/2011 6:31:54 PM >

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/20/2011 7:53:05 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 1332
Joined: 2/21/2009
Status: offline 		You or anyone who does not know what I mean by "Goreanism" in the context of the question "Reading the books and being Gorean" please drop me cmail.
Arturas

< Message edited by Arturas -- 2/20/2011 7:57:47 PM >

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When her will bends to yours she will blossom like a flower under the warm spring rain and bright radiant morning star. She will surrender her all to you and lay in your arms thankful to join her soul with yours, her Master.

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/20/2011 10:05:57 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
My god has this forum really fallen to this low?  This game of what is needed to be validated by others?
angel 
  Yes.  And this drives much of the interaction in this forum.

Adults - especially those who identify as Gorean - should have moved beyond simple posturing.

Most haven't.


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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/21/2011 8:26:53 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16616
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		All this said........

It's not a path to membership. There are no dues or certification.

But someone who reads only Tarnsman is going to continually be at odds with others, because that book alone is not going to relay Tarl's journey to become, finally, Gorean. Someone who reads through Marauders will have a much better idea, but only the beginning of that realization, not the richer exploration of someone familiar with Blood Brothers. Or Magicians. And someone who has read only Kajira, Slave Girl and Dancer is going to have a seriously skewed view of what it means to be Gorean relative to what many others will have read.

Really, this is only common sense. Reading David Copperfield alone doesn't make one a Dickens scholar, and someone going only by A Christmas Carol really knows nothing about Dickens' work. Someone who has read several of Dickens' novels knows something of it, but without A Tale of Two Cities and Bleak House is missing large pieces of that overview.

Nor is there anything necessarily wrong with that---only in mistaking one's own knowledge for something it isn't yet.

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/21/2011 8:29:57 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 37466
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Please Sir, I want some more.
Oliver Twist.

Who knew that this was at least a quadruple entendre?
Well said.

Hup Coppertarsk 


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For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 2/21/2011 12:09:16 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 8574
Joined: 1/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

All this said........

It's not a path to membership. There are no dues or certification.

But someone who reads only Tarnsman is going to continually be at odds with others, because that book alone is not going to relay Tarl's journey to become, finally, Gorean. Someone who reads through Marauders will have a much better idea, but only the beginning of that realization, not the richer exploration of someone familiar with Blood Brothers. Or Magicians. And someone who has read only Kajira, Slave Girl and Dancer is going to have a seriously skewed view of what it means to be Gorean relative to what many others will have read.

Really, this is only common sense. Reading David Copperfield alone doesn't make one a Dickens scholar, and someone going only by A Christmas Carol really knows nothing about Dickens' work. Someone who has read several of Dickens' novels knows something of it, but without A Tale of Two Cities and Bleak House is missing large pieces of that overview.

Nor is there anything necessarily wrong with that---only in mistaking one's own knowledge for something it isn't yet.




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۩ "The mind, once expanded to the dimensions of larger ideas, never returns to its original size." ۩
~Oliver Wendell Holmes~

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 3/6/2011 4:22:39 AM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

All this said........

It's not a path to membership. There are no dues or certification.

But someone who reads only Tarnsman is going to continually be at odds with others, because that book alone is not going to relay Tarl's journey to become, finally, Gorean. Someone who reads through Marauders will have a much better idea, but only the beginning of that realization, not the richer exploration of someone familiar with Blood Brothers. Or Magicians. And someone who has read only Kajira, Slave Girl and Dancer is going to have a seriously skewed view of what it means to be Gorean relative to what many others will have read.

Really, this is only common sense. Reading David Copperfield alone doesn't make one a Dickens scholar, and someone going only by A Christmas Carol really knows nothing about Dickens' work. Someone who has read several of Dickens' novels knows something of it, but without A Tale of Two Cities and Bleak House is missing large pieces of that overview.

Nor is there anything necessarily wrong with that---only in mistaking one's own knowledge for something it isn't yet.




As I mentioned, it's a matter of basic evolution. To evolve and continue....



I wish you well,

  Camerius


_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

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RE: Reading the Books and Being Gorean - 3/8/2011 10:49:40 PM   
Terrah


Posts: 372
Joined: 7/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hello all,

To be or not to be is that the real question? It is simply a matter of reading? You know I read all of the books up to the newest ones. I got quite a lot out of them, but what I came to understand most is the conversations with people. Ya know like you and me, them and they, he and she. Slaves or Free, everyone has some idea of what it means to be Gorean. Of course never mind we have to qualify ourselves which I did by studying the books to the point of knowing at a moments notice exactly what the Bazi tea served involved and how it was bastardized only by slaves who had no real clue it was not about a ceremony at all.

Okay, does that make me super Gorean? Heck no, it only makes me see myself as righteous enough to have read and understood it in the particular way I understood when I read it. Because I know the difference between a Tarn and a Bosk doesn't make any difference either. The honor codes that men possess and women too for that matter, the codes they live by, is that all just hoopla from the books? Partly. We have to see the lines that are not written in order to understand what is and is not Gorean? Are you for real? Who determines this crap anyhow?

I am proud to call myself Gorean because I read the books? Oh please. I have been talking to real people who have never read any part of the books that I would consider to be most Gorean in nature. It is the way they live. I think that is the gist of the situation. Be it slave or free, how is it you live and what you consider yourself to be is what matters, not if you read a series of books to get some deeper meaning into what is or is not Gorean by some standards others hold you to. In that sense I would be living through them, not myself and what my core values are, that is what makes me Gorean. If I live by what others think that would be a most non Gorean thing to do wouldn't it? I mean geesh it is about the power within and drives us to be what we are, strong or weak, sheep or wolves, powerful or submissive. One doesn't get that from a book, it is inherent in ourselves or how could you recognize it in the first place?

I have always said it is a great series written by a guy who had a good idea on how to make some money from his imagination, and did you actually think he did this to start a revolution or do it as a career when they first became popular and now they are popular again he is again writing more books. Uhmm I would do the same thing, let's face it Norman has made a killing on writing this stuff and I am certain he did not do it so others would follow some path found there-within. He didn't write for years do you actually believe he did not write because he needed a ten year break? Or is it more likely it had lost interest and sales, and when it began to make a come back, he is loyal to his readers and made a few more books? Believe what you like, it's just food for thought.

Terrah 


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